Seminole Golf Club-1931

[Sean_Tully]

Found this very interesting photo on TGIF and was surprised by the look of the bunkers considering that this photo is taken just 2 years after the course opened. It has been said that Pinehurst #2 and Seminole were two courses Ross was most involved in, so how do we get a better understanding for how these bunkers took shape at Seminole? Who was involved in the construction of the course?  Is this the first time the so called "California style" bunker was used back East? It would seem that given the look of these bunkers an article in a newspapers/magazines of that period might shed some light on the look of the bunkers.

Was this the only course that Ross went with this style of bunkering? Why, and what was his reasoning for it?

How much does this change the given understanding of the course with its ties to Dick Wilson and the current look of the course?

Here is a photo showing the hole in Ran's write-up in 2000, does anyone have anything more recent to add?

Tully

[Ryan Farrow]

This is a great find, I hope you have some more photos stashed away somewhere that you would like to share. We need a donate button for you Sean.



The bunkering kind of reminds me of this:

[David Harshbarger]

Sean,

That 1931 photo shows an intimidating hole, with the green island besieged by an angry sea of sand on all sides.  It is amazing how much motion and emotion is in that tableau.  All of that drama seems to have disappeared in the after photo.

Dave

[BCrosby]

Sean -

Wow. Great pic.   

Thanks for posting.

Bob

[Lester George]

This photo lends credit to Wilsons "restoration" of the course in the late 40's.  There are a few people who suggest he put in other than "Ross style" bunkers when he did the work.  Intertesting correlation to maintenace cost as well.  Good stuff!

Lester

[Joe Sponcia]

What a great picture! Thanks for sharing.  Always makes you wonder what is going on in the boardrooms of clubs?  If they had a Rembrandt hanging in the grill room (or is it grille now?), I wonder how often they would re-touch it?

[Neil_Crafter]

Great research Sean, as always, and thanks for sharing it with GCA.

[JC Jones]

This photo lends credit to Wilsons "restoration" of the course in the late 40's.  There are a few people who suggest he put in other than "Ross style" bunkers when he did the work.  Intertesting correlation to maintenace cost as well.  Good stuff!

Lester

I had a great conversation with von Hagge a couple years ago about Wilson's work at Seminole (he was Wilson's associate at the time).  Other than the 18th, he very much emphasized how little they did and that they were charged, only, with cleaning the place up after the neglect it had faced during the war.

[Ryan Farrow]

FYI:  The Donald's Greens Sketch:

[Lester George]

JC,

I am sure that is the case.  Von Hagge was and interesting dude, and very entertaining.  He once said, "Lester, you are a lucky man because you have a good-looking wife, like I do", which my wife overheard.  He was over 80 years old when he said it.  Fun.

I was criticized a few years ago for a write-up I did about Seminole in a golf publication for not "recognizing" that those (paraphrasing) "were not Ross bunkers at all, but the leftover Dick Wilson bunkers from 1947".  I had seen old areial photos confirming the multi-nosed bunkers like those in the picture and made my comments from there.  I am going to say it was the early 90's.  Anyway, thats when I starting compiling my information on Ross and the MANY different styles of bunkers he employed during his career.  It always makes me curious that many so-called Donald Ross "experts" ignore this fact and lean toward a very select few types when "restoring" Ross' work.

Lester 

[michael damico]

Anyway, thats when I starting compiling my information on Ross and the MANY different styles of bunkers he employed during his career.  It always makes me curious that many so-called Donald Ross "experts" ignore this fact and lean toward a very select few types when "restoring" Ross' work.

This is quite interesting because of the fact that Lester brings up: the quintessential "Ross bunker style" that has become so prevalent in 'restoration' work. Now, this may be the start for a new thread, but of all of the Golden Age designers, who had the greatest variety of bunker styling?

[Mark McKeever]

Very neat picture.  thanks for sharing!

Mark

[john_stiles]

Thanks for the photo.

An equally fine photo of the early bunkers at Seminole is found in Shackelford's 1999 book,  'The Golden Age of Golf Design'.   There is a ground level photo of the 5th hole of Seminole.  Most of his field notes/sketches for the other Seminole holes notes 'raised faces'  for the bunkers.

