[Michael Goldstein]

Chappas you're not wrong.  England has more depth.

But from what I saw Scotland is far more egalitarian which trumps the breadth issue.

[Mark Chaplin]

Goldy I'm not denying that, all I'm saying is few people visit Scotland for inland golf and even less to Ireland, but that's a different issue to the question in hand. Currently 20 mins from Deal on the train teeing off in 90 mins.....happy days!!

[Mark Pearce]

But from what I saw Scotland is far more egalitarian which trumps the breadth issue.

There's some truth in this but it's far from being universally true.  There are many egalitarian golf clubs in England (their density increases proportionately with distance from London.  In North East England, for instance, there are many clubs which are very much open to all, far more so than many of the smartest Scottish clubs.

[JC Jones]

If I may, please accept the following as the American equivalents to what sounds like a wonderful way to spend a day:

Meet in bar for coffee and brandy

Rush to the first tee after an hour drive to get to the only course with an available tee time.

Play 18 holes in a brisk manner be it two ball, foursomes or even fourball.

Suffer through 18 holes of waiting for the group in front of you to clear.

Shower and don jacket and tie or cravat if you are the type.

Wash hands and face in clubhouse bathroom so wife won't smell the beer and cigar (this often tried method amazingly never actually works).

Attend the dining room for a traditional three course luncheon, four if you have space for cheese. Choose a very good red(s) from the wine list if you were victorious or hope your opponent likes cheap claret if you lost as loser pays!

Choke down a serviceable premade sandwich (normally of the ham and cheese variety), with choice of mustard or mayonnaise in packets.

Retire to the bar for coffee and kümmel. Join with others and arrange an afternoon foursomes game to walk off the booze.

Retire to the pro shop to book your tee time for the next Saturday, as you can't wait to do it again, prior to lugging your gear back to the car for the now 2 hour traffic-ridden drive home with three comrades who will be expelling the gases produced by the beer and serviceable sandwiches, preferably with windows down.

What's not to love?

Sven,

I suggest moving to somewhere else.  I think that alleviates several of your problems.

A recent round here in Charlotte involved me driving 15 minutes in no traffic.  Meeting on the range with a coffee.  A sub-4 hour round walking with great guys on a brilliant and fun golf course followed by a great lunch and a 20 minute (with traffic) drive home.

[Kevin Pallier]

I'll give three examples of countries that are not number 1:

1. Australia because every round is too competitive and there are never any gimme's and the average round takes way way way too long..

2. China because golf is too exclusive and .01% of the population play...

3. NZ because, although affordable, the average golf course is treelined and cramped..

Let the debate begin..

Michael

Debate about what ? Your generalisations ?

[Melvyn Morrow]

Country! why only country as the answer is there - its the Kindom of Fife, enough said.

Melvyn

[Tim Martin]

To answer Michael's question fully I'd like to propose the traditional old English clubs (and one or two in Scotland) do golf best:

Meet in bar for coffee and brandy

Play 18 holes in a brisk manner be it two ball, foursomes or even fourball.

Shower and don jacket and tie or cravat if you are the type.

Attend the dining room for a traditional three course luncheon, four if you have space for cheese. Choose a very good red(s) from the wine list if you were victorious or hope your opponent likes cheap claret if you lost as loser pays!

Retire to the bar for coffee and kümmel. Join with others and arrange an afternoon foursomes game to walk off the booze.

What is unique about this golfing day is it is not exclusive like a similar day elsewhere. Rye, Sandwich, Prestwick, Muirfield and a few others allow you to have this member experience at least one or two days a week.

Mark-I guess it`s cultural but the last thing I want to do when I am done with a round of golf is to don a jacket and tie, especially if I am going out to play some more. Seems like a lot of pageantry.

[Mark Chaplin]

Tim fair comment but a guy can be booting it up after 18 holes so if one is showering and changing before lunch a collar and tie isn't too much of a strain.

