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TJSturges

Why does Bill Diddel get no respect?
« on: January 02, 2002, 10:26:12 AM »
Bill Diddel (1884-1985) was one of Indiana's most prolific golf course architects.  (How many on this site know who this man was?)  He designed over 75 courses during his 50 plus year career.  He did some very solid work in Indiana, and also built courses in Arkansas, Florida, Illinois, Kansas, Kentucky, Michigan, Ohio and others.

I have been amazed however at how little respect his courses seem to get.  I have been a member at two of his courses (Rolling Hills Country Club and Evansville Country Club) and both courses have been "modernized/redesigned" in the past 20 years.  Of the courses he has built in the Indianapolis area: Highland, Hillcrest, Meridian Hills and now Woodland have all had major facelifts (indeed, Pete Dye is in the process of doing a major overhaul on Woodland in Carmel).  Those of you out there who are familiar with this man's work will know that he did some great stuff.  Why then does everyone feel the need to bulldoze over his work?  Why does his work get so little respect?

TS
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Willie_Dow

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Why does Bill Diddel get no respect?
« Reply #1 on: January 02, 2002, 11:21:09 AM »
TS

'Wonder what courses BD did are still in tact?
I'm heading south next week, and I want to see Melbourne CC.  I'll report back.
I like what I've read by Pete Dye concerning his work on BD's course.

Willie
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Chris_Clouser

Re: Why does Bill Diddel get no respect?
« Reply #2 on: January 02, 2002, 11:27:14 AM »
I posted something like this a few weeks ago and got no response, so I am curious as well.  I find it curious that Pete Dye would do that to a course that Diddel designed.  Considering Diddel got him started in the business.  Heck, Crenshaw turned down the Woodland job out of respect for the work that Diddel had done at the course.  Probably other reasons involved in that decision.

Maybe Diddel doesn't get mentioned here because he designed in an era where most people feel nothing really relevant design-wise was ever produced.  I am currently trying to do some research into his life, just to find out more about the guy and some of the courses he worked on.



« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

David Wigler

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Why does Bill Diddel get no respect?
« Reply #3 on: January 02, 2002, 11:40:14 AM »
TJ,

You mention that he did some work in Michigan.  Do you know which courses he did?  I will admit I am totally unfamiliar with his work.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
And I took full blame then, and retain such now.  My utter ignorance in not trumpeting a course I have never seen remains inexcusable.
Tom Huckaby 2/24/04

Willie_Dow

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Re: Why does Bill Diddel get no respect?
« Reply #4 on: January 02, 2002, 01:03:43 PM »
Chris

The reference I made concerning Pete Dye came from his book "Bury me in a pot bunker".  Unfortunately, the book is in Florida, and I'm in PA right now, so I can't reference the comment concerning Bill Diddle, but it was very respectful.

David

According to Cornish/Whidden: Diddle designed Echo Lake CC (1927), Forest Lake CC (1926), Hidden Valley C (1957), Lake St. Clair CC (1929), Shanty Creek GC (Deskin Cse - 1968)
What a great span of years!

Willie
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Willie_Dow

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Why does Bill Diddel get no respect?
« Reply #5 on: January 02, 2002, 01:19:37 PM »
I also note that Woodland CC, Carmel was revised by Gary Kern, according to Cornish/Whidden.  Kern also worked closely with Diddle, but didn't work for him as a golf designer.
Maybe this had an influence on Pete Dye's willingness to take on Woodland seeing he was part of that team as well.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

RJ_Daley

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Re: Why does Bill Diddel get no respect?
« Reply #6 on: January 02, 2002, 01:23:29 PM »
One of my golf companions travels to Dayton a few times a year and plays a Diddel course called Walnut Grove there.  He claims it has the feel of Langford's Lawsonia.  There is a course near my home attributed to Diddel that was probably an original Bendelow first laid out in 1906, and remodelled in 1956, by Diddel.  It was first called Lakeside, now called Branch River.  It received some acclaim as a top 200 golf digest course years ago.  I have not played it, but it appears to have a few interesting features, although vastly over planted with messy species of trees in the last 40 years.  It is nothing in the league with Langford in my estimation.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
No actual golf rounds were ruined or delayed, nor golf rules broken, in the taking of any photographs that may be displayed by the above forum user.

David Wigler

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Re: Why does Bill Diddel get no respect?
« Reply #7 on: January 02, 2002, 01:43:32 PM »
TJ,

I can now comment on why he may get no respect with regards to his work in Michigan.  Forest Lake is an interesting course.  I think a compelling argument could be made that it has the best greens in Michigan (Even better than Oakland Hills).  That written, the routing is mediocre to poor and the fit of approach to green is bad.  Furthermore, the course starts out with several outright goofy holes wrapped around a poorly placed driving range, houses, and wetlands.  If this course was built in the 80's, you could blame the poor site plan, routing, and fit on environmental regulations and housing requirements but since most the houses are forty or more years newer than the course and environmental regs were not issues in the 1920's, the architect has to take the blame.

