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Terry Lavin

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Chambers Bay vs. Erin Hills
« on: October 13, 2011, 12:24:23 PM »
I've only played Erin Hills once and was very favorably impressed by the place.  I like the setting, liked the mostly naturalistic approach to creating the course and left absolutely convinced that it would be a terrific site for the Amateur and the Open.  I've never played Chambers Bay, but thought the place looked intriguing, if too quirky, on television.  So who has played them both?  What are the similarities and the differences?  Is either properly described as a links, in any way shape or form?  Which is a better golf course and why?  Which is better suited for major championship golf and why?  Which is more worthy of a cross-country trip to play?
Nobody ever went broke underestimating the intelligence of the American people.  H.L. Mencken

Jud_T

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Re: Chambers Bay vs. Erin Hills
« Reply #1 on: October 13, 2011, 01:36:32 PM »
Erin Hills is built on clay, no?  not to mention nowhere near the sea.  An intriguing course for the pros but certainly not worthy of a cross-country trip IMO.  Haven't played CB, and frankly I'd need some convincing to go there over Bandon in that general neck of the woods...
Golf is a game. We play it. Somewhere along the way we took the fun out of it and charged a premium to be punished.- - Ron Sirak

Mike Wagner

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Re: Chambers Bay vs. Erin Hills
« Reply #2 on: October 13, 2011, 02:20:38 PM »
Two different animals.

CB is much "linksier" than EH.  EH feels linksy from the tee, then it's an aerial course.  The greens are A4, while CB is primarily fescue.  Totally different experience on the greens - EH are as smooth and pure as it gets.

EH has tremendous elasticity - so many holes can play completely different day to day simply by changing tees. 

Wind can also be a huge difference - it can BLOW at EH, while CB is relatively mild.

Which is better?  Hmmm - different experiences - both awesome.

Cross country trip?  Depends what you're looking for.  EH is an incredible 2 or 3 day experience - much more like Bandon after the golf.  CB, not so much for the post golf, but it's outstanding and, in my book, worth it.

Sven Nilsen

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Re: Chambers Bay vs. Erin Hills
« Reply #3 on: October 13, 2011, 02:45:58 PM »
Terry:

I've played them both (and played them within the same two week period last fall).  Here are my thoughts:

What are the similarities and the differences?  

General similarities - Both are links-style courses with generally wide fairways and big greens.  Both have areas of longer grass between holes, with CB having sandy waste areas in parts between the fairways and the gunch.  Both are walkable (albeit harder walks) and have caddy programs.  EH and CB have plenty of quirk and have several holes with fairly severe green contours (although it sounds like some of these contours at CB may be softened).

Differences - CB's site is comparable to the side of a soup bowl (carved out of an old quarry), while EH is on rolling land (think undulating farm land).  The EH site feels much bigger than the site for CB, and its routing has a meandering feel that you don't find at CB.  As mentioned above, CB utilizes the sandy waste areas as a hazard, while EH has smaller well-placed fairway bunkers in places.  EH seems to have been laid on the land, while some of the contours at CB were obviously created.  With a few exceptions, the holes at CB are generally smoother (both in elevation and fairway contours) from tee to green than the holes at EH.

Is either properly described as a links, in any way shape or form?  

Both have firm turf and can have wind (although not as much wind as you'll find on a true seaside links).  Perhaps it was the conditions I had when I played the courses, but I thought that tee balls ran a bit more at EH than at CB.  Both courses give you the opportunity to play running shots in places, but also require aerial shots on other holes.  If I had to pick one of the two as the course where you'll get more movement on the ground, I'd go with EH.

Which is a better golf course and why?  

This is going to come down to personal preference.  I like the feel and play of EH better than CB.  Both are a strong test, but I think EH may be a bit tougher for the pros due to its ability to challenge the player when they are out of position.  See my hole group comparison below.

Which is better suited for major championship golf and why?  

I think they'll both be a good test.  However, they may both be better match play courses than stroke play.  It'll be an interesting exercise to compare the relative successes of the amateur championships to what happens when the pros get there.  If I had to guess, I'd say that CB is more susceptible to being bowled over by a big hitter than EH.  From a spectator standpoint, the vistas created by the land at CB will create great sightlines and allow patrons to take in a fair bit of action from one vantage point.

Which is more worthy of a cross-country trip to play?

You can't go wrong with either.  If you're playing additional golf on this hypothetical trip, EH might win due to the proximity of Lawsonia, Kohler and the quality courses in Milwaukee.  If you're combining CB with a Bandon/Oregon trip, you'll have a bit more driving time, but the quality of golf will be pretty high.