[Michael Goldstein]

Shirt & tie is cool.. Kevin, I'm apologise will keep it to myself

[Lou_Duran]

Clearly, it's America.  We have big courses, with a lot of forced carries, carts and concrete cart paths, insulated beer bags, beer cart girls, over-the-top service in the halfway house, clubhouse and parking lot, big screen tv's in the card rooms and pro shops, caddies who use range finders.  In short, everything a purist would love!  

I suppose it all depends on what floats your boat.  There are a bunch of relatively affordable clubs throughout the good ol' U.S.A. where I could be perfectly happy.

BTW, many of the nice UK folks consult the rangefinders even on the short approaches.  While there's a lot to be said for English clubs, it seems that theirs is a "my way or the highway" approach.  That's fine, but having and enforcing rigidity for the sake of being able to do it seems a bit what?.... stuffy?  petty?  Ok, maybe charming in the same way that heather is eye candy with teeth?  I do love links golf and showers after the round.

Foursomes and two-balls are fine, but as a mostly exclusive diet?  Well-behaved dogs running around even in the lockeroom is pretty cool.  But is rushing around a 6000 yard course in under three hours hitting every other shot to then retire to the clubhouse for a couple more superior than spending five hours on a "championship" course, playing your own ball, having a few drinks, and otherwise socializing in your foursome?  To each his own I suppose.

Then there is the GCAer who I hear lives half the year in Dornoch and half in Hawaii.  Talk about contrasts!  

[Mark Pearce]

Lou,

That picture you paint is the way all UK golf is in the same way that Augusta National is typical of US golf.  But then you know that, since what you describe doesn't sound much like the golf you palyed at Hankley and Liphook last month.  Other than the fact that some of us do, indeed, use those range finders.......

[Mark Chaplin]

Lou the rigidity I saw at all of the American clubs I've ever played is at the entrance, with a sign saying the clubs name and underneath the words "members only" or "private". Having to wear long socks or wear a blazer at some clubs is IMO a small price to pay for being able to walk through the gate without a member host. There are around ten member only clubs in the UK and nearly all are new and run on the American lines of great service and high fees, I'm thinking Loch Lomond, Renaissance, Archerfield, Queenwood, Wisley and a few others.

Ps it took a bunch of GCA'ers 4.5 hours to play fourball on a 6000yd course in the final round at Liphook, we should have taken a picnic!

[Lou_Duran]

Mark and Mark,

I was just responding in kind to Terry Lavin's tongue-in-cheek post.  I greatly enjoyed my time at both Budas, the courses, the matches, the fellowship.  Hopefully a third one will be in my future.

One of the things that makes golf so compelling for me is the variety of the courses geographically, and the different customs and traditions of the clubs.  As a visitor, I am never more welcomed than in the UK.  Doning a coat and tie is hardly an inconvenience, and I can certainly live wtih wearing long pants if the alternative is bermuda shorts with knee socks (quite a sartorial statement when combined with a blazer!).

Slow play is a real problem in the U.S., and I heard that the Liphook members were grumbling a bit over the pace of the Friday morning round.  Hunting balls in the heather all day long was probably the main culprit, and I suppose that if playing in three hours is the preferred way there, maybe we should have gone out as twosomes for the individual matches.

In general, golf seems to be experienced differently in the UK than it is here.  The thread seeks to identify which "country has the best", a task that's impossible.  I think that as a big, relatively wealthy country, the U.S. has greater variety.  Augusta National is one extreme with maybe Z-Boaz in Fort Worth being representative of the other end.  In between, there are thousands of alternatives.  And as both of you can attest, getting on the majority of the courses, despite the prominently displayed "Members Only" signs, is achievable.   
 

[Mark Pearce]

Lou,

I do really hope that a third (and then a fourth...) BUDA is in the future for you.  Not least as I have pride to reclaim after the dusting down you handed me this year!

I think you put you finger on it when you talked about variety.  There certainly is a difference in the way that golf is experienced in the US and the UK but what both have in common, in my experience, is variety between the experiences available.  IN the UK there are a few (it really isn't very many) places where the 36 hole day Chappers desrcibed can be experienced. I'm very fortunate that I married well enough to enjoy two or three such days a year with my father in law.  If that's one end of the spectrum then some of the working men's golf clubs in NE England are another.  I recently played in an event at Newbiggin, a club in an old pit village on the Northumberland coast.  Muirfield it wasn't but fun it was.  I can't imagine many jackets and ties get seen there.  Public golf (and the dreaded 5 hour round) are yet another facet of the UK game.

