[jeffwarne]

At most private USA clubs in my experience, the money goes to people, people, people everywhere. People to greet you in the parking lot, people to carry your bag from inside the clubhouse to outside the clubhouse. People in the bar. People in the dining room. People in the other dining room. Someone in the locker room. People cleaning the multiple rest rooms. People in the kitchen. People gardening. People maintaining the course. People bringing carts to the players and taking them back to storage. People washing the carts. People cleaning range balls.

And every soul among them gets paid. As do the multiple supervisors/foremen/managers/straw-bosses. And as do the big boss(es) over the supervisors. Oh, and the office staff. And a pro. And some assistant pros. Occasionally even a clerk in the proshop in addition to the pro and assistants.

It's pretty darned overwhelming even at clubs that only bring $200-$400 a month in dues from fewer than a thousand members. Hard to see how the books ever balanced even when the good times were rolling.

and those same people are there on rainy days, weekdays, etc. because God forbid a member pull up announced late on a Monday afternoon and have to pull his clubs from his trunk.
When i worked at long cove i installed a gas station bell so I could do club repair while "manning" the bag drop late during the off season. A member backed up into the drop area stopping 6 inches short of the bellwire so no ring was produced-thus no shining cart attendant
heads rolled......and they added another staff member

[Steve Kline]

Chris...

In all seriousness, the thanks go to you. 

And I am not worried that you are going to mess with Rivermont, I am wondering what club you are going to take over and/or start-up with this idea. 

For the love of God, let it be something in Cincinnati. Chris would then have a good excuse to come up and play the Am Qualifier at Camargo every year. He could even write it off as a business expense.

If I were to ever move to Cincinnati (the chances are about 1% of that happening) it might be to Atlanta just so I can join Rivermont. I haven't played but I love what I have read about how Chris runs the club and the pictures I have seen.

Chris or Mac - are you allowed to make more than one tee time? The one thing that I loved about the first course I was a member at was no tee times. So, on there were many regular games (everyone knew their slot) but the pro would try to work singles in with certain groups based on the level of golf played in the group. My current club has tee times but they would let me make two or three in a row. We had a group of 8-12 guys every week (out of a pool of 20 or so) that played an A-B scratch game with skins. I kept stats and a money list for everybody. It made being a member at a suspect course and club much more enjoyable.

[Mac Plumart]

Steve...

If you ever pass through Atlanta, give me a shout.  I'll get you a game at Rivermont.  I'll even make Chris play with us...he keeps threatening to play with me someday, but I think my epic game has him intimidated.

I don't know on the multiple tee time thing.  I always just call up and say I'd like to play at x:xx o'clock and am told, "Ok.  Come on by."

[Mark Chaplin]

How about a membership where the staff work on Mondays? I truly cannot understand a system where a course maybe open for only 8 months a year yet when it's open it's closed one day a week....crazy

[JMEvensky]

How about a membership where the staff work on Mondays? I truly cannot understand a system where a course maybe open for only 8 months a year yet when it's open it's closed one day a week....crazy

I don't know how true this is anymore.

Back in the day,Mondays were reserved for maintenance with the golf course closed to the members.Now,Mondays are frequently used for non-member outings and,at least in my part of the world,allow member play on Mondays without outings.

My guess would be the number of clubs closed to member play on Mondays is now very small.

[Mark Chaplin]

JME - clubhouse open and full service? In the UK many clubs use annualised hours so the staff work long weeks at the busy times but get paid normal money then during the quiet times with less hours they still get normal pay.

[Jeff Shelman]

Steve,

You should play Rivermont. It is really good and really fun.

I'd be stunned if you didn't like it. There are interesting holes, but no holes where good shots aren't rewarded.

[Simon Holt]

So Wentworth is £500 per month at least.  Is there a joining fee and/or some equity purchase, do you know?

However, at that price it still looks a lot cheaper than many of the smarter US country clubs or the new US style clubs in the UK (Queenwood, Loch Lomond, Renaissance).

