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JNC Lyon

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Re: Country Club of Buffalo Restoration
« Reply #25 on: October 10, 2011, 02:52:02 PM »
Does anyone else think this hole (#6) is reminiscent of #2 at Royal Dornoch?

Yes, they definitely have their similarities, although I think there is less margin for error (if that's even possible) on CC of Buffalo's 6th.
"That's why Oscar can't see that!" - Philip E. "Timmy" Thomas

Mark McKeever

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Re: Country Club of Buffalo Restoration
« Reply #26 on: October 10, 2011, 04:45:18 PM »
Tim,

Are there any holes like that at Yale?

6 at CC of Buffalo is definitely one of the coolest par threes I've ever played.  Obviously, the quarry makes for a dramatic setting, but the hole's biggest hazard is GRAVITY.  Very cool.


John,

Be excited....

Mark
Best MGA showers - Bayonne

"Dude, he's a total d***"

Ronald Montesano

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Re: Country Club of Buffalo Restoration
« Reply #27 on: October 10, 2011, 08:47:42 PM »
Like I said...8 or 9 iron to the front at CCB~6...if you go pin hunting, you are on your own, cowboy.
Coming in 2024
~Elmira Country Club
~Soaring Eagles
~Bonavista
~Indian Hills
~Maybe some more!!

Ian Andrew

Re: Country Club of Buffalo Restoration
« Reply #28 on: October 10, 2011, 09:18:24 PM »
Tree removal at CCB has been exceptional.
I played there 17 years ago and it was claustrophobic.

Ronald Montesano

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Country Club of Buffalo Restoration
« Reply #29 on: October 10, 2011, 10:19:16 PM »
My first exposure to the course was in Fall of 1981 or 1982.  The hole that you see above was surrounded by trees on both laterals. The only reason that there weren't more trees beyond is that there is more golf course there. Tree removal began in the mid-first-new-millenium-decade. Mother Nature was clearly not happy with the pace of the removal, so she stepped in and b-slapped a bunch more trees out.

Why are there fir or pine trees anywhere on golf courses in the northeast? What a nightmare of a tree...destroys the soil and eliminates the punch recovery.
Coming in 2024
~Elmira Country Club
~Soaring Eagles
~Bonavista
~Indian Hills
~Maybe some more!!

michael damico

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Re: Country Club of Buffalo Restoration
« Reply #30 on: October 11, 2011, 08:03:09 AM »
Ron,

I think that might be any tree that is not properly maintained...pines and firs seemed to me to be a little less maintenance than say an oak or maple (once you trim the low lying branches), not to mention the fact that I could hit a recovery shot off of needles, not so much the same with acorns.
"without deviation from the norm, progress is not possible"
                                                                -fz

Michael Wharton-Palmer

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Re: Country Club of Buffalo Restoration
« Reply #31 on: October 11, 2011, 09:03:50 AM »
very cool looking hole...certainly caught my full attention

Will Lozier

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Re: Country Club of Buffalo Restoration
« Reply #32 on: October 11, 2011, 10:59:25 AM »

John, Yale doesn't need any eruptions. In fact, this hole would be the fifth-best par three at Yale (although I do believe it to be world class) simply because it wouldn't fit the Raynor system.


Ron, 

I would argue that this beauty would fit in quite well in terms of Raynor's look but maybe not system - but if perhaps as a fifth non-template par-3.  I think he would have come up with nearly an identical hole!  I would also argue that this would be easily the third best short hole at Yale.

Cheers

Ian Andrew

Re: Country Club of Buffalo Restoration
« Reply #33 on: October 11, 2011, 05:28:08 PM »
Ron, 

I would argue that this beauty would fit in quite well in terms of Raynor's look but maybe not system - but if perhaps as a fifth non-template par-3.  I think he would have come up with nearly an identical hole!  I would also argue that this would be easily the third best short hole at Yale.

Cheers

Played both?
I have an disagree. The only hole that is better is the 9th. This is a stunningly good hole.

For those who compare it to #2 at Royal Dornoch - other than the volcano nature - the setting and elevation changes are very different.
The 6th at CCB is a much bigger drop.

Will Lozier

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Re: Country Club of Buffalo Restoration
« Reply #34 on: October 11, 2011, 09:34:07 PM »
Ian,

I have not played CCB but have great fondness for #9 & #13 (Yale's Biarritz & Redan) despite the lack of firm conditions and the horrific cart path on #13!

Cheers

Ronald Montesano

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Country Club of Buffalo Restoration
« Reply #35 on: October 11, 2011, 10:18:26 PM »
Let's see-At Yale, #5 is Short, #9 is Biarritz, #13 is Redan and #15 is Eden...the one that stands out as not being so attractive is #15...I'd have to play it more than once to catch its charm. You are correct, Ian. #6 at CCB is so unique and inimitable (un-templateable?) that it would certainly rank in the top four at Yale and possibly in the top two (better than #5, equal to #13).
« Last Edit: October 12, 2011, 07:36:36 PM by Ronald Montesano »
Coming in 2024
~Elmira Country Club
~Soaring Eagles
~Bonavista
~Indian Hills
~Maybe some more!!

Will Lozier

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Re: Country Club of Buffalo Restoration
« Reply #36 on: October 12, 2011, 01:15:15 AM »

John, Yale doesn't need any eruptions. In fact, this hole would be the fifