News:

Welcome to the Golf Club Atlas Discussion Group!

Each user is approved by the Golf Club Atlas editorial staff. For any new inquiries, please contact us.


Mark Saltzman

  • Karma: +0/-0
The Worst Hole on the Course
« on: October 19, 2011, 01:04:18 AM »
To what extent does the worst hole on the course impact a golf course's greatness?

Ben Jarvis

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Worst Hole on the Course
« Reply #1 on: October 19, 2011, 04:26:21 AM »
If it's a great golf course, then the worst hole should in fact be a good hole at least. A Doak 10 suggests "if you skipped even one hole, you would miss something worth seeing." That being the case, perhaps it has no influence on the golf course's greatness...certainly not negatively anyway?
Twitter: @BennyJarvis
Instagram: @bennyj08

David_Elvins

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Worst Hole on the Course
« Reply #2 on: October 19, 2011, 04:48:56 AM »
t depends alot on how it is the worst hole, IMO.

If it is the worst hole because it is bland and simple then it can be an effective part of the routing and not a real issue.

If it is the worst hole because it contains a major design flaw, or is completely out of character with the other 17 holes, then it detracts significantly from the golfing experience. 
Ask not what GolfClubAtlas can do for you; ask what you can do for GolfClubAtlas.

Ally Mcintosh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Worst Hole on the Course
« Reply #3 on: October 19, 2011, 07:00:47 AM »
t depends alot on how it is the worst hole, IMO.

If it is the worst hole because it is bland and simple then it can be an effective part of the routing and not a real issue.

If it is the worst hole because it contains a major design flaw, or is completely out of character with the other 17 holes, then it detracts significantly from the golfing experience. 

This is how I see it also...

Bill_McBride

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Worst Hole on the Course
« Reply #4 on: October 19, 2011, 07:38:28 AM »
The pond on 17 at Royal County Down seems to bother a lot of people.......

Adam Clayman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Worst Hole on the Course
« Reply #5 on: October 19, 2011, 09:00:00 AM »
Sleepy Hollow has what one person called 'a pity" when approaching only one of the holes. Yes, It's a Jones par 3 over water, complete with rock wall.

It has very little effect on the whole courses greatness.
"It's unbelievable how much you don't know about the game you've been playing your whole life." - Mickey Mantle

Mark Saltzman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Worst Hole on the Course
« Reply #6 on: October 19, 2011, 09:18:28 AM »
I ask this question because I have long thought that for a course to be considered great, you really have to take a look at the worst holes on the course.  After my round at Shinny I was asked by one of the guys I played with what made the course so great.  My first answer was a question back to him, "what was the worst hole on the course?"  He said, every hole was good. There wasn't a bad hole.  I told him that was a big part (at least in my opinion).

It is much easier to overcome a "bland or simple hole" (as David calls it) than a bad hole.

jeffwarne

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Worst Hole on the Course
« Reply #7 on: October 19, 2011, 09:33:11 AM »
Sleepy Hollow has what one person called 'a pity" when approaching only one of the holes. Yes, It's a Jones par 3 over water, complete with rock wall.

It has very little effect on the whole courses greatness.

I'm curious  why Sleepy's 10th hole is considered bad, but there's a  common view that "there are no bad holes at Shiinecock"

I'd argue 10 at Sleepy is an effective , natural appearing( occuring on the low point of the woodland property), and beautiful use of water(affecting both strategy,mindset and execution for all players)
It's not like water is an overused feature at Sleepy

 ......and that the water hazard at #6 Shinny is an unnatural, unattractive use of water that disproportionately affects the hole for poorer golfers while going virtually unnoticed by better players who hit a good drive.(who already have been alowed to take a much bolder line on their tee shots due to the awkward drive that is remarkably less challenging for a player of reasonable length.

Could it be that Flynn was involved at one and Jones was involved at another?
« Last Edit: October 19, 2011, 09:41:50 AM by jeffwarne »
"Let's slow the damned greens down a bit, not take the character out of them." Tom Doak
"Take their focus off the grass and put it squarely on interesting golf." Don Mahaffey

David Cronheim

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Worst Hole on the Course
« Reply #8 on: October 19, 2011, 09:37:16 AM »
Thought provoking topic. I think to some extent the worst hole on a course can negatively impact your assessment, but more often than not, it's forgotten by the golfing public. For example, I am not a fan of #2 on the lower at Baltusrol, but I do love the rest of the course, so it doesn't affect my overall assessment more than getting a bad score on 1/18th.