Hi Mark,

This year Renaissance is £2700 plus VAT.  This covers all golf (bar big events) of the member, their spouse and all kids under 23 at no extra cost.  An accompanied guest is £40 and an unaccompanied is £80.  There is no limit to how many guests, accompanied or unaccompanied, that you can bring in the calendar year.  Our membership currently stands at 170 since opening in April 2008.  Oh, and a pint at the bar is £2.50. 

I very much doubt any of the clubs that you mentioned in our UK bracket can compete with those prices....mainly because sometimes I wonder myself!!

I pay £500 a year at North Berwick but that, to coin a phrase, is like comparing apples and pears! (but £3.10 a pint!!!)

I hope everyone is well- great thread Chris, very thought provoking.

Simon

[Mark Pearce]

Simon,

Just so I don't lose my bearings, is that £2700 pcm or pa (I assume the former)?  I did note when I was at RC last year how very reasonable food and drink was.  What I guess distinguishes RC and LL from US Country Clubs is that they are really golf only facilities?  Does anyone know if Queenwood is more than golf?

And £500 pa at North Berwick is daylight robbery.  Is that a reduced rate for age?  It seems most UK clubs have discounts for U35s.

Mark

[JMEvensky]

JME - clubhouse open and full service? In the UK many clubs use annualised hours so the staff work long weeks at the busy times but get paid normal money then during the quiet times with less hours they still get normal pay.

I can only speak with certainty about my place but it's heading in that direction.

What started a few years ago as limited "open-ness",is slowly moving toward Monday being no different than any other day.The office staff is there,the maintenance staff is there,the bag room is already attended.My guess is that someone will decide to just open the kitchen as well.

There is a group of younger members who have no recollection of Mondays being closed at all clubs.

Nobody wants to run the risk of pissing off a single member.

[Michael Wharton-Palmer]

Golf in the UK id generally cheap.
Everytime I go home and see how low the fees are, I wonder how they manage to keep the places going, but then look at the course maintenance budget and understand the big difference...that is where it usually lies.
I think the $500 model discussed here would work wonderfully for most areas, in fact that is very similar to what we pay here in Texarkana for our Langford/Moreau golf course.
We dont have a specific deal like the one discussed, but by the time you add up all our dues etc...that would be a realistic figure to take to our members for a vote!

[Roger Wolfe]

How about a membership where the staff work on Mondays? I truly cannot understand a system where a course maybe open for only 8 months a year yet when it's open it's closed one day a week....crazy

I don't know how true this is anymore.

Back in the day,Mondays were reserved for maintenance with the golf course closed to the members.Now,Mondays are frequently used for non-member outings and,at least in my part of the world,allow member play on Mondays without outings.

My guess would be the number of clubs closed to member play on Mondays is now very small.

Again... this is a financial question.  We close when we can to allow 12 hours of maintenance on the golf course.  We do, however, take a certain number of outside outings to generate an extra 70k per year ($14 per member per month we do not have to charge in dues).  We do open when we know our members will want to play (Bank Holidays... Monday between Xmas and New Year's).

We also close our restaurant on Tuesdays and only have the snack bar and bar open.  If your club is having financial issues... this is a great way to lop a big chunk of F&B payroll.  Tuesday is the dreaded "6th day" which means overtime and a lot of hourly wages wasted.  Consider only opening your full service dining Wed - Sun and you will reap some serious rewards.

[JMEvensky]

Roger--nowadays,everything is a financial question.

[Adam Lawrence]

What I just don't get about US golf is how it got where it is. Who on earth came to the conclusion that bag drop was worth paying for? How hard is it to park your own car, open the boot (trunk), take our your clubs and shoes and walk to the clubhouse?

From a UK perspective, it's impossible to comprehend why American golfers pay what they pay for the game. I know US climatic conditions mean courses are inevitably more expensive to maintain than is typical in the UK, but, that is only a small part of the divide. I understand the distaste for being nickled and dimed, but the flipside is that everyone must surely realise that extra services cost money to provide, and that's reflected in your subscription.

