Course design in absentia (Alison and Huntingdale)

[NAF]

I was looking through Paul Daley's book on the Sandbelt and the history of the Huntingdale Golf Club.  It seems the club was built by Berriman in 1941 but the design is credited to my old friend C.H. Alison.  However, it says that topigraphical maps, etc were cabled to him in England...If I read it right, he never walked, stalked or visited the property, just routed it according to maps he was given.  So basically, Alison was up in his study routing a course 12,000 miles away.  I find this fascinating and wonder if it was par for the course during this time period.  Doak describes the course as bland and the Firestone of Australia.  It looks much better than that with the pictures I saw in Paul's book but I wonder how much better the course could be with an architect who walks the property.  I guess some of the issues we have with modern course design and *mailing it in* could be attributed to the same kind of criticism with architects not walking the properties or having associates do much of the work.. I know of one recent course not open yet where Bill Coore spents weeks in the woods trying to map out a correct routing.. It always seems the more time spent stalking the holes the better the routing and the course..And we haven't even talked about bunker style etc yet..

[Tom MacWood (Guest)]

Colt was unsuttled by this practice, although they also designed a course in NZ and one or two in India, and one I think in Malaysia this same way. One of the major problems with this practice is exicution. As far as I can tell Alison never once traveled to Australia, so it is doubtful those building the course were familar with Alison's methods, practices or style. I suspect MacKenzie mailed in one or more designs to Australia, but he had been there and had worked with those who ultimately executed his designs, instructing them on what he wanted. Same with Ross and those who were intimately familar with his practices.

[Doug Wright]

As Brad Klein will tell you, Donald Ross did the plans for many courses based on topo maps and never saw the places. A couple that I've studied a lot in the past year, Wilmington (NC)Municipal GC and Wellshire GC in Denver, fall into this category. I think one of Ross's trademarks--locating tees and greens on the highest pieces of ground--emanated from this practice.  It's a measure of true genious in my mind that the courses turned out as they did. Of course, DR had some pretty good people "on the ground" putting his plans into action.

Happy Holidays,  

[Bob_Huntley]

Tom:

Unsuttled?

Bob

[Tom MacWood (Guest)]

Bob
Sorry, that should read 'unsettled'. Have you played any of Alison's So.African courses, Bryantson or Glendower?

[Ran Morrissett]

Noel,

Huntingdale is Paul's home club so we need to be careful what we say, right Paul?    Still, I believe Paul would agree that the course's routing is not of particular note. Yes, it gets both loops back to the clubhouse but other than that, I wouldn't say there is anything magical or special about the routing (i.e. no magical or special holes specifically resulted from it). "Functional" pretty much sums up Huntingdale's routing, at least to me.

Do I wish Huntingdale was in my backyard? You bet. However, does a magical spark seem to be missing? Yes, and if an ace architect like Alison had spent time on site, the odds of that spark being found goes up X times,  be it in the routing and/or in the specifics of each hole.

Certainly, it didn't take MacKenzie long to provide the spark at Kingston Heath, which occupies a dullish piece of land. As Tom MacWood suggests, only by the Good Doctor being there could he properly convey his bunker vision. Perhaps only by standing on the 15th tee could he see the benefit of bringing the greenside bunker some hundred yards closer to the tee area. Sure, he could have come to the same conclusion by using a topo map thousands of miles away but ironically, such touches always seem to be done by an architect on site.

Cheers,

[harley Kruse]

One wonders had Alison visited Melbourne whether the sand belt would have had  the influence of the"Allison" pot bunker (for which he became famous for in Japan) and how this perhaps may have been a distraction from the purity of MacKenzie,Russell& Morcom's strong influence over the future bunkering of the Sandbelt courses.

[TEPaul]

Simply mailing in a course design from England to Australia, never having seen the site with only a topo for the design process and no familiar foreman, crews on site, etc has to have been such a dice throw as to hardly be imaginable.

I can see pulling it off on a relatively flattish site but one with complexity of topography or interesting natural features would be a real shot in the dark process, in my opinion.

Certainly an architect of Alison's ability could likely design a course with better balance and distance variety etc and routing principles than someone spending time on site without his architectural expertise, but still the likelihood of individual hole problems and other problems would seem to be unavoidable.

Even for an architect very experienced in the nuances of topo reading could make some egregious errors in translating design into reliable and acceptable playability without some reliable help on site. Ross may not have seen some of the sites he designed but I'm certain from reading Brad's book that his well organized and somewhat symbiotic foremen and crews could iron things out so much better than a simple "mail-in" with no one on site familiar with the architect! Ross was also clearly sophisticated for his time in communicating by letter, diagram and telegram with his handpicked crews!