Shack's book also has photos of the flashed up bunkers at Pinehurst #2 ninth, and a good number at Oakland Hills, and of course the third at Wannamoisett.   The book has several photos of bunkers at other courses,  including those commonly referred to as Ross bunkers.

[Patrick Hodgdon]

Here's a more recent picture from January 2010:

[Neil_Crafter]

Patrick
Thanks for the photo from last year. As I understand it this is how the bunkers look after they were "restored" by Brian Silva if I recall correctly. Restored to what exactly I wonder?

[Bill_McBride]

Patrick
Thanks for the photo from last year. As I understand it this is how the bunkers look after they were "restored" by Brian Silva if I recall correctly. Restored to what exactly I wonder?

That to me is more of a Raynor look.  Brian Silva has done a lot of Raynor.

[JC Jones]

He's also done a lot of Ross but as Lester pointed out above, too many people think there is a "Ross" bunker out there. 

[Patrick_Mucci]

Sean,

Most of MacKenzie's work in America was 1929 or later, hence I don't believe that Ross copied his bunker design style in America.

Seminole was also one of Ross's later Florida courses.
It would be interesting to see the bunker styles on his earlier courses.

Seminole does occupy unusual topography for South Florida so perhaps the comparison should only be with Ross bunkers on earlier courses in South Florida.

As to the look of those bunkers, I'd posit that they're almost impossible to maintain.

South Florida and Seminole get tremendous rains, not including hurricanes and tropical storms.

Those upper bunker faces have to wash away when the heavy and torrential rains come in.

Therefore, maintaining them has to be both difficult and expensive.

And, I don't believe that there's much difference in their function in 1931 and today.

Balls at the perimeter of the greens roll down the edges into the bunkers toward their centers.
From the looks of those bunkers, the function would appear to be the same.

And, balls hitting into the high sand faces would likewise roll down to the centers, not unlike today when balls hitting the grass slopes do the same.

I think Mother Nature has conspired to deprive us of such neat looking bunkers, but, I can tell you, from too many experiences, that the bunkers function more than adequately in their present configurations.

[john_stiles]

Oakland Hills south was 1917.   Wannamoisett was 1914 or so.  Seminole was 1929-ish.

I agree with Tom Paul's mentor that large flashed up faces, in any area of frequent heavy rains like MI and FL, would have to be difficult to maintain due to washouts.

Ross did have a sketch of various bunker styles which you can see at Tufts Archives.  Would guess that any of his construction superintendents would then do these styles in as many forms as there were construction superintendents, not even considering field conditions or soil/sand materials.

[Mike_Young]

I am not a Ross expert, I have not slept with him or had relations where he took the time to tell me what he was doing with his various courses  ;DBUT I do think the bunker work at Seminole probably came about more because he was on sand and could design such bunkers much easier and more economically than if he were in a different soil.   

[JC Jones]

I read somewhere, perhaps Dobson's book, that the bunkers were meant to look like the waves of the ocean.

[Patrick_Mucci]

I read somewhere, perhaps Dobson's book, that the bunkers were meant to look like the waves of the ocean.

JC,

I had heard that about several courses, but, that would seem to be an exaggeration, since, when the waves look like that, it's not great weather for golf.

Mike, the former pro at National had a great saying.

"When the white caps are on the bay......... the pro don't play.

[Joshua Pettit]

Sean,

Most of MacKenzie's work in America was 1929 or later, hence I don't believe that Ross copied his bunker design style in America.

Patrick,

The majority of MacKenzie's work in North America was not done post 1928, it was actually a pretty even split.  This list is based on dates of construction.

PRE 1929:
MPCC Dunes, Pebble 8 & 13, Cypress, Meadow, Redlands, Melrose, California, Lake Merced, Valley, Pasatiempo

POST 1928:
Union League, Claremont, Ohio State Scarlet & Gray, Crystal Downs, Michigan, Sharp Park, Bayside, Augusta, Sacramento

There may be no evidence that Ross copied MacKenzie's bunker style, but surely he was aware of it, as well as some of the other prominent Architects that were working out West.  And he was certainly familiar with George Thomas' book.  Any honest architect of any specialty will attest that exposure to previously unfamiliar styles has an affect on you, either consciously or subconsciously.


