How do you make it last four hours....

[Bob_Huntley]

In a number of recent threads, there have been references to courses in Scotland having few Americans on them and subsequently whiizzing around in three hours.

When playing Cypress,Pebble or MPCC with the surf pounding, the deer grazing and hawks soaring  above, brilliant winter sun and the smell of salt air, all I want to do is make it last. I think I can be regarded as a fairly fast player and yet sometimes I do not want the round to end. Is there anyone out there that feel as I do?

[Tim_Weiman]

Bob,

Not to sound too highminded, but my Dad taught me how to play golf and to never lose sight of the fact that there were other people on the golf course.  He taught me that on every hole I should look behind me 3 or 4 times (at the tee, in the fairway, while on the green) as a courtesy to others keep moving along.

Unfortunately, the prevailing attitude today in America "I've paid my green fees, so I'll take my time".  So often people forget that they may have paid their green fees, but they sure didn't rent out the entire course.

If we Americans just screwed things up at home I guess I'd only be mildly upset.  But, unfortunately we are exporting our miserable habits across the pond.  During the summer of 2000 I sat in the Marine Hotel at Ballybunion listening to a group of Americans argue that you really couldn't play golf in less than five hours.  Very politely I mentioned that I used to play there in about 3 hours.

On of the worst places overseas today is The Old Head where Americans now routinely take close to six hours a la Pebble Beach.

I'd much prefer good old fashioned Scotish or Irish golf.  We Americans need to clean up our act.

Sorry for ranting.

[ed_getka]

Bob,
 I doubt any of us want our rounds/time on the golf course to end, especially in the sublime settings you described. Unfortunately the obligations of life pull us away while we dream of yet another day when our soul can be nourished.

[Jim_Kennedy]

BoB,
I can't really blame anyone who has just plunked down $350.00 at Pebble, $250.00 at #2 or $125.00 at Ballybunion for taking their time. Golf at those prices is directed at tourists and tourists take their time, they aren't there to rush. It isn't just an "I paid my money" attitude.

Tim,
We Americans don't just export our slow play, we are welcomed with open arms. If the management at Old Head or Ballybunion wanted to enforce 3 hour rounds they could. I don't think it will happen because they are unwilling to lose the dollars from tourist golf. They could not charge anywhere near their present fees if it weren't for the influx of off shore cash.
You appreciate "good old fashioned Scottish or Irish golf". That can at least be had at many courses other than those that tourists frequent.

  

[Dan Grossman]

I feel like I should explain my "whizzing around Scotland in less than three hours comment".    I more than anyone enjoy a leisurely round of golf.  However, my favorite rounds in Scotland were the ones that I felt like I was playing the game and not having to worry about people either in front or behind me.  Due to the fact that we were playing 36 a day, I enjoyed the fact that my playing partner and I could tee off at 9am, finish by noon, have lunch and several pints, and then tee back off at 2:30.  Had we had to deal with 4 and 5 hour rounds, I never would have been able to play 36 a day, and I am 25 years old!!!  I felt relaxed in the sense that I wasn't bothered by anyone and didn't have to worry about playing through anyone or letting anyone play through.  In addition, only at the courses inundated with Americans (like St. Andrews and Kingsbarns) did they EVER play foursomes.  Every place else sent two and threeballs off the tee.

We played in a two ball at almost every "lesser" known course and had caddies, so it was an atmosphere similar to a fourball, but only two of us were playing.  At Montrose, I felt like we were on the golf course forever, and I looked at my watch and we had played in 2:45!  Not once did I feel rushed.  I took satisfaction that I was playing the game the way the Scots meant it to be played.  

However, in the States, rarely do we walk and rarely are the tees and greens as close as they are in Scotland.  I feel that a quick round of golf without rushing is 3:15 and anything under four hours is quick.  Plus, we almost always play foursomes.  It is apples and oranges.  Please don't go to Scotland and plan to spend 4+ hours on the golf course.  Spend as much time as you think you need to on the golf course, you might find that it is 3 hours or less.

[cbradmiller]

Tim, I  was taught the same thing by my father and first boss. I'm always amazed how many people play with blinders. (many times members w/ 3 quests, business?)  Reminds me of a short story. I'm hosting a quest at my home club, good golfer (7-8) that moved east from midwest a few years ago and hasn't joined a club yet, in the past I have taken him out twice a year. We are playing a very casual round and if memory serves me right I'm one down on 13. We took some time looking for anothers lost ball and by the time we reach the green his partner lies two within easy 2 putt range, my partner is in his pocket the (7-8) guy lies 4 in two putt range and I lie 3 in a greenside bunker. I look back and see that the trailing group is ready to play their 2nd shots, I state, "lets go" to which the (7-8) guy replies, "only if you concede the hole" (our individual). Lets just say I don't expect play with this guy again, am I to being to harsh??

