CAVENDISH ANYONE? Crazy Groupon Offer...

[Duncan Cheslett]

The world's coming to a sorry state when a a club like Cavendish has to sell itself cheap like this, but here it is;

http://www.groupon.co.uk/deals/manchester/cavendish-golf-club/1130984?nlp=&CID=UK_CRM_1_0_0_285&a=11

I'm guessing that this first time that both Dr Mac and Tom Doak get a mention in a cheesy Groupon write-up!

I'll pick up a voucher for use during the next spell of dryish weather ( ); maybe we could organise a little get-together again...


Vouchers are only available today - Wednesday.

[Adrian_Stiff]

The Club will receive £11 of that £26. Groupon take 50% plus the vat. I will leave the maths to Cavendish but they would appear to have early signs of dementia.

[Sean_A]

Duncan

Can the deal be used on a Sunday?

Ciao

[Adrian_Stiff]

Every day but Saturday Sean, offer lasts until March 2012.

Coffee and biscuits, 18 holes of golf with a buggy £26 per pair.. ie £13 each

[Scott Warren]

That's 11 quid more than they get if the buyers don't come for a game, Adrian.

[Sean_A]

This deal strikes me as a way to promote winter green fees.  Although, I am not sure how a buggy will be used on Cavendish in the winter - they would tear the course up. 

Duncan, so long as we don't have to pick a specific date (meaning we can go with the weather) and we can play on a Sunday, I am in. 

Ciao

[Adrian_Stiff]

That's 11 quid more than they get if the buyers don't come for a game, Adrian.

And that is exactly the way some people see it. They cant see the suicide and they will look at each other in a committee meeting in 6 months time and wonder why they have lost 64 members.
There is no hope when someone see's it as "its ELEVEN MORE POUNDS"

[Scott Warren]

And given the take-up rates of similar deals in Australia, there is a good chance the club will be selling a fair few packages that never get used. Free money.

Your suggestion they'll lose 64 members in six months over a Groupon deal is about as realistic as your invented stats on under 30s with tattoos or your now thrice-mentioned anecdote about being undercut by an architect who didn't offer the client in question anything resembling what you allege.

I just don't understand why you are regularly so dramatic as to abandon reality in the race to try to make a point.

There could be a fine discussion on the impact of these deals to golf clubs if those who participated steered clear of such proclamations as "this will cost them ten members a month".

[Adrian_Stiff]

And given the take-up rates of similar deals in Australia, there is a good chance the club will be selling a fair few packages that never get used. Free money.

Your suggestion they'll lose 64 members in six months over a Groupon deal is about as realistic as your invented stats on under 30s with tattoos or your now thrice-mentioned anecdote about being undercut by an architect who didn't offer the client in question anything resembling what you allege.

I just don't understand why you are regularly so dramatic as to abandon reality in the race to try to make a point.

There could be a fine discussion on the impact of these deals to golf clubs if those who participated steered clear of such proclamations as "this will cost them ten members a month".

Scott you are a complete idiot in some sort of non real life shell with little sense of the economics of golf. It is not worth me even trying to explain.

[Scott Warren]

Perhaps you could start by explaining how this endeavour will cost Cavendish 64 members in six months?

Several clubs -- busy clubs -- I am familiar with including my own have undertaken similar coupon deals and the result has been undeniably positive, even at a price point far lower than the club's standard green fee.

[Sean_A]

Scott

To be fair, I can see where discounting green fees can lead to less vistor income.  Once a discounted fee is offered, many people may take that as "the real green fee" and be reluctant to pay full whack, thus only visiting when the fee is reduced. I know it is impossible to tell how many of these visitors would not visit at all without reduced fees, but it is conceivable that clubs are selling off low fees over full fees.  It doesn't really work that way for me as an example because I tend to use discounted fees as a way to play courses I can't see as a guest or won't pay the full whack.  Swinley and many others with high green fees are examples.  On the other hand, a St Georges Hill is one where I would pay full whack, but likely would wait for winter discounts.  However, for place like Cavendish, its cheap enough that I don't worry about full whack, but I bet many others would.  Everybody likes a good deal and if it can be had with regularity whhy pay full whack?

Ciao

[Ben Jarvis]

Personally, I can't stand these deals. While it's important to have golfers on the course during non-peak times, its equally important you dont cheapen your product and far more important to protect the average green fee a member pays.

Just my two cents worth.

[Scott Warren]

Fair points both, but perhaps worth pointing out they are doing this in the north of England in winter, with the past two winters having been extremely cold and snowy.