Sean,

Great post!  I'd be very interested to hear from you and some of the other supers on the board about how their current labor breakdown compares with the numbers on the Golfdom cover -- perhaps a good discussion for a different thread.

[Sean_Tully]

Sean,

Most of MacKenzie's work in America was 1929 or later, hence I don't believe that Ross copied his bunker design style in America.
I would have to disagree to a point. More a difference in our point of view as biased by our given location. Most of AM's work was done in the East after 1929, and before 1929 most of his work was done in the West. 1929, is pretty close to a middle point for all of his work in North America. Ross came out West for work at the Broadmoor in Colorado(opened 1918) in and in 1922 at Beresford in California. It appears that Ross came back to California in either 1932 or '33, this has yet to be verified. So given what we know about Ross at this point, he did not see the bunker style in question in CA.

What other courses in the East were building bunkers like this in 1929? Can't say that I have seen any yet. This style of bunker started showing up in California in the mid1920's with Bell and MacKenzie leading the way. So, how does this style of bunker find its way to Florida? I do know that one person that keeps getting overlooked just happened to be in the area in 1927 and possibly 1928--Robert Hunter.  Hunter frequently made golf trips to Pinehurst and the Palm Beach area from as early as 1909. Interesting timing in that Cypress Point would have been under construction in that 1927-28 time frame. Even more interesting is that Hunter and Ross were rather close friends and could very well have gone over the Seminole course and talked shop together.
I will be perfectly clear--- this is purely speculation on my part using what I have been able to uncover through my research and that of others.

Seminole was also one of Ross's later Florida courses.
It would be interesting to see the bunker styles on his earlier courses.
Agreed

Seminole does occupy unusual topography for South Florida so perhaps the comparison should only be with Ross bunkers on earlier courses in South Florida.

As to the look of those bunkers, I'd posit that they're almost impossible to maintain.

South Florida and Seminole get tremendous rains, not including hurricanes and tropical storms.

Those upper bunker faces have to wash away when the heavy and torrential rains come in.

Therefore, maintaining them has to be both difficult and expensive.

In regards to the bunkers, I too agree that they would have required a lot of maintenance by todays standards to get them back into play. Just not so sure how concerned they would have been given our over the top maintenance standards for a hazard. At Meadow Club we average just over 50inches of rain over eight months of the year and we just had a winter of 70 inches, so I am very familiar with washouts. There is only so much work we can do besides cleaning up debris and working on bunkers.  It can take us little over a week to repair all of our bunkers(96) given a storm that drops anywhere from 5-10inches of rain. Not many golfers venture out during these periods and the ones that do understand that conditions are not the same.

I look at it as more of an issue of labor. Even with the depression and the financial threat it held over most businesses, there was always a labor force that could be depended upon. WWII took that labor force away and golf courses struggled with additional reductions in membership and revenue and the courses suffered.

And, I don't believe that there's much difference in their function in 1931 and today.

Balls at the perimeter of the greens roll down the edges into the bunkers toward their centers.
From the looks of those bunkers, the function would appear to be the same.

And, balls hitting into the high sand faces would likewise roll down to the centers, not unlike today when balls hitting the grass slopes do the same.

I think Mother Nature has conspired to deprive us of such neat looking bunkers, but, I can tell you, from too many experiences, that the bunkers function more than adequately in their present configurations.

I agree, to a point, having never played over the course I look at those original bunkers and they look far more imposing to me, the current ones not as much. After that, they are the same.

Tully

[JC Jones]

Sean,

Interesting stuff.

Tom Paul and I once had a long telephone conversation where we tried to brainstorm around the story that there was at least one if not two other prominent architects considered for the Seminole job besides Ross.  Given his work at Indian Creek, I had always assumed Flynn was one of them (though Tom and Wayne have no record of it and it doesn't appear in their tome).  Perhaps Robert Hunter was the other?