What if the topo was inaccurate or even slightly so? Even spending hours and hours on site and matching up what you're seeing to a topo sometimes can get a bit complex! If you ever get the chance, go out on a proposed site even with a really good topo and try to design a golf course--it ain't in the slightest bit easy--it really is a huge jigsaw puzzle.

For great design, there really is no shortcut for lots and lots of time on site, in my opinion!

[Tom MacWood (Guest)]

In the late 30's in a letter to his partner, Colt wrote about another paper job - Bombay GC. "I'm expecting to get one hundred guineas from Bombay, who have written to say that they are delighted with the course, which makes me pleased, as these contour map schemes are always a bit tricky."

He no doubt understood it was a gamble, but in the late 30's (Huntingdale was designed in around '37) jobs were difficult to come by due to economic difficulties, foriegn travel was a little dicey with political trouble brewing and I get the impression these guys were pretty desperate. After Alison's journey to Japan in the early part of the decade, they had very little work in the 30's. And from the sounds of the letter, they may have produced a few of these jobs.

[Tom MacWood (Guest)]

I could be wrong, but I seem to recall reading that Berriman was familar with Alison, I think they were friends - he may have been Oxford or Cambridege educated. And he may have had some familarity with Alison's work. Plus its hard to go wrong with so many wonderful courses nearby to gather inspiration.

[NAF]

Ran.

I would never vex the distinguished Mr. Daley's course.  In fact the pictures in his book make it look very good.
Besides I am looking fwd to meeting and playing with Paul when Jim Reilly and I go down in 2002.  I just was trying to reconcile how Doak called the course the Firestone of Australia when the pictures made it look anything so.  Having played an Alison foreign course and a few Colt designs I would describe their layouts as anything but bland so when I read the history of Huntingdale and saw Alison designed it in his study it made some more sense..Like TEPaul said, designing from a topi map only could result in some egregious errors which might lend itself to routing mistakes, parallel holes etc..I am anxious to see the bunkering style at Huntingdale up close to see if it resembles anything I saw at Kawana..

On another note, I hope to visit the remains of an Alison relic this winter when we have a warm day.  I plan to drive out to Timber Point and see if I can see anything left from his design there and take some pics...

[Tom MacWood (Guest)]

Noel
I believe that Mike Cirba has played Timber Point several times, I recall he was lamenting while back about some changes that further deteriated Alison's original intent. I think he has a handful of other designs in the NYC area - Century, Old Oak, Canoe Brook-South? If you make it to Ohio, I would strongly recommend Kirtland.

I think I have confused Berriman with Alex Russell who was English educated. Does Paul Daley's book mention how/why Berriman was chosen to carry out Alison's design at Huntingdale?

[NAF]

Tom,

Hoping to see Canoe Brook and Century this upcoming season...Timber Point being a muni is mobbed in the summer and I can think of better places to play..I was hoping to see the 2 par 3s on the Blue 9 there (one is the Gibraltar hole Alison copied from Dr.Mac)..

I dont think I am confusing Russell with Berriman...I think Berriman was in charge of several projects in Oz back then and he was Alison's man.  I dont remember reading Russell having anything to do with the course.

Noel

[GeoffreyC]

Noel

Century is a really good one to see. It has a really heathland feel to it and the restoration Gil Hanse, Rodney Hine and Bill Kittleman did was outstanding. It's a tough one to get on but well worth the effort. A semi-hidden gem buried in Westchester amoung all the other gems.

Let me know if your're going to Timber Point.  I'd love to join you as I've not been there and have no desire to do so "in season". You should get to Moortown to see the original Gibraltar hole.  It's nearby to Alwoodly, Woodhall Spa and Ganton and that makes for a nice trip.

[Tom MacWood (Guest)]

Noel
No I wasn't saying you were confused, but that I was mistaken when I said Berriman may have been British educated - I had confuded him with Russell. There is no doubt it was Berriman at Huntingdale - I was just curious as to how/why he was engaged by the club.

[NAF]

Geoff,

Timber Point closes Jan 1 until March 15, I just called, I was hoping to get out in the winter so  I guess we will have to wait until early spring..

Tom, I guess Berriman was suggested by the powers that be who were forming the club at the time.  He was an aspiring architect at the time..Perhaps Paul, Mike Duffy or Mike Clayton can help to solve why?

[Mark_Huxford]

Tom what course in New Zealand did Colt/Alison design from topographical maps?

[Mike Clayton]

NAF

Berrriman was the curator -as superintendants were always known in Aus.- at Huntingdale. Vern Morcom also did much design work while he was curator -40 years- at Kingston Heath.