[Sean_A]

Scott

Yes of course I realize the weather will naturally limit uptake on these sorts of offers, but a club also has to take into account the wear and tear on the course during a non-growth part of the year and how that effects course conditions for the remainder of the year.  More play tends to equal lower quality conditions.  The trick is to find the balance, but many clubs aren't in a position to seek balance other than trying to balance the books.  I can say as a member of a club,  I would be disappointed if the Comm sold off times at a price I couldn't hope to achieve with my membership.  I am assuming £11 is well below that limit and as a member I wouldn't want my Comm to bother chasing that sort of green fee unless there was a minimum guarantee over the winter period that makes it worth while.  I would also suggest that trying to recruit members to a club when they can play the course so cheaply is a dicey situation.  At the end of the day, its hard for a club to know which direction to take when it is trying to keep dues down, quality up and attract new members - all in an economy with rising inflation and unemployment.  

I have always liked the winter fee and the county card deals, but I can well understand how it can help create a downward spiral at clubs.  I am glad my club doesn't do winter deals though.  Its enough we allow visitor play on the weekend (which in a way is a deal in and of itself) and have excellent dormie house deals.  

As a side idea, Little Aston does an unusual winter deal.  A 4ball costs I think £200 which includes a very good breakfast.  The winner of your 4ball is invited (free of charge) to play in that month's final.  The winner of that month's final is then invited to a grand final - free of charge.  Its an engenious way to bring in extra cash to a club like LA which has probably less than 300 members - many of which won't play much in the winter. I wouldn't be surprised if they bring in at least £50,000 in green fees with this deal (granted LA has a strong rep in The Midlands) - which to me is worthwhile while bringing in £5000 is debateable.  

Ciao

[Mark Chaplin]

Adrian let's not fall into the trap of using personal insults, I was hoping such behaviour was limited to a few small minded souls on the other side of the pond.

The fee being charged is less than the weekly cost of full membership, that cannot be good business.

[Mark Pearce]

The shame of this is that Adrian has a very interesting and worthwhile insight on this question.  Whilst I don't entirely agree with him ( it's a debate we have visited before and one on which he is very definitely worth listening to.  He certainly helped me change my initial position on deals like this.  It shouldn't have to turn into a Merion thread just because people don't agree.

[Ben Stephens]

Adrian let's not fall into the trap of using personal insults, I was hoping such behaviour was limited to a few small minded souls on the other side of the pond.

The fee being charged is less than the weekly cost of full membership, that cannot be good business.

Chappers et al,

I understand where Adrian is coming from and this topic of golf course economics has come up a number of times on different threads. Adrian is one of those people has really good understanding of how a golf course/club is run and the frustration sometimes for Adrian is that Scott takes it a bit too far which is a journalistic trait albeit his reply which others views that could have been done in a better manner but he is trying to get to the point. Both are good guys to me outside of this forum and would help any GCAer. 

The Players Club is a hugely successful golf complex thanks to Adrian's understanding of running a golf business at profit under the current economic climate. The profit has been reduced in the last few years due to increasing costs of food, wages, fuel, greenkeeping equipment etc.

This deal initially demeans Cavendish as one of those hidden gems and it makes you question whether there are financial problems at the club due to a number of factors - location, rising costs, ageing membership etc or Group On have given the club some upfront Cash incentive to persuade them to join the scheme. We will probably never know the full facts and there could be an increase in the number of buggy incidents due to the steepness of the course and wetness of it (is the club protected from this cos they could be liable)

If I was a member I would probably be cheesed off with this.

Cheers
Ben

[Adrian_Stiff]

Perhaps you could start by explaining how this endeavour will cost Cavendish 64 members in six months?

Several clubs -- busy clubs -- I am familiar with including my own have undertaken similar coupon deals and the result has been undeniably positive, even at a price point far lower than the club's standard green fee.

Groupons are great for the consumer, I suspect Cavendish will sell 200 of these. The Club, Cavendish will receive £11 which they have to pay £2 Vat on thus netting £9 for the two ball from which they will supply £2 worth of tea and biscuit and around £3 buggy fuel/ wear, giving them a nett result of £2 per person. They might buy a lunch and have a beer afterwards which might give a further £2 profit. The economics of golf is fairly simple, you have a cost to run the course for a year say £600,000. You do 30,000 rounds, each round must nett you £20 to square the position, if you let rounds go at less than £20 you will enter death spiral. Golfers are this scenario, members or visitors, if you are a member of a club you should pay less than a visitor, you should create an attractive proposition that membership is value at around 20 -30 times the price of your green fee so a £30-£35 green fee equates to say £800 per year, that offers value to the once a week player. If you offer value in cheap 2-4-1s, county cards, groupons and other schemes the value balance tilts away from membership. These schemes encourage golfers to leave their golf clubs as better value golfing is via these routes. I am not against Groupon in fact I am trialing a Groupon Scheme myself but itinvolves getting new begginners into the game with offers for trial lessons and memberships.
Scott - 64 members is a figure of speech. I apologise for my insult but I do feel you had a dig at me first. The tattoo numbers were what I got from google and not random, you also keep bringing it up about my loss of a job to someone you know, I have never mentioned his name on here as far as I can remember and I dont blame him either, he wants to get a foothold in the industry, I am a bit pissed off that I lost it to price or thats what the client told me, I was asked to drop my price and would not. I think the problem we have is I write as I would talk and you being a journalist pick up on the anyalsis and grammar of each word.