Even in my limited experience I have seen similar variety in the US.  Even this year CPC, Lawsonia, Spring Valley (a Mom and Pop, I believe the expression is, in Wisconin) and Sharp Park all provided very, very different experiences.  The only commonality was how welcome I was made.  I do overall prefer the culture over here, I think, but there is much to like, admire and learn from in US golf.  There are aspects of US golf that some courses over here are attempting to mimic.  he first time I ever caw a telephone on the 9th tee to allow a half-way house order to be placed was just over 4 years ago at Olympia Fields, with Terry.  I had absolutely no idea what was going on, never having seen anything similar.  Playing a month ago at Close House in Northumberland I saw the same thing!

[Sean_A]

and I suppose that if playing in three hours is the preferred way there, maybe we should have gone out as twosomes for the individual matches.

Cha ching.  Hopefully going forward this is a lesson well learned.  I was very much against this format at Pennard (and it was very slow), but in hindsight I should have axed the idea and so it is a no go.  GCAers have a hard time keeping up at it is; throw in an recognized playing format (for good reason) and there is no hope of decent speed of play.

Ciao

[Mark Pearce]

and I suppose that if playing in three hours is the preferred way there, maybe we should have gone out as twosomes for the individual matches.

Cha ching.  Hopefully going forward this is a lesson well learned.  I was very much against this format at Pennard (and it was very slow), but in hindsight I should have axed the idea and so it is a no go.  GCAers have a hard time keeping up at it is; throw in an recognized playing format (for good reason) and there is no hope of decent speed of play.

Ciao

Not the thread for it but we really do need to improve pace of play at BUDA.  The 4bbb matches were painfully slow this year.

[Tim Martin]

It seems clear that the majority of posters on this board lust for and seek out new and different golf experiences in a variety of settings. The guys across the pond want to come to the U S and the guys from the U S want to go across the pond. Aside from having so many wonderful courses and venues the U K model of access and affordability is unimaginable in the U S in it`s current golfing culture. When I read of the ease to play so many great courses in the British Isles I pine for a similar experience in the United States.   

[Lou_Duran]

It seems clear that the majority of posters on this board lust for and seek out new and different golf experiences in a variety of settings. The guys across the pond want to come to the U S and the guys from the U S want to go across the pond. Aside from having so many wonderful courses and venues the U K model of access and affordability is unimaginable in the U S in it`s current golfing culture. When I read of the ease to play so many great courses in the British Isles I pine for a similar experience in the United States.  

Tim,

Come to Texas and you will find affordable golf galore- and mostly friendly people too.  I am a member of a "player's club" which for $35/month allows me unlimited practice at three golf courses near north Dallas and golf for a cart fee- < $20- (walking allowed) after 2:30 in the summer (noon during winter months).  Two of the three courses, one designed by Jeff Brauer, compare favorably with many of the second and third tier privates in the area.  The only downside is the dreaded slow play during busy times that seems to plague golf throughout U.S.

Mark P,

Next time, ditch Conrad the night before.  It's hard to right the ship being 2 down on the 3rd tee after rushing from the parking lot, not to say anything about the lingering effects of free-flowing reds until the wee hours.

BTW, it is my hope to spend longer periods of time in the UK when family responsibilities allow it in the future.  I too find the golfing scene there attractive and my breadth of experience lacking.

As to the speed of play, funny how European players on the PGA Tour, including the English, seem to have a bad reputation for being rather deliberate.  Four hours for best balls should be achievable provided that lost balls are minimal, an impossiblity in heather-lined hole corridors or thick natives and gorse on windy link sites.  Perhaps applying special rules such as treating the high stuff as lateral hazards, and the captains setting fast groups out first and somehow requiring the followers to keep up might help.  But if you think the Buda rounds were "painfully slow" this year, bring some sedatives when you participate in the King Putter or the Dixie Cup in the future.  We, me, sometimes talk a game different than we play.  I think it was six hours during the first match of the original KP at Barona Creek.  BarneyF and I, in the first group on the second day, took nearly five.  Dreadful!