Here's a brief comparison of the two courses by similar hole types (some of these holes may be reclassified depending on how the USGA decides they should play - i.e. the 4th at EH which was played at around 300 yds for a few rounds during the AM):

Par 3's -

CB (3, 9, 15, 17) - I didn't think the par 3's here were the strongest group.  There's a bit of interest around the greens (especially on 9 and 17), but there was not a ton of variety in the types of shots required.  With the exception of 17, I don't see any of these being a tough par for the better players.
EH (6, 9, 13, 16) - A slightly more diverse group than you find at CB (with the long 6th being a good test).  The 9th at EH and the 15 at CB would be the most similar of the 8

I'd give the edge to EH.

Short Par 4's -

CB (2, 10, 12, 16) - 10 and 12 are the standouts here.  Will be fun to see how 12 plays, as I find it hard to imagine many not having a go at it.
EH (2, 11, 12, 15) - If they play 4 at 300, EH wins in a landslide.  Otherwise, its a pretty even race with EH winning by a neck.  The table top green on 2 will present an exercise in control.

EH wins here.

Long Par 4's -

CB (1, 5, 6, 7, 11, 14) - The backbone of the course, with 5, 7 and 14 being the best.  I did not play the tips at CB, but from the up tees all of these holes offered plenty of challenge off of the tee (ie - avoiding going left on 1, setting up a good angle on 6, taking on the corners of 7 and 14).  With 7 being softened to be more receptive on the approach, a bit of the bite around the greens is going to disappear from this group.
EH (3, 4, 5, 8, 10, 17) - The new renditions of 3, 4, 5 and 10 may not be better holes for the paying customer, but they certainly are harder.  The punishment for a miss at EH (especially on the long par 4's) is a bit more severe than at CB.  Where a miss on 7 or 14 at CB may require a recovery from the waste area, the same miss at EH will require a shot from the long grass (if not a lost ball).

I give the edge to CB here due to the variety of the holes and the diagonal nature of a few of the tee balls.

Par 5's -

CB (4, 8, 13, 18) - No real standout hole, and perhaps the hole (8th) that gets the most criticism at CB.  4 and 13 feel fairly similar, and there is nothing about any of these holes that pops out as exceptional.
EH (1, 7, 14, 18) - A love 'em or hate 'em group. 1 will probably be a cake walk for the pros, although 14 and 18 may give them fits.

EH wins in this comparison, but as I said, its really a matter of  personal preference.
« Last Edit: October 13, 2011, 02:54:04 PM by Sven Nilsen »
"As much as we have learned about the history of golf architecture in the last ten plus years, I'm convinced we have only scratched the surface."  A GCA Poster

"There's the golf hole; play it any way you please." Donald Ross

Jud_T

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Chambers Bay vs. Erin Hills
« Reply #4 on: October 13, 2011, 03:04:07 PM »
So you guys are saying that 1 or both courses are Doak 8's (worthy of a special trip to see)?  Can't speak for CB, but I'd say EH is more in the 7 camp, some might even have it lower.  Even a trip that includes Whistling Straights and Lawsonia isn't obvious by this metric IMO.  Personally I'd give Lawsonia an 8, but most would probably have it lower, and I wouldn't rate WS an 8, although many apparently do.
Golf is a game. We play it. Somewhere along the way we took the fun out of it and charged a premium to be punished.- - Ron Sirak

Sven Nilsen

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Chambers Bay vs. Erin Hills
« Reply #5 on: October 13, 2011, 03:09:38 PM »
Jud -

The question asked was which was more worthy of a cross-country trip.  Not sure if I'd travel across the country to play only one round at either.
"As much as we have learned about the history of golf architecture in the last ten plus years, I'm convinced we have only scratched the surface."  A GCA Poster

"There's the golf hole; play it any way you please." Donald Ross

Howard Riefs

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Chambers Bay vs. Erin Hills
« Reply #6 on: October 13, 2011, 03:36:46 PM »
Sven -

Thanks for the comprehensive comparison of both courses.  

Below you note that both are walkable:


General similarities - Both are links-style courses with generally wide fairways and big greens.  Both have areas of longer grass between holes, with CB having sandy waste areas in parts between the fairways and the gunch.  Both are walkable (albeit harder walks) and have caddy programs.  

It's just as important to reference that both facilities are walking-ONLY.  No motorized golf carts are permitted on both EH and CB.  

Additionally, EH pushes it a bit far in even prohibiting pull carts; at CH, pull carts are included with the green fees.

As background....
EH:   http://www.erinhills.com/erin_hills_golf_rates_packages.aspx
CH:   http://www.chambersbaygolf.com/chambersbay.asp?id=232&page=8200



"Golf combines two favorite American pastimes: Taking long walks and hitting things with a stick."  ~P.J. O'Rourke

PThomas

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Chambers Bay vs. Erin Hills
« Reply #7 on: October 13, 2011, 03:40:12 PM »
I played the first two versions of EH and played CB the week after it held the Amateur Champ...talk about firm!  But i was told that the course is greener/softer in June when the Open will be held.....otherwise it might very well be like the recent British Open at Hoylake (and I'm not saying that was a bad thing).