[redanman (Guest)]

I think the American method of bets-a-flyin' nine ways to Sunday, the I paid mine mentality, count every stroke coupled with Oh! what beautiful scenery leads to slower and slower rounds.

I learned to play fast young because it is so freakin' hot in the summer in South Florida and even at age 12-15 lugging your bag on a 90-90 day, keeping moving keeps you cool and makes the iced teas come up quicker!

Hit it, find it, hit it in the hole, keep going.  Sightsee later.  It is our duty to play fast, if you're out there to play.

I hate to play with a group  of four for the reason that I have to watch 3 slow Americans putter and futz around before I get to hit.

I helped my wife when she learned the game Play fast.  Even if you shoot 200, no one can say anything to you.  (She has also gotten as low as a 15 index over the years) She plays in under 4 hours and as fast as 3 carrying her own.
 
MOVE IT or
TI 3VOM

Forwards or backwards!

But then again there's cypress trees, fog and the ocean!  

[John_D._Bernhardt]

Bob, I have never played a round in your world that I did not want to last forever. And as Mssr. Daley stated lets play 9/18 more comes to mind and  happens often. This is for the golfing world that plays at a 3 to 4 hour pace. Pebble can break with that more often than not, taking way from the joy of golf in golf heaven.

[John_McMillan]

CBrad -

I'm confused at your story.  What is the great faux-pas  you're trying to hang on Mr 7-8?  Should players not hole out because another group is near?  It sounds like your play was only temporarily slowed by the search for a lost ball.  Was the group's play at an appropriate pace before and after this hole?  As I understand the story, you expect to be given a half because - (i) your partner lost his ball, which the group searched for and (ii) another group came upon yours.  If that's the story, then I don't know of any etiquitte convention which Mr 7-8 violated.

[Brian Phillips]

John,

I thought it was just me. 7-8's partner is lying 2 in two putt range and he is lying 3 in two putt range and cbrad wants a half...

Cbrad, your playing a casual match, but it is still a match, right?  You have got to the 13th and for once you have been caught up by the group behind (only just, as you are all about to hole out especially if you let 7-8's partner hit his putt before your bunker shot) and you are getting stressed about the group behind.  

If I was worried about the pace and it was my partner's ball that everyone looked for I would give them the hole or let 7-8's partner hole out unless your real name is Gary Player and you thought you could hole the shot from the bunker....

But you haven't caused any stress to those behind you, have you?  You didn't spend 10 minutes looking for YOUR partners ball did you?  If I was 7-8, I am sure I would ask for the hole...damn right...a match is a match...

[cbradmiller]

John, team bet would have been conceded, win to Mr. (7-8's) team, half was only on our individual match. As to slow play, as this was a round with 3 quests two of which where 15pluses that don't play often our pace was slow, the group behind us had started approx half hour after us. (Clearly many high and low handicappers are both fast and slow, my comment on these two guys was not meant to imply that people above a certain handicap are slow. Maybe it's just a case of one had to be there, later after the round the two 15's made comments to me individually about the tone, timing of Mr.(7-8's) comment.

[Brian Phillips]

And another thing...

Sometimes the best way to play golf in Britain or anywhere(IMHO) is playing 'blind' as you call it.  I have met some of the most interesting characters ever by just turning up and playing on the 'bounce' as they call in the home of golf.

Of course there are times when it becomes a right pain in the arse but most of the time it great.  

I only wish I could convince women in Britain that I really don't mind playing a round of golf with them.  They seem to be in shock when I ask them...but find it fun when they see I mean it.

I have often even offered to play off the ladies tee just for a bit of fun and they love it.  I play only with irons off the tee and it gives you a perspective from the womens game...

[THuckaby2]

You can't fool me, Brian.  Perspective for the ladies' game indeed.  You just do this to meet women!

Smart man, I say.

As for slow play, fast play, etc. it is indeed apples and oranges and Dan G. explained it well.  But I'm also with Bob and John - if I'm playing a great course, I'm typically not there to set a speed record and I too don't want the round to end... of course if 36 is the order of the day (as it always is for me overseas at least) then hell yeah, move it!

 

TH

[cbradmiller]

Brian, team match was conceded, all that was left was me laying 3 in bunker and Mr.(7-8) laying 4 35 feet away.

[Tim_Weiman]

Jim Kennedy:

Fifteen years ago Ballybunion had many fewer visitors but the course was full of locals playing in three hours.  That has been lost.

Unfortunately, the art of managing pace of play has been lost, so far as I can tell.  The biggest problem is that people aren't taught when they are young.  Too many people think 4-5-6 hour rounds are okay; far few people think about being courteous to others playing the golf course.  I don't see many rangers, starters, managers, etc., able to deal with the problem.

You're right that people are quite happy to accept money and generally avoid doing anything to avoid offending their high paying guests.  That is why I speak out: if we don't criticize ourselves, our own lack of consideration for others, nobody will.