[Mark Chaplin]

Lou didn't Mark and Conrad end up in the spa with no bar, eating pulses and seeds for breakfast? That's while we were having a very late one in the hotel with the barmaid in the black lacy thong!

[Mark Pearce]

Mr Gamble smuggled a bottle or two of red back to Colditz, where he, Mr Morrissett, Mr Andriole and I enjoyed it (them) and some fine conversation until some other inmates complained to the guards and we were sent back to solitary confinement.  No black thongs, but a plethora of deeply unattractive bath robes at breakfast.

[Bill_McBride]

and I suppose that if playing in three hours is the preferred way there, maybe we should have gone out as twosomes for the individual matches.

Cha ching.  Hopefully going forward this is a lesson well learned.  I was very much against this format at Pennard (and it was very slow), but in hindsight I should have axed the idea and so it is a no go.  GCAers have a hard time keeping up at it is; throw in an recognized playing format (for good reason) and there is no hope of decent speed of play.

Ciao

Not the thread for it but we really do need to improve pace of play at BUDA.  The 4bbb matches were painfully slow this year.

I loved the tactic you chose for speeding up Drinkin' Joe.    Hit him with a shot as he strolled off the 4th green at Hankley!   

[Sven Nilsen]

Lou didn't Mark and Conrad end up in the spa with no bar, eating pulses and seeds for breakfast? That's while we were having a very late one in the hotel with the barmaid in the black lacy thong!

This sounds like its deserving of a photo tour. 

Edit:  [Just noticed that was my 500th post, seems appropriate.]

[Ulrich Mayring]

Germany in a landslide.

On most of our courses you can step off the 18th any time you want and get something tasty to eat and drink in the clubhouse.

Sorry rest of the world, you may have the better 18, but we beat you at the 19th

Ulrich

[Lou_Duran]

Lou didn't Mark and Conrad end up in the spa with no bar, eating pulses and seeds for breakfast? That's while we were having a very late one in the hotel with the barmaid in the black lacy thong!

I don't understand why some folks were put-off by the official hotel of the Buda.  It wasn't the Ritz, but it had some charm if one looked a bit for it.  I was very impressed with said barmaid- quite a friendly gal- particularly after watching her chug 3/4 of a fifth of vodka in about a minute, only to be later disappointed when she confessed that it was mostly water.  I think it was you guys who turned the lights out about two hours after the official closing time; the visual rewards apparently came well past my bedtime.  Mark and Conrad, well, I heard they did take a good bottle of wine back with them to their swanky hotel, but I purposely avoided any discussion of their subsequent activities.    

[Tony_Muldoon]

Lou that's twice you've mentioned the heather.  Don't take this as a personal comment but it's an "excuse" and as I believe you know, in life some people get it done and others find excuses.

Where a culture of fast play exists then people play fast and keep up with the group in front.  This is true in east anglia where gorse lines the courses, parts of Surrey where Rhododendrons swallow your ball or links where the rough can be fearsome in summer.  I would bet that at Muirfield, where the “Hay” is legendary the time taken to play a round of golf in summer, is within 15 mins of that in winter, where they play foursomes to help combat the cold.  The problem is the kind of course we like to play BUDA on, expect us as guests to follow their culture.


I would add that anyone who’s not visited these shores should be advised that this kind of fast play only applies to about 3% of courses.  In all the others we are seeing the “Bowling alone”  story. IN my experience many play golf not as club member, but with 3 mates in a 4BBB format where 4.5hrs is consider a great time. They set the time for the others. The old members complain about the pace of play and do nothing about it.  They have lost any Club culture they once had.


One thing I like about the Scottish Club I’ve joined is that on entering competitions you inform the secretary what ‘hour’ you’d like to play and then the day before he posts the starting times and you find out who you’re playing with.  I wouldn’t  desire this for every round I play, but its a great way to get to know all the members.

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