Geoff:
I meant no disrespect to Fenway -- I love the course and believe it's likely the most underrated gem in the metro area --it's clearly in the "middleweight" division of golf courses and I truly believe it's beyond the likes of Somerset Hills, Maidstone and others of this ilk. Unfortunately, the nature of "approval" takes a bit longer to get and far too long for others that have basked in the limelight to relinguish. Far too often
I've often said that the "fun" meter is used as it applies to individual golfers. Many times people need to step outside their own shoes and see the merits / lack thereof of any course. Winged Foot / West gets quick nod of approval from serious golfers but they hate like the dickens to play it. Yes, it is intense but I've said this before -- there are few, if any, golf courses that are it's equal to the demands by on the second shot to par-4's. However, no one says one has to play the West from the tips to get the full impression the layout creates.
Geoff -- you make a very true point -- the style and nature of Tillie courses does vary a good bit more than what many people often realize.
Tom MacWood:
Baltusrol Lower is not on great land by any means but the routing by Tillinghast is done quite well, however, I would dare say a clear notch below WF / West and BB. Take for example the wonderful 3rd hole -- the hole sets up a for a draw off the tee and the positioning of shots -- at the tee and on the approach -- have to be well executed -- the lengthening of the hole by Rees Jones has only served to enhance the merits of what Tillinghast originally created.
I also mentioned the superb uphill 5th -- a great green site on a mid-length par-4 and the crown fairway at the 6th -- wow!. Again, most people make spot observations of the Lower and simply pronounce it is nothing more than a long and boring layout. Far from it indeed. What amazes me is how quick people lionize Oak Hill / East (GD has it in the top ten in the USA --
) but it's filled with trees and has been grossly changed from what Ross did to what the Fazio tandem concocted.
Let me also mention that the greens on the Lower are subtle in the manner by which they test players -- similar to what you see at BB. You don't get the huge sweeping putts one sees at Oakmont or Oakland Hills / South but they do require a keen eye -- seeing Isao Aoki in the '80 Open was indeed quite special because I have rarely seen any player putt so superbly over the 72 hole event.
Again, I have to reemphasize that Somerset Hills is a fine course and clearly has a number of holes that are vintage Tillie. But, to be quite clear -- the 17th and 18th are a major league letdown given the nature / variety of holes that have preceded it.
Slapper:
We disagree buddy!
Montclair (#2 & #4) are beyond what Somerset Hills offers. Would you like to stack up the par-3's, par-4's and par-5's against one another or the overall routing or the finishing holes at each?
Pat is quite correct about a few of the greens being changed but Montclair's nines have the benefit of a Ross / Banks contribution. Do you remember the superb bowl shaped green on the 1st on #4. How about the fantastic downhill par-4 at the 2nd? The redan like 3rd?
On the Ross nine you have the combo of the first three holes -- what grand stuff indeed! The ending is also solid and the closing hole rarely ever suffers fools.
Ditto Hollywood and Forsgate / Banks. The issue with the courses I have just mentioned is the lack of notice many of them generate. In my mind the collective four par-3's at Forsgate are no less in quality than what you find at PV and Plainfield -- that sounds rather strong but I believe it. The Eden 3rd is among my personal top four par-3's in NJ -- the reverse redan 7th is well done -- the short par-3 12th with the horseshoe-shaped green is also first rate and the biaritz 17th is no picnic either.
redanman:
You say it's a no-brainer but few people ever really
A-D-M-I-T IT!
Rating is not about how a course applies to your game but the total merits period. Sometimes you have to have a little imagination and visualize how a particular hole will play for other types of players -- this works both ways. I know you do this but do all people. I doubt it.
Your last question -- WF / West is the "super size" version of Fenway -- I don't see any real similarity in the nature of the holes from the Lower to the WF / West. The bunkering style seems to be a bit different in my eyes and without question the nature of the putting greens and the manner by which you have the classic pear-shaped greens with bunkers pushed very tight to the surface is far different than the open style greens you see at the Lower.
Scott:
I've played SFGC and it is a gem of a Tillie layout but I would still take Winged Foot / West and BB ahead of it IMHO.
bkatona:
I don't know if you have seen / played Ridgewood since they took down a few trees. I do agree that prior to this effort the course had become a bowling alley and too many trees had robbed the course of various playing angles that Tillie has originally envisioned. I also believe more trees can still come down without jeopardizing the nature of the layout.
Personally, I view the East & West at Ridgewood among Jersey's top ten. If more is done in the future regarding trees then I believe the standing of the club will only be enhanced.
Lastly, this notion that SH is #3 in NJ will be bandied back and forth but I'll say this again -- NJ has a number of superb layouts that get far too little attention and are IMHO worthy of even more attention and standing with the finest layouts in the state.