Given there are a lot of troubled golf courses on the market at knockdown prices in the US at the moment, I should have thought that there would be opportunities to do the kind of thing Chris is suggesting, especially if one were in the fortunate position of being a cash buyer.

[Mac Plumart]

Adam...

I agree with every point you just made.  Excellent post, questions, and comments.

[Simon Holt]

Simon,

Just so I don't lose my bearings, is that £2700 pcm or pa (I assume the former)?  I did note when I was at RC last year how very reasonable food and drink was.  What I guess distinguishes RC and LL from US Country Clubs is that they are really golf only facilities?  Does anyone know if Queenwood is more than golf?

And £500 pa at North Berwick is daylight robbery.  Is that a reduced rate for age?  It seems most UK clubs have discounts for U35s.

Mark

Mark,

No reduced rate for age at North Berwick other than juniors (up to 18, £90 pa!!) and then Intermediate which is 18-21 which is half the rate I pay.  It is ridiculously cheap but no complaints here!!  We are heavily subsidized by the visitors who I believe pay £85 a round on a weekday and £95 on the weekend.

The Renaissance Club price I quoted is per annum.  If you have a wife/husband that golfs and a few kids then it is the deal of the century, as long as you can stretch to the bond price that is.  We make up the rest of our costs through the rooms which are not as cheap as the beer.....

I hope to see you up at NB this year.

Simon

[Tim Nugent]

What I just don't get about US golf is how it got where it is. Who on earth came to the conclusion that bag drop was worth paying for? How hard is it to park your own car, open the boot (trunk), take our your clubs and shoes and walk to the clubhouse?

From a UK perspective, it's impossible to comprehend why American golfers pay what they pay for the game. I know US climatic conditions mean courses are inevitably more expensive to maintain than is typical in the UK, but, that is only a small part of the divide. I understand the distaste for being nickled and dimed, but the flipside is that everyone must surely realise that extra services cost money to provide, and that's reflected in your subscription.

Given there are a lot of troubled golf courses on the market at knockdown prices in the US at the moment, I should have thought that there would be opportunities to do the kind of thing Chris is suggesting, especially if one were in the fortunate position of being a cash buyer.

Adam, I've always wondered the same thing but then again I was always on the outside looking.  Perhaps it goes to ego and not wanting to be the one who questions the status quo - thus being labeled "cheap".  Or perhaps it is the mentality that goes with "it's okay because there are 349 other gus paying for it".  A good saying from Dad was "a golf clubhouse is the opulent home you can't afford to have but as long as others are paying for it - let's do it!"

[JC Jones]

How about a membership where the staff work on Mondays? I truly cannot understand a system where a course maybe open for only 8 months a year yet when it's open it's closed one day a week....crazy

I don't know how true this is anymore.

Back in the day,Mondays were reserved for maintenance with the golf course closed to the members.Now,Mondays are frequently used for non-member outings and,at least in my part of the world,allow member play on Mondays without outings.

My guess would be the number of clubs closed to member play on Mondays is now very small.

Again... this is a financial question.  We close when we can to allow 12 hours of maintenance on the golf course.  We do, however, take a certain number of outside outings to generate an extra 70k per year ($14 per member per month we do not have to charge in dues).  We do open when we know our members will want to play (Bank Holidays... Monday between Xmas and New Year's).

We also close our restaurant on Tuesdays and only have the snack bar and bar open.  If your club is having financial issues... this is a great way to lop a big chunk of F&B payroll.  Tuesday is the dreaded "6th day" which means overtime and a lot of hourly wages wasted.  Consider only opening your full service dining Wed - Sun and you will reap some serious rewards.

And to think I was going to head over today for a Quesadilla at lunch.....