[Tom MacWood (Guest)]

Mark
Some have credited him with Auckland GC and others with Maungakiekie and some say he did both. I suspect he only was involved with one and I would guess Maungakiekie - but that is only a guess.

[Greg Ramsay]

Well it seems that everyone has been crying out for Paul Daley's input on this thread, and even though it is midnight and is Paul's Wedding Anniversary Eve, and he has a 6am tee-time 2morrow, I just had to call him to notify of his need to respond to this thread.

My only point is that I was astounded just how close to Alison's map was the actual original routing oif the course that Berriman built.  If Paul Daley had a bigger tech-head he may even be able to put them up, I'll have a go, i have pics of both.  I actually don't think it is the routing at Huntingdale at all that lets it down, I think its bunkering/strategy off the tee is its major fall down- I also think the course is over vegetated, the old pics of the course have few trees remaining and it looks more like Kingston Heath will in 10 years- sparse clumps of trees only where strategy/aesthetics requires.  Not golf holes routed between lines of trees.

Harley Kruse's point about the bunkering style is very true, and what a relief Alison didn't come down to do any of his pots to poison our great sandbelt bunkering.  One of Australia's current design firm's has attempted this and has learned that the clubs will not accept it!

Will try and get the pics up soon.  NAF, you will have to make an overnight side-trip to Tasmania (50min flight) to see Barnbougle Dunes.

Greg Ramsay
www.barnbougledunes.com

[PETER_G (Guest)]

Greg
I always thought Huntingdale's bunkering was nowhere near as intersting as RM or KH, but I agree that pot bunkering (a la Allison) would have been much worse. I also agree that the course would be much better off with a reasonable dose of chain saw.
I am particularly interested in the history lesson - which design firm tried the potbunkering on the sandbelt on which course, what was the members reaction and what then prevailed?

[Greg Ramsay]

Are you based in Melbourne Peter?  You are right that Huntingdale's bunkering is not nearly as attractive as RM or KH- although I really love the look of the new bunkering that Newton, Grant & Spencer have put in.  What I don't love about the new bunkering is the actual positioning- i.e. they look great, but strategically don't inspire me.  Too many of them are in front of greens, taking away the opportunity to run the ball in, with no reward for strategic placement off the tee to ensure a safer approach.  You may well be interested in Paul Daley's comments in the Interview of next month about the course upgrade.  On the whole the upgrade is in my opinion an impreovement to the course- but if just a few of those in-front-of-green bunkers were removed it would be so much better.  They may as well be surrounded by water from a strategic standpoint.

I understand that pot-style bunkers have been put in at Peninsula GC, Victoria GC and Barwon Heads GC- all to the horror of the members who rapidly shortened that designer's course consulting/design contract.

Greg Ramsay
www.barnbougledunes.com

[Shane Gurnett]

Greg

Where are the new pot bunkers at Victoria and Barwon Heads?

Agree with you re: the bunkering at Huntingdale. Too many bunkers and no room to run the ball in.

[Greg Ramsay]

Have just been looking at the original Alison routing of Barwon Heads, and was once again struck by just how accurately Berriman implemented it.  I have tried to scan Alison's routing, but to no avail as the scanner will not pick up his very fine line drawings.  Without the original, no use putting up the modern day layout.  Alisons routing itself does not have many fairway bunkers to challenge the tee-shot, but on 4 of the holes where Alison did plan bunkers off the tee, they appear not to have been constructed, or were certainly not features in the 1980's, resulting in a course with little strategy off the tee.

Shane, the 'pot' buners at Victoria and Barwon Heads are not like the British pot bunkers dug out of the ground with sod walls, but are above the ground with no sod walls, but finely landscaped.  You'll be able to find them at Camden Lakeside, the Ocean Course at the National and at the Dukes Course in St. Andrews Scotland, all designs by Thomson Wolveridge & Perrett.  I think they are great on less interesting sites requiring a lot of earthmoving, such as The Links Hope Island and The Links Port Douglas, but personally I don't think are at all suited to the sandbelt or other sandy sites.  They are a real 'trademark' of the TWP design.  At Barwon Heads they are on the par 5 on the back 9 and on the following par 4.  I understand that after those holes were modified the membership decided not to continue with any more of that style of bunkering.  Have not seen them at Victoria, but heard they were not very popular there either.

[Shane Gurnett]

Greg

Re the pot bunkers at Barwon Heads, I think you mean the ones on the 14th and 15th, which I agree look ordinary and out of character with the rest of the course. Not so sure about Vic, but haven't been down there for a while.

The TWP style of pot numkers are very much a love it or hate it thing. I must confess I'm not a fan. I think they also feaure heavily on the new TWP design at Sandhurst in Carrum (whenever it comes out of the ground).