As for Shanty Creek and Hidden Valley, these are very mediocre resort courses.  Probably no more than a 3 or a very generous 4 on the Doak scale.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
And I took full blame then, and retain such now.  My utter ignorance in not trumpeting a course I have never seen remains inexcusable.
Tom Huckaby 2/24/04

Tom MacWood (Guest)

Re: Why does Bill Diddel get no respect?
« Reply #8 on: January 02, 2002, 04:44:24 PM »
I have been very impressed with both Diddell designs I have played, Sharon Woods and Kenwood - which hosted a PGA. One of the reasons the guy is under appreciated is probably because he never recieved any super high profile projects -- mostly lower profile country clubs and some very strong public courses. It seems like an architect needs at least one or two well known designs to get recognition, and that recognition normally sparks others to study and seek out his lesser known work. I have never gotten the impression he had a huge ego or wanted to make a big name for himself, he seemed to prefer working in around his native Indiana. He also worked in very difficult era following the Depression and the war. I would defintiely go out of my way to play his work.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Ward P

Re: Why does Bill Diddel get no respect?
« Reply #9 on: January 02, 2002, 07:01:50 PM »
He was also a founding member of the asgca along with some very well regarded designers and president twice.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Tim Jackson

Re: Why does Bill Diddel get no respect?
« Reply #10 on: January 03, 2002, 09:04:58 AM »
Mr. Sturges

I grew up playing a Bill Diddel design (Beechwood G.C.) nearly every day during the season.  It was a WPA project built in the early 1930's in LaPorte, Indiana.  It is still there today and is a 'classic' parksland layout.  I have gone on to play many courses in the top 100 and still feel Beechwood is in my top 15.  I get back once a year and never miss the opportunity to play.  I actually think it was the 5th ranked public track in Indiana in 1990.  It may have fallen with new openings, but it is a solid golf course.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Ken_Cotner

Re: Why does Bill Diddel get no respect?
« Reply #11 on: January 03, 2002, 09:23:39 AM »
There was a thread a couple months ago (maybe more) in which Ron Kern provided some pretty thorough comments on Mr. Diddel and Woodland.  There is a huge retail development currently under construction on what was a large corner of the course.  I believe the gist of the decision was that the club got an financial offer they wouldn't refuse, and decided to sell and rebuild using some additional land.

Ron (Gary's son?) is very familiar with Mr. Diddel and is very complimentary of him and his work.  Maybe Ron is checking in here still?

Cheers,
Ken, who enjoyed many pleasant morning runs with his dog on the Woodland course.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

cardyin

Re: Why does Bill Diddel get no respect?
« Reply #12 on: January 03, 2002, 09:54:53 AM »
I have researched the life of Bill Diddel rather extensively and have written about him before on this website.
I would suspect the reason Diddel (not Diddle) has not received more acclaim is that he generally worked with modest budgets with little earth-moving capability and was, therefore, a strictrly lay-of-the-land golf architect. That also is a reason Pete Dye and others are devoting so much of their time to fingerpainting over some of Diddel's work.  At Speedway (now Brickyard Crossing), Diddel designed the original course in 1929 with 9 holes inside the Speedway track. He re-designed it in the mid-1960s, with all the holes on an 82-acre rectangular tract outside the tract.  In the early 1990's, Dye and Jason McCoy (his project manager, now head of Greg Norman's design team) rebuilt the course (with 4 holes inside the race track), and the last I heard the price tag was between 6 and 8 million dollars.
When Diddel got some decent land with which to work   (much of Indiana's available land is pretty flat), the results have been excellent.  I would think anyone who wants to sample Diddel at his best should try to arrange to play Meridian Hills C.C. in Indianapolis.  Diddel favored north-south courses because one didn't have to be concerned with the sun and the prevailing wind in Indiana is west to east, and Meridian Hills followed that pattern.  The greens, however, in my opinion are the best he designed, and one sees some Donald Ross(who designed Broadmoor about ten minutes away during the 1920s when Diddel was doing some of his best work) in the design.
Diddel also was a great golfer.  Born in 1884, he won 5 Indiana state amateur titles in the first 12 years of its existence (1900-1912) and in 1950, at the age of 66, he qualified for match play at Highland C.C., which he constructed in 1920 to the routing plan of Willie Park, Jr., with 76-74-150 before losing in the third round.  At age 82,he shot a 69 at Pinehurst No. 2 in competition, believed to be the most strokes below one's age ever.  
I played several rounds with Diddel, and there were no gimmes. Wherever the ball lay near the hole, you (and Bill) had to place it a full putter length away from its resting place.
He scored better than his age more than 2,000 times and then quit counting.
Diddel's best courses were designed in the 1920's.  When the depression hit in 1930's, he was able to build courses in smaller communities in Indiana as WPA projects and, thus, keep busy.  Among those courses is Beechwood in LaPorte, already mentioned on this thread.   Therefore, one frequently can wander into small Indiana cities and towns and find there courses of superior quality with sophisticated greens complexes.  However, he still was designing courses well into his 80s.
Most of Indiana's subsequent golf architects learned from Diddel, including Gary Kern (whose remains active along with his son, Ron); PeteDye, who studied Diddel's work;Lee Schmidt, a native of Valparaiso, Ind., who worked with Diddel at Woodland as a youth, and who also worked with Dye and now is busy filling the west with courses, often with co-designer Brian Curley.
Diddel died in 1985 at the age of 101.  He remains Indiana's most prolific designer and enduring golf icon.  We were extremely fortunate to have had him for all that time.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