[Mark Pearce]

Adrian (or anyone else ITB), do you have any idea how many of these coupons are sold and never redeemed?

[Adrian_Stiff]

Adrian (or anyone else ITB), do you have any idea how many of these coupons are sold and never redeemed?

Mark - I am in a trial at the moment, I can give the exact details and findings in about another 6 weeks, but the one I did we sold about 106 and I think 103 got redeemed. Ours was £49. I can only assume that people did not want to lose £49, if it was lower I would imagine more would not get redeemed. Originaly about 112 were sold but I think there is a 7 day cool off for the customer. When the trial ends I will share on this board. Groupon can be usefull for golf clubs and probably other business's. IMO gifting your resturant for 4 for £29 (which you get say £12) is not good since I think primarily your customers use you once then move to the next bargain groupon deal. There are so many bargain weekend breaks to try in every city in the world, it just seems that full price will be a thing of the past. The argument is that you will get repeat business.

[Mark Chaplin]

Adrian a good insight, you are certainly right on restaurants I wait for the discounts to come around on Toptable so never pay full whack. The only discount that really stacks up is the county card, you only get the discount if your club participates so it becomes a member benefit. I cannot see anyway the groupon deal works for the course.

[Bill_McBride]

I hope this is a one off for Cavendish, with the objective of introducing new clientele to the course and perhaps getting some new members.  I don't think anyone would ever confuse that price with the normal price.

[Tony_Muldoon]

Todays course report


Wednesday 12th October 2011

Course very wet. Holes 1-8 and 14-18 are open. Holes 5,8,14,15 and 16 on temporary greens.

[Michael Whitaker]

Guys... most of you seem very shortsighted as to the benefits a one-off promotion like this can produce. Many clubs would love to have 100-200 golfers visit their club and experience their course in a cordial "open house" situation where the benefits of joining could be presented. Hopefully, Cavendish and other courses that offer these Groupon deals use the opportunity wisely by having the secretary, professional, or a membership committee member greet the "guests" and provide them information on the club as they enjoy their coffee and biscuit... perhaps even with a one-time-only special offer for membership.

The golfing "pie" is not growing, therefore, the only way clubs can attract new members is to steal them from other clubs or convince non-attached golfers to join. I see nothing wrong with running an off-season promotion to encourage new traffic if its purpose is sound and made known to the membership in advance.

Couponing just for the sake of couponing or to only boost short term revenue is worthless. However, if it is part of an overall strategic marketing plan it can prove very successful.

[Adrian_Stiff]

Michael I totally agree that this sort of marketting can be positive. I think in Cavendish's case they just have made a big mistake and they are not alone, other clubs have done similar. In this case a big mistake is allowing the coupon to extend to March 31st, thats 5 and a half months, I think they will sell a lot of these vouchers but in real terms Groupon will earn money and they not only will not make to much from this probably their winter take will be down, 10 groupons probably equal 1 normal winter green fee. The buggy inclusion seems bizzare, perhaps even another mistake, Cavendish does not paths does it? What if its wet, not many UK courses can have buggies in the wintertime unless pathed, there could be lots of damage.
If this promotion was concentrated to a single day, it does make sense, as you quite rightly say if the pro, secretary and committee members were there to greet welcome and sell the benifits of the club, they might get some new members, our trial Groupon involves giving a membership for a trial period, the proof for me if its good or bad will be seen soon as the offer is coming to the end. You are 100% correct when you talk about golfers and clubs stealing from other clubs, ofcourse what we need is new blood into the game and a welcoming for novice and new golfers, a trial lesson of 4 1 hour sessions with free clubs and a coffee afterwards can look great value for £19, in reality you could do a group of 12, that might give the pro an income of £20 per hour which is not crap money, the clubs cost nothing to hire really, the club can sport the coffee and the pro can talk about the benifits of golf and joining the club.
Couponing to just sell a green fee makes no sense to me, you lower your barriers to the nasty virus and risk getting infected.