I think CB is definitely the more unique site. There's no way the USGA would have held an Open on the currect version of CB - too much luck of the bounce/wouldn't present a "fair" test in their opinion.  CB is on a pretty, unique site, but will the USGA's changes make it better for the long haul and not just the Open?  Not sure...at least some things need to be changed at CB...like the first where any short or pullled approach ran left at least 50 yards down a hill. I think CB is still having financial difficulties - I will edit that if I am wrong.....wonder what they are going to do with the traffic for the Open, since right now its just one lane in and one lane out

Again, I have not seen the third iteration of EH - there hasnt been that many BIG changes i dont think....The long walk at EH will be interesting/God only knows how long it will take the slowpokes to play the Open there!  I would like to see the 10th without the Biarritz, as I didnt think that green worked on the par 5 that was there before

which is more suited for a major, in terms of only the architecture of the course?  right now EH, because there hasnt been any changes done to CB yet...  if i had to fly across the country to play one, i'd probably pick CB because its a more unique site
199 played, only Augusta National left to play!

Phil McDade

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Re: Chambers Bay vs. Erin Hills
« Reply #8 on: October 13, 2011, 06:59:10 PM »
Jud:  I'm not sure about this for fact, but I would not assume that Erin Hills is on clay. It certainly doesn't feel like it to the feet, and don't forget that the same type of glacial movement that created the Nebraska sand hills also created the kettle moraine.

Dave:

Not so. Erin Hills is on land and soils physically rearranged by glaciers, and their deposits on the land when they retreated. Although it contains some sand, the solils here are more of a mix of sand, gravel and typical loamy and clay soils. See the except from this thread (excerpted itself from Dan Moore's initial GCA thread on EH:

http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,45966.0.html

“Unlike the sand blown dunes of the seaside links, the terrain in the Kettle Moraine region of Wisconsin was formed by the convergence of the Green Bay and Lake Michigan glacial lobes which crunched and scrunched their way over the land leaving in their wake small to large deposits of glacial till and rock strewn ice.  The drumlins, kames, eskers, and kettles formed by these glacial movements are in abundant display throughout the course…The glacial character of the land forming this Glacial Links is one of the clearly distinctive aspects of Erin Hills and makes it unique among golf courses in my experience.”
(http://www.nps.gov/archive/iatr/expanded/history.htm)

The Sand Hills are essentially grassed-over sand dunes, with no real glacial movement that lead to their formation:

http://www.thenebraskasandhills.com/Landscape.html


Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +3/-1
Re: Chambers Bay vs. Erin Hills
« Reply #9 on: October 13, 2011, 07:07:42 PM »
As Phil says, Erin Hills was gravel and sand and loam.  Not much clay at all, that I saw, and I spent a few days wandering around the raw ground.

Adam Clayman

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Re: Chambers Bay vs. Erin Hills
« Reply #10 on: October 14, 2011, 12:18:12 AM »
and don't forget that the same type of glacial movement that created the Nebraska sand hills also created the kettle moraine.

I suspect this can't be correct. If it were, there would be other debris, farther north, with tons and tons of rock.

I'm under the impression there's two theories why the sand hills were created. One, an old sea bottom, and the other, wind, carrying the sand particles over the leeward side of Rockies. The former is more likely, while the later is more romantic. So to speak.
"It's unbelievable how much you don't know about the game you've been playing your whole life." - Mickey Mantle

Sven Nilsen

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Chambers Bay vs. Erin Hills
« Reply #11 on: October 14, 2011, 12:35:29 AM »
Adam:

You might find your answer in this link:  http://digitalcommons.unl.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1483&context=greatplainsresearch&sei-redir=1&referer=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.google.com%2Fsearch%3Fclient%3Dsafari%26rls%3Den%26q%3Dsand%2Bhills%2Bnebraska%2Bgeology%26ie%3DUTF-8%26oe%3DUTF-8#search=%22sand%20hills%20nebraska%20geology%22

The gist of what I can decipher from this article and other comments on the matter is that they were formed by wind blown deposits or by a wall of water that swept over the area after a massive asteroid collision.  Take your pick.

What is extremely interesting to me is the temporary nature of the land.  As the sand base loses its vegetation (for various reasons) the dunes become susceptible to shifting.  You see this often with exposed bunkers.  Makes one think what would happen to the land if a turf program wasn't in effect.
"As much as we have learned about the history of golf architecture in the last ten plus years, I'm convinced we have only scratched the surface."  A GCA Poster

"There's the golf hole; play it any way you please." Donald Ross