BCrosby

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Why does Bill Diddel get no respect?
« Reply #13 on: January 03, 2002, 11:44:16 AM »
Tim -

I played in a number of high school golf matches at what I remember as LaPorte Country Club, a nice parkland layout.  Is that the same course as Beechwood?   If not, do you know who did it?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Tim Jackson

Re: Why does Bill Diddel get no respect?
« Reply #14 on: January 03, 2002, 12:50:29 PM »
Mr. Crosby

If I remember correctly LaPorte CC is not Beechwood.  LPCC was constructed in 1904 by someone lost to knowledge as far as I know.  LPCC became the Elks Club at some point in time and continues on today as Beacon Hills GC.  Interestingly they are close to building the second nine at Beacon Hills.  It may open in 2004 - 100 years after the first nine.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Tim Jackson

Re: Why does Bill Diddel get no respect?
« Reply #15 on: January 03, 2002, 12:54:24 PM »
Mr. Crosby

If I remember correctly LaPorte CC is not Beechwood.  LPCC was constructed in 1904 by someone lost to knowledge as far as I know.  LPCC became the Elks Club at some point in time and continues on today as Beacon Hills GC.  Interestingly they are close to building the second nine at Beacon Hills.  It may open in 2004 - 100 years after the first nine.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Tommy_Naccarato

Re: Why does Bill Diddel get no respect?
« Reply #16 on: January 03, 2002, 02:07:34 PM »
This post is a great point.

It should also read, "Why does H. Chandler Egan get no respect either?"
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Jeff Mingay

Re: Why does Bill Diddel get no respect?
« Reply #17 on: January 03, 2002, 02:51:50 PM »
And Vernon Macan too, Tommy  ;D

Like Diddel and Egan, Macan's work was regional in scope. That's why these guys, despite their talents, are talked about less than Ross, MacKenzie, Tillinghast, et.al.

« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

TJSturges

Re: Why does Bill Diddel get no respect?
« Reply #18 on: January 05, 2002, 01:36:54 PM »
Guys,

Thanks for all your comments.  However, I still think my question is unanswered.

To Ken Cotner:  I am familiar with the Kerns and I have sat on Green Committees at 2 clubs where the Kern firm wrote master plans to "modernize" Mr. Diddel's work.  In my opinion, neither course is as good today as they were when Mr. Diddel was finished.  If you visit the Kern website, they pay lip service to the old masters and speak respectfully of Mr. Diddel.  But they have spent a significant amount of their careers redoing Mr. Diddel's work.  Am I the only one that sees this inconsistancy?

To Cardyin:  You made a comment that Pete Dye has done some "fingerpainting" over some of Diddel's work.  Have you seen the work done at the Brickyard and the current work at Woodland?  I wouldn't call it fingerpainting.  Massive earthmoving and complete rerouting of holes would fall into the category of major surgery in my book.  I'm not saying everything done has been bad, but it in no way resembles the original work done by Mr. Diddel.  Also, to point someone toward Meridian Hills as an example of Mr. Diddel's work would be misleading.  Tom Fazio has put in lots of mounds and even two "beach bunkers" (on the 18th hole) that would never have been built by Mr. Diddel.  Meridian Hills would not qualify as a sample of Mr. Diddel's work in it's current state.

My question is still, why no respect for Mr. Diddel?  Clubs go out of their way to do "respectful restorations" of a Ross course, but architects like Mr. Fazio and the Kerns want to "improve" Mr. Diddel's work.  I just think this man did some very good work, and wonder why he continues to get no respect.

TS
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

ed_getka

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Re: Why does Bill Diddel get no respect?
« Reply #19 on: January 05, 2002, 04:40:35 PM »
Wow! I continue to be amazed by the depth and breadth of architectural knowledge by the people who frequent this website. Thanks for the education re: Bill Diddel's work and playing career.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
"Perimeter-weighted fairways", The best euphemism for containment mounding I've ever heard.