[Paul Richards]

Golf as a game and as a sport in America would be much
better served if we could get the game to speed up.

Devoting 4 1/2 to 5 hours plus travel time to and from, plus
time to warm up, plus social time, is just too hard for many Americans in today's busy society.

I have played some of those 3 hour rounds in the British Isles,
and it's wonderful!  Nothing about playing more quickly
lessens the experience.  In fact, it increases enjoyment
because it allows one the time to go back out and do it
again!

[THuckaby2]

Well said Paul.  However, there is a different way to look at this:  as one who has to beg his wife for the "hall pass" for every round, and having conditioned her to the typical time allotted for such (yep, 5.5 hours plus travel and warm up and post-round "add up" time), any round that goes quicker than this just allows for more drinking or golf time at the end!

So I for one am in no hurry for this impression of American golf to change.  Or put differently, I'd love to go faster, but just no one tell my wife!

Seriously, courses are just different here with FAR more distance from green to tee, in general.  Add that to the "if I don't hole out every hole I didn't play" attitude compared to match play in UK, and you can understand why our rounds take longer.

TH

[Ben Cowan-Dewar]

Tom is right, I think it is as much the designs as the culture.  Even when walking and carrying bags, when you have gaps between holes it will clearly take longer.  There are lots of places I have played in under three hours walking, but some that regardless of whether they are empty or not it will always be a struggle to get around in three hours.  Now on Saturday with lots of foursomes those courses become impossible.

[THuckaby2]

Having played quite a bit of golf with both of Bob and Rich, I will attest to:

a) each one damn well could play as fast as anyone you can imagine;

b) the fact each one chooses not to these days at the appropriate times evidences a wisdom I surely can and have learned from.

Well said, gents.

TH

[John_Lovito]

To me, 3.5 to 4 hours is the perfect pace.  I feel it provides a good balance of enjoying the match at hand, quality time with friends and enjoying the great outdoors.

That said, I'm working with the same hall pass as Tom. A quick loop means more time for a couple of drinks after the round and less time worrying about divorce lawyers.

[GeoffreyC]

Limks courses tend to be rather flat and the weather is never hot and overbearing.  There is no excuse to ever play in much more then three hours unless Carnoustie-like rough and a wild driving day slow you down.

However, playing at a brisk pace on the Yale course in summer, I almost never think of finishing in less then four hours even with the whole course open ahead of me (this is with foresomes).  It's hilly, and hot and stops for water and toweling off add a few minutes to the round.  I also walk at a slower pace between shots in the summer heat and over those hills.

The point is that different conditions and different courses will require different times to finish a round.

My general rule is to try never to hold up anyone behind me and to be ready to play when its my turn.

[Evan Fleisher]

Well said, Geoffrey!!!

I think we may be confusing things a bit here.  Laying down the "law" stating that ALL rounds of golf should be played in 3 hours or so is just ridiculous.  How about trying to complete a round at Blackwolf Run on that pace? (just a quick example).

Style of course, routing, playing conditions, weather conditions, number of players in group all have a direct effect on how long the round will take.  Now, I'm not advocating slowing things down...I reguluarly play my home course in 2:45 (walking)...but we have to take the proper perspective on what's going on around us.

I believe that "pace" should really be dictated by the other groups around you...you should not be hitting into the group in front, nor should you be holding anyone else up.  Is that possible?  Never, unfortunately, based on the many factors stated above...but these things can be controlled (somewhat) by education of the golfing public, and some sort of program to enahnce/reward faster play.  Another thing American golfers can do is STOP watching televised golf...talk about a boon-doggle!!!  Yikes!

I too am playing with a "hall pass" as TH and JohnL stated above...so those "extra" hours we end up with are usually put to good use somewhere!

There is nothing wrong with stopping to smell the roses once in a while.

[JakaB]

Evan,

Have you ever met Jim Gallo or seen him play?  He is on the front of Chicago District Golfer this month and is shown playing Wynstone in his wheelchair...He says he is at least as fast as any other golfer.

[Paul Daley]

To me there are three models:

The slow US style round

The fast UK links style

The in-between Australian speed.

I will always prefer Tim's preference of the quicker UK model.

The trick is not to be fooled into thinking that all UK golf clubs push things along. Certainly they do on the links, but often not so in the wealthy inland/heathland courses.

One great memory was a game at Portmarnock with a gynaecologist. On the first tee, he pronounced, "I have an important case to attend to" ... and then teed off. After the game - 2 & 1/2 hours later, I reminded him about his important case. He said, "Oh no, If it was urgent, I would have played fast!"

[Paul Richards]

Not in all cases is 3 hours appropriate for a round of golf.

However, it is hardly appropriate for any round to ever
take 5 1/2 or 6 hours either!

We have all been subjected to this pace of play at some
resort, sometime.  If these rounds were made to last from
4 1/4 to 4 3/4 hours, they would at least be bearable!