[Mark Pearce]

Simon,

I'm surprised.  I didn't appreciate the RC model was that reasonable (once you got past the bond).  It begs the question as to why similar clubs in  the US are so much more.

I also didn't realise NB was that cheap though appreciate that, like Crail but probably moreso, it benefits from visitor green fees.  I guess for the big name courses that get lots of visitor play (Open rota courses plus a few others) membership can be heavily subsidised.

Will definitley see you at NB this summer.

Mark

[Joe Sponcia]

Chris,

Your comments and your love for your club really shows. 

I was wondering why instead of "no tee times", you simply, on busy days FRI/SAT/SUN, left one or two tee times vacant per hour on the hour for people who don't have a game to come.  I can't recall the many times I was supposed to do something Sat morning with the Fam and then Friday night my wife says, "Honey, blah blah blah isn't going to happen, why don't you play golf"?  With many clubs booking a week in advance, members having auto-renew tee times (which frosts me), and life happening...what does the guy do that gets a last minute pass?  Or the guy that just joined and doesn't know anyone after a transfer?  This time system would facilitate member interaction and younger guys with families whose schedule can change on a moments notice.

Your thoughts?

Joe

[Jeff Shelman]

Joe,

Your idea has great merit. A club I previously belonged to had every other tee time left open on weekend mornings and every third tee time left open the rest of the time. The only way you could get those times was to show up at the club.

The weekend morning times led to many people (including myself) just showing up and getting a game.

The weekday times allowed people who found themselves free to be able to play.

I rarely made tee times. Usually only when I was bringing out guests or had a match.

[Tom ORourke]

Simple can be great. I have been laying for the past 20 years at a 9 hole course. I have taken a cart 5 times in 20 years. 3 of them in one week when it was 105 degrees. You never need to take a cart, there are no tee times, there is no bag drop to speak of, the course is always in good shape, and the club house is closed on Mondays but the course is open. Our dining room minimum is $75 per quarter. We are not as "fancy" as a lot of places, but we are solvent, well-priced, and have been in business since 1892, so simple can work just fine. One of my daughters went to a college where everything was in the tuition, room and board except books. The president of the college hated places with hidden fees, extra charges. Even the washing machines were included. His feeling was that you were paying enough that they did not need to hit you up for quarters to do your laundry. He stressed quality and the fact that you knew exactly what you were going to pay. I think that works for golf as well.

[Michael George]

A similar model is being used at a club in northeast Ohio. 

It is $15,000 initiation.  Annual dues are paid once a year at $4,500 (includings all set fees).  You get billed monthly for food, drinks, carts and guests only.  Guest fees are very reasonnable (under $75 with cart).  Simple clubhouse with locker room, grille room and pro shop - that is it.  No breakfast or dinner is served (except steak/salmon Wednesdays - where you cook for yourself and there is a buffet for fixings, salad and a couple of sides).  Lunch is always a buffet and includes great soups, salads and sandwiches.  They have 1-2 kitchen people.  They staff 1 bartender at a time.  They close in November and re-open in April.  You can play during this time, but no food is served (bar is open if nice day) and once it is dormant, they don't maintain the course.  There are no tee times.  They accept no outings.  I don't think they even accept raters.  They have a Opening Day, a Member-Member, a Club Championship, a Father-Son and a Closing Day - that is it. It pretty much follows the mantra - play golf, have a drink and go home.

They are one of the only clubs in northeast Ohio that is financially in great shape and actually have a waiting list to join. 

[BHoover]

Michael, that sounds like the ideal model for clubs in this day and age. I'm trying to think of clubs in NE Ohio that might fit the description. A couple come to mind. And I believe The Golf Club has a similar philosophy.

Unfortunately, my current club has not adopted that model. The membership seems to prefer for the club to display an aura of prestige, which means trying to offer more frills than are necessary. And the cost of focusing on pointless frills is the golf course, which needs lots of TLC to bring out what could be a great course. We need massive tree removal, improved turf conditions (more firm/fast and a LOT less water), etc.

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