JakaB

Re: Why does Bill Diddel get no respect?
« Reply #20 on: January 05, 2002, 09:11:51 PM »
Ted,

What is your opinion of the rework of Evansville C.C. by Ron Kern?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Evan Fleisher

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Re: Why does Bill Diddel get no respect?
« Reply #21 on: January 06, 2002, 09:45:37 AM »
My only personal experience with Mr. Diddel's work are the two courses at Purdue University...the Ackerman Hills course (South) and the no-named North course...at least he is credited as the architect of these courses.

As many of you may know, the North Course was completely plowed under about 3 or 4 years ago to make way for a brand-new course designed by none other than...Mr. Pete Dye!!!  I have yet to make it back to campus and play the new layout, but hear it is quite nice.  The previous North course was nothing but a fairly flat "dog-track" of a course meandering near some wetland areas, with a few push-up greens and lots of brown.  I understand that the new course is being used for various forms of research (turf, water, course conditioning) making it a working "lab" so to speak.  I'd be interested to hear if anyone knows anything further of what is going on there in West Lafayette.

As for the old South course (which still exists as far as I know), I played it many a time during my graduate studies at Purdue...cheap for students, built on hilly terrain, and certainly nothing to write home about.  I think Mr. Diddel did a nice job of fitting the course into the space he was given there, but architecturally, there is little to truly impress.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:01 PM by -1 »
Born Rochester, MN. Grew up Miami, FL. Live Cleveland, OH. Handicap 13.2. Have 26 & 23 year old girls and wife of 29 years. I'm a Senior Supply Chain Business Analyst for Vitamix. Diehard walker, but tolerate cart riders! Love to travel, always have my sticks with me. Mollydooker for life!

Jim_Kennedy

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Why does Bill Diddel get no respect?
« Reply #22 on: January 06, 2002, 01:54:18 PM »
TJSturges,
I think if you have a look in the architects section of C/W you will see a slew of others whose work has been diddled with.
No architect's work is safe and many have courses listed as NLE. And they all added to, remodeled or totally rebuilt works that others in their profession produced. In some cases it looks as though nearly half an architect's portfolio consists of having a go at what another architect wrought.

It surely seems that Bill Diddel, the man, is well respected and we know modern architects who feel this way about him and his work(Crenshaw & the Kerns). I have not read anything that would detract from him as a person, his abilities as a player or his dedication to his work. It is a shame that works of his are being trampled on but I don't think it's anything new. Hopefully some of it will be saved and appreciated for a long time to come.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
"I never beat a well man in my life" - Harry Vardon

TJSturges

Re: Why does Bill Diddel get no respect?
« Reply #23 on: January 06, 2002, 07:13:14 PM »
To:  JakaB

Some would argue that the course is better now.  Overall, I can't say I really like what was done there by Kern.  They had a club founded near the turn of the century and a course that was old and classic in design.  Kern's master plan included puting wood facing on many of the water hazards fronting green complexes, which has provided this old course with a moden/TPC look on some holes.  I do think they improved the 8th hole, taking a straight short par 5 and turning it into a dogleg left hole that is much better than the previous model.   It's not like the work done was really bad, I just think it's another example of a classic course being "modernized".  Is it better?  I think we'll better answer the question 20 years from now.  Camargo in Ohio just finished an expensive multi-year project which basically "un-did" the work Von Hagge did there in the seventies.  They decided 25 years later that the course was better the old way.

TS
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Bill Amick, ASGCA

Re: Why does Bill Diddel get no respect?
« Reply #24 on: January 07, 2002, 12:43:36 PM »
Mr. T. J. Sturges, I highly respect the golf course design work done by William H. Diddel.  And he was one of the kindest, smartest and humblest human beings I've known.

Just out of Purdue, Mr. Diddel hired me because he knew I wanted to become a golf course architect.  On our honeymoon my wife wasn't too impressed by my taking time to track him down on a golf course in Florida to introduce them.  I continued to keep in touch with him until his death.

Not only did I learn a lot from him technically about designing courses, but probably more enlightening was sensing his strong belief that golf courses should be interesting to their players.  I am also indebted because of his urging to apply to the American Society of Golf Course Architects and then as a sponsor lobbying them to accept me.  (Hey no one's perfect, except maybe Del Ratcliffe!)

The many interesting and reasonably-priced golf courses he designed are trophies enough, but his grand slam could still be ahead.  In the 1930s he tried to get suitable not-so-lively golf balls made so courses required less land, didn't cost as much and rounds took a shorter amount of time to complete.  In the 1950s he introduced me to his idea through having me try some test balls he'd had made.

Here definitely is one respecter of Mr. Diddel's courses, his kindness, his keen mind and his vision.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

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