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Scott_Burroughs

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Tillie Defends himself -MGA Amateur
« Reply #25 on: August 04, 2003, 10:47:49 AM »
Bill,

I'm not so sure about the lack of response to the Tillie thread you posted earlier.  I think it had at least partly to do with the few people who have played all of the courses you listed (all of which are private).  Half of the people who posted in that thread hadn't even played them all.  For the MGA-area guys, several probably haven't played SFGC.

I certainly couldn't post as I've only played one of the one's you listed.  I've played another one of Tillie's biggies, but it wasn't listed, despite being very famous (now).

GeoffreyC

Re:Tillie Defends himself -MGA Amateur
« Reply #26 on: August 04, 2003, 11:49:54 AM »
Bill- not really

WFW greens are pushed up with the bunkers flush against them.  The property (topography) and how the fairways flowed into the greens at Baltusrol Lower looks to my eye more like Quaker Ridge.

However, Tillinghast perhaps more then any other architect had the ability to defy a specific style and look. Five Farms hardly looked like any Tillinghast I had seen before (NAF agrees with this). SFGC, Rockaway Hunt, Newport etc. all have a unique style. This is part of the greatness of Tillinghast IMHO!
« Last Edit: August 04, 2003, 11:53:36 AM by Geoffrey Childs »

Matt_Ward

Re:Tillie Defends himself -MGA Amateur
« Reply #27 on: August 04, 2003, 12:42:13 PM »
Geoff:

I meant no disrespect to Fenway -- I love the course and believe it's likely the most underrated gem in the metro area --it's clearly in the "middleweight" division of golf courses and I truly believe it's beyond the likes of Somerset Hills, Maidstone and others of this ilk. Unfortunately, the nature of "approval" takes a bit longer to get and far too long for others that have basked in the limelight to relinguish. Far too often

I've often said that the "fun" meter is used as it applies to individual golfers. Many times people need to step outside their own shoes and see the merits / lack thereof of any course. Winged Foot / West gets quick nod of approval from serious golfers but they hate like the dickens to play it. Yes, it is intense but I've said this before -- there are few, if any, golf courses that are it's equal to the demands by on the second shot to par-4's. However, no one says one has to play the West from the tips to get the full impression the layout creates.

Geoff -- you make a very true point -- the style and nature of Tillie courses does vary a good bit more than what many people often realize.

Tom MacWood:

Baltusrol Lower is not on great land by any means but the routing by Tillinghast is done quite well, however, I would dare say a clear notch below WF / West and BB. Take for example the wonderful 3rd hole -- the hole sets up a for a draw off the tee and the positioning of shots -- at the tee and on the approach -- have to be well executed -- the lengthening of the hole by Rees Jones has only served to enhance the merits of what Tillinghast originally created.

I also mentioned the superb uphill 5th -- a great green site on a mid-length par-4 and the crown fairway at the 6th -- wow!. Again, most people make spot observations of the Lower and simply pronounce it is nothing more than a long and boring layout. Far from it indeed. What amazes me is how quick people lionize Oak Hill / East (GD has it in the top ten in the USA -- ???) but it's filled with trees and has been grossly changed from what Ross did to what the Fazio tandem concocted.

Let me also mention that the greens on the Lower are subtle in the manner by which they test players -- similar to what you see at BB. You don't get the huge sweeping putts one sees at Oakmont or Oakland Hills / South but they do require a keen eye -- seeing Isao Aoki in the '80 Open was indeed quite special because I have rarely seen any player putt so superbly over the 72 hole event.  

Again, I have to reemphasize that Somerset Hills is a fine course and clearly has a number of holes that are vintage Tillie. But, to be quite clear -- the 17th and 18th are a major league letdown given the nature / variety of holes that have preceded it.

Slapper:

We disagree buddy!

Montclair (#2 & #4) are beyond what Somerset Hills offers. Would you like to stack up the par-3's, par-4's and par-5's against one another or the overall routing or the finishing holes at each?

Pat is quite correct about a few of the greens being changed but Montclair's nines have the benefit of a Ross / Banks contribution. Do you remember the superb bowl shaped green on the 1st on #4. How about the fantastic downhill par-4 at the 2nd? The redan like 3rd?

On the Ross nine you have the combo of the first three holes -- what grand stuff indeed! The ending is also solid and the closing hole rarely ever suffers fools.

Ditto Hollywood and Forsgate / Banks. The issue with the courses I have just mentioned is the lack of notice many of them generate. In my mind the collective four par-3's at Forsgate are no less in quality than what you find at PV and Plainfield -- that sounds rather strong but I believe it. The Eden 3rd is among my personal top four par-3's in NJ -- the reverse redan 7th is well done -- the short par-3 12th with the horseshoe-shaped green is also first rate and the biaritz 17th is no picnic either.

redanman:

You say it's a no-brainer but few people ever really
A-D-M-I-T IT!

Rating is not about how a course applies to your game but the total merits period. Sometimes you have to have a little imagination and visualize how a particular hole will play for other types of players -- this works both ways. I know you do this but do all people. I doubt it.

Your last question -- WF / West is the "super size" version of Fenway -- I don't see any real similarity in the nature of the holes from the Lower to the WF / West. The bunkering style seems to be a bit different in my eyes and without question the nature of the putting greens and the manner by which you have the classic pear-shaped greens with bunkers pushed very tight to the surface is far different than the open style greens you see at the Lower.

Scott:

I've played SFGC and it is a gem of a Tillie layout but I would still take Winged Foot / West and BB ahead of it IMHO.

bkatona:

I don't know if you have seen / played Ridgewood since they took down a few trees. I do agree that prior to this effort the course had become a bowling alley and too many trees had robbed the course of various playing angles that Tillie has originally envisioned. I also believe more trees can still come down without jeopardizing the nature of the layout.