Where I think one hole can really negatively impact your assessment more than just that 5.5% is if one hole is truly out of character, looks squeezed in, appears to be an afterthought, or is markedly better than the rest of the course. I played the Meadows course at the Greenbrier a few weeks ago and its 12th and 13th holes were great. In fact, they were so much better than the rest of the course that it really ruined my perception of the course as a whole.

Perhaps I'd best sum it up by paraphrasing a line from Hogan who said that you'll know you're a good player when you only remember your bad shots. To some extent, many of us like to think we're good critiques of golf courses, so we remember the bad holes more than most. Most players remember that one "signature hole" even though many here really dislike that concept.

Take for example, Port Royal in Bermuda (host of the PGA Grand Slam of Golf yesterday and today). I don't think it's the equal of Mid Ocean because I remember the the first few holes which are pretty unremarkable. They don't have views of the ocean and are pretty flat and boring (in my opinion). The back nine however, is perhaps the most beautiful nine holes in golf. What do I remember? #16, not #2. I think most people are the same way.
Check out my golf law blog - Tee, Esq.

Mike Nuzzo

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Worst Hole on the Course
« Reply #9 on: October 19, 2011, 09:50:47 AM »
I don't remember the last time I saw a single bad hole on an otherwise good golf course.
It is rare to see a single terrible hole on a modern course - long cart path rides and earth work have helped that cause.
(I say rare because if there is one, there are usually more)
I did make a presentation to a club where I thought I could turn their worst holes into one of their best - there was extra width room - I thought that would make a big impact on the overall course.

If the other 17 holes were really good, I'd let the bad one slide some.
If they weren't the whole course gets a lot worse.
Thinking of Bob, Rihc, Bill, George, Neil, Dr. Childs, & Tiger.

michael damico

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Worst Hole on the Course
« Reply #10 on: October 19, 2011, 04:48:13 PM »
If it is the worst hole because it is bland and simple then it can be an effective part of the routing and not a real issue.

If it is the worst hole because it contains a major design flaw, or is completely out of character with the other 17 holes, then it detracts significantly from the golfing experience. 

I agree with this. As an employer, you are 'only as good as your weakest link'; as a golf course, it is only as good as it's weakest hole.
"without deviation from the norm, progress is not possible"
                                                                -fz

Ronald Montesano

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Worst Hole on the Course
« Reply #11 on: October 19, 2011, 04:52:01 PM »
Is The Law Firm posting on GCA now?
Coming in 2024
~Elmira Country Club
~Soaring Eagles
~Bonavista
~Indian Hills
~Maybe some more!!

David Cronheim

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Worst Hole on the Course
« Reply #12 on: October 19, 2011, 04:54:51 PM »
If it is the worst hole because it is bland and simple then it can be an effective part of the routing and not a real issue.

If it is the worst hole because it contains a major design flaw, or is completely out of character with the other 17 holes, then it detracts significantly from the golfing experience. 

I agree with this. As an employer, you are 'only as good as your weakest link'; as a golf course, it is only as good as it's weakest hole.

I think that's a bit cliche...I've played plenty of great courses with a stupid hole. It's still possible to be a great golf course with a bad hole. Can you be a notch about great, i.e. elite with a bad hole? Maybe, but less likely.
Check out my golf law blog - Tee, Esq.

Jed Rammell

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Worst Hole on the Course
« Reply #13 on: October 20, 2011, 11:25:06 AM »
Seems like the only hole people talk about at Bandon Trails is the 14th (for better or worse). 

Wade Whitehead

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Worst Hole on the Course
« Reply #14 on: October 20, 2011, 03:15:05 PM »
Every course has a worst hole.

I tend to evaluate courses by stretches of holes (not singular ones).  A bad stretch of three holes has far more impact than one lemon (or even three spread out).

If a course's worst hole is its eighteenth I think it has more of an impact on an overall evaluation of the place.  Royal New Kent comes to mind.

WW

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re: The Worst Hole on the Course
« Reply #15 on: October 20, 2011, 03:26:53 PM »
I love how people opine on stuff like this, without actually considering how it works in real life.

All you have to do is go to the lists:

1.  Pine Valley doesn't have a worst hole, that's a lot of people's rationale for rating it #1.

2.  Cypress Point's 18th is commonly thought of as a bad hole, though some will defend it wouldn't be so bad if it weren't the 18th.  Has it killed the reputation of Cypress Point?  Don't think so.

3.  The ninth hole on the Old Course at St. Andrews is about as bland a hole as you can find in the world, although by virtue of its blandness players put pressure on themselves to make birdie there, and it isn't always as easy as it looks.  And there are actually some people who don't think The Old Course is one of the great courses in the world, and will point to this hole as one reason why.  Those people are called "morons".

4.  Augusta National's worst hole is probably the 7th, especially after it was lengthened 60 yards ... it looks like a one-lane detour on a four-lane highway.  Must be why Augusta has fallen out of the top 50 ... oh, wait.

5.  Pebble Beach has a couple or three candidates for worst hole, and all of them are worse than the worst hole at Oakmont or Merion.  And yet, Pebble is rated above those.


As a designer, you work extra hard to try not to have a hole that's easily identified as the worst hole on the course.  In an ideal world, you wouldn't have one.  But in the real world, a great course is generally allowed one or two clunkers, and the only people who object to it are ivory-tower critics who have no influence in the golf world.

Adrian_Stiff

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Worst Hole on the Course
« Reply #16 on: October 20, 2011, 03:52:13 PM »
Every course has a worst hole.


WW
Wade by definition there must be a best hole on the course and there must be a worst hole, but it can only really be the best or worse in that persons opinion. Tom mentions 9 @TOC and he points to some positives, I actually think 9 is better than 10, so for me 10 is the weakest. Pebble has a number of weakies but those great holes really sway it and I suppose its just a matter of adding up all 18 holes and let your mind balance what you feel for the overall course.....I dont think 18 okay holes does it for anyone though.
A combination of whats good for golf and good for turf.
The Players Club, Cumberwell Park, The Kendleshire, Oake Manor, Dainton Park, Forest Hills, Erlestoke, St Cleres.
www.theplayersgolfclub.com

JLahrman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Worst Hole on the Course
« Reply #17 on: October 20, 2011, 03:58:53 PM »
So Tom, to answer the original question:

To what extent does the worst hole on the course impact a golf course's greatness?

You'd say that it doesn't, based on your examples?  Which might not be wrong.  Nobody is going to focus on Michael Jordan's stint with the Wizards when evaluating his career, unless they are really splitting hairs.

The worst hole on a course doesn't have to be a bad hole.  It might even be a good hole.  If pressed, most of us could probably determine our least-favorite hole on most any course we've played.  Sometimes there may be a common consensus about it.  Which still doesn't mean the hole is bad or a "clunker".  I've never played Cypress, but based on the general opinions about it on this site the 18th can't be taking away from the experience too much.

Terry Lavin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Worst Hole on the Course
« Reply #18 on: October 20, 2011, 04:00:31 PM »
Flossmoor CC, here in suburban Chicago, was recently the subject of a celebrated renovation by Ray Hearn.  The course was built in 1899 and it had fallen prey to all of the pitfalls of an older club: shrunken green pads, horizontal tree growth infringing on fairway lines and lines of flight, bunker loss and bunker alterations, etc.  But one of the primary reasons that the course really needed some renovation is that it had one hole that was a bit of a sore spot.  Some members ardently defended the hole, but others openly derided it.  Flossmoor began to be defined by the hole, since people who played it only occasionally usually remembered that hole primarily.

Here's the hole:  A 120 yard par-three from an elevated tee to a lower green fronted by a big bunker.  The line of flight to the hole was amazingly narrow, between a chute of 200 year-old oak trees.  The green was banked right to left at an angle of something like 8%.  It was a "lucky birdie", easy bogey hole if ever I saw one.  In many ways, it became the "signature" hole of the golf course to casual observers, which was most unfortunate, because the rest of the holes were quite good, and some were simply brilliant.