Personally, I view the East & West at Ridgewood among Jersey's top ten. If more is done in the future regarding trees then I believe the standing of the club will only be enhanced.

Lastly, this notion that SH is #3 in NJ will be bandied back and forth but I'll say this again -- NJ has a number of superb layouts that get far too little attention and are IMHO worthy of even more attention and standing with the finest layouts in the state.

George Pazin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Tillie Defends himself -MGA Amateur
« Reply #28 on: August 04, 2003, 02:08:56 PM »
I agree with Tom Doak that the 4th is a tad overrated but it's still a fine hole.

Not to sidetrack the thread, but could one of you guys who's played Baltusrol Lower explain what sets this hole apart from the myriad of par 3s over water? From TV & photos (yikes, don't bite my head off, this is why I'm asking) it doesn't appear nearly as special as most hole rankings would imply.

Also, how does it compare with the original, pre RTJ modification?
Big drivers and hot balls are the product of golf course design that rewards the hit one far then hit one high strategy.  Shinny showed everyone how to take care of this whole technology dilemma. - Pat Brockwell, 6/24/04

Matt_Ward

Re:Tillie Defends himself -MGA Amateur
« Reply #29 on: August 04, 2003, 03:12:33 PM »
George --

I can't speak to the original -- maybe one of the old timers can chime in with that info -- but the existing hole, as per the work of RTJ, is still very good.

The hole presents a number of options -- the hole can be played at it's full length -- roughly 200 yards -- or a shorter tee can be used with the pin placed extremely close to the fronting water hazard. In the '80 Open I believe, if memory serves, the front tee location was used for two rounds and Tom Watson even aced the hole from that position.

George, there's no doubt that the idea of water guarding the front of a par-3 has been countless times (it'e like the proverbial car chase scene in any cop film) but the one at the Lower does work well.

Keep in mind the rear left pin placement is very demanding -- and often used in the final rounds of Opens -- even though the H20 has less of a role to play. If you should go long then the bunkers behind the green become an obstacle and the putting surface does slope away from you in that direction.

There's also no doubt that the story of RTJ acing the hole has added to the lore of the hole. It doesn't hurt that the hole is also close to the clubhouse and you can see the players playing from the terrace.

The 4th is a good hole and it helps that there is flexibility when it is prepared for events. I just believe NJ has a number of exceptional par-3's that are just a tad better than the one you find at the Lower.

Scott_Burroughs

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Tillie Defends himself -MGA Amateur
« Reply #30 on: August 04, 2003, 03:42:31 PM »
A couple of things surprised me on the 4th at BL.  One, the green has much more undulation (big tier) than can be seen on TV, and two, the disappointment for me was the difference between the back and next up tees.  The back tees is around 200 as Matt said and is a tough hole, even at today's 5-6 iron length for the pros.  But the next tee is way up from the tips.  I think they had them up farther than normal my round there, but it was at 140 yards, a wedge in the summer for me.  I certainly never dreamed of hitting a pitching wedge into that hole, known for many years as ~190 yard hole.  I think there should be at least a ~175-180 tee for the next-to-back tees.

Part of the problem is that the course is 7300+ from the tips and then only ~6600 from the next tees, a large difference.  A ~6800-6900 yard range would have been nice.

George Pazin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Tillie Defends himself -MGA Amateur
« Reply #31 on: August 04, 2003, 03:46:58 PM »
Thanks, Matt.

BTW, good news - more common ground -

Quote
sorry I don't sip Merlot but prefer a cold brew

 :)
Big drivers and hot balls are the product of golf course design that rewards the hit one far then hit one high strategy.  Shinny showed everyone how to take care of this whole technology dilemma. - Pat Brockwell, 6/24/04

Matt_Ward

Re:Tillie Defends himself -MGA Amateur
« Reply #32 on: August 04, 2003, 03:53:11 PM »
George --

My college roomate was from Mon-city -- lived just off the river. In fact -- went to high school with Joe Montana there.

Had my share of Iron City ...

Patrick_Mucci

Re:Tillie Defends himself -MGA Amateur
« Reply #33 on: August 04, 2003, 06:54:03 PM »
George Pazin,

The beauty of the hole is in the shape and contours of the green.

Starting from the right side, the green is a narrow finger with fronting water and rough and bunkers behind it.

As you move to the center of the green it begins to expand in size while at the same time a second putting surface emerges in the form of an elevated rear tier which is circular in nature.
The left side of the green provides a small target with water fronting and bunkers behind.  The green sits in a form of amphitheatre.  It's not a punchbowl green, but similiar at the perimeter.

This green configuration provides wonderful variation for hole locations.

For example, the narrow finger on the right is perfect for shots from the 140-150 tees, as is the far left hole location.
Hole locations on the upper tier are good for the far tier.
Hole locations on the strip fronted by the pond and backed by the upper tier are also challenging.

I would say that the green is very large, left to right, with good depth in the middle.

I'm not a fan of the fronting wall that has been redone a number of times, but, it's a good par three, with outstanding flexibility offered by diverse tee and hole locations, and the combinations thereof.

I don't think it's overrated, and I don't think it's underrated.

If someone could provide an aerial, you'd get a better feel for the hole and the strategic variety it offers.
« Last Edit: August 04, 2003, 07:29:43 PM by Patrick_Mucci »

Matt_Ward

Re:Tillie Defends himself -MGA Amateur
« Reply #34 on: August 04, 2003, 07:36:37 PM »
FYI:

I believe the distance from the "up" tees on the 4th during the '80 Open had the hole at about 165-170 yards.