So that hole got eliminated and replaced by another short hole, about the same distance, in a bit of a meadow, which was created by the felling of at least 100 old oaks.  It's sort of underwhelming, in many respects, and it is still arguably the "worst" or the most controversial or perhaps the most boring hole on the course.
Nobody ever went broke underestimating the intelligence of the American people.  H.L. Mencken

Peter Pallotta

Re: The Worst Hole on the Course
« Reply #19 on: October 20, 2011, 04:59:51 PM »
Mark: I think we - everyone - sees more than he/she realizes, understands more that he/she can articulate, and feels more than he/she knows. At the end of a round, I can't even imagine all the subtle 'calculations' and half-processed 'judgements' that go on - the relative weighing of a range of factors/experience that add up to someone saying "Wow, that's a great golf course!".  Only later do the 'specifics' emerge, and the critic's mind, singling out this or that hole as the worst. Indeed, I think a forum just like this one actually engenders/creates more such 'critical' thoughts than anywhere else, in that it is a forum through which the 'unconscious/ethereal' is processed into 'facts/rankings".  Nothing wrong with that I suppose, but only one way of many to experience gca.

Peter    

Kyle Harris

Re: The Worst Hole on the Course
« Reply #20 on: October 20, 2011, 05:10:13 PM »
If it is the worst hole because it contains a major design flaw, or is completely out of character with the other 17 holes, then it detracts significantly from the golfing experience. 

Does this mean a routing should:

Completely avoid an area of the property that features a unique, out-of-character area?

If not, should the architect completely eliminate all those aspects in order to meet their view of the character of the property?

Perhaps it is the ability of the architect to sell the concept that is out-of-character that is truly being critiqued, and not the character of the hole itself.

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Worst Hole on the Course
« Reply #21 on: October 20, 2011, 07:30:52 PM »
I tend to think a serious detriment to the rep of an otherwise great course is a combo of issues over a handful of holes rather than one hole.  I would be interested to see a list of courses that would be great if one clunker was fixed.  To pick one example of a well loved course that I believe falls short of greatness - Machrihanish.  The opening 10 holes are one of the great sets of holes in golf, but the finishing holes are miles behind in quality.  Not really bad holes and indeed, a few are very good, but they are woefully lacking as a whole compared to the opening holes.  While many may love the course, I can't see how anyone could call it great. 

Ton D - how the hell can you throw up TOC?  There is so much wrong with that course on which it gets a pass that it is totally a unique case.  Thats why there is only one TOC and why nobody has tried to recreate it. 

Ciao
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Kalen Braley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Worst Hole on the Course
« Reply #22 on: October 20, 2011, 07:55:47 PM »

Ton D - how the hell can you throw up TOC?  There is so much wrong with that course on which it gets a pass that it is totally a unique case.  Thats why there is only one TOC and why nobody has tried to recreate it. 

Ciao

Sean,

I would have to agree here 100%.   

Shots over buildings
Criss-Crossing fairways/holes
OB on the right side the entire way
People intentionally playing to someone else's fairway creating safety hazards.
Asphalt roads in play

Andy Troeger

Re: The Worst Hole on the Course
« Reply #23 on: October 20, 2011, 08:13:32 PM »
We're not going to find a pattern with "worst holes." It depends on how bad the hole is, why its bad, where its located in the round, and whether the quality of the other 17 holes makes that specific hole stick out or fade away by the time the round is over.

How many people really go to Pebble and walk away talking about #12 or #15? (even out of this group).


Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re: The Worst Hole on the Course
« Reply #24 on: October 20, 2011, 08:32:50 PM »

Ton D - how the hell can you throw up TOC?  There is so much wrong with that course on which it gets a pass that it is totally a unique case.  Thats why there is only one TOC and why nobody has tried to recreate it. 

Ciao

Sean,

I would have to agree here 100%.   

Shots over buildings
Criss-Crossing fairways/holes
OB on the right side the entire way
People intentionally playing to someone else's fairway creating safety hazards.
Asphalt roads in play


There is absolutely nothing wrong with The Old Course at St. Andrews.  There is only something wrong with people who think there's something wrong with it.

Tags:
Tags:

An Error Has Occurred!

Call to undefined function theme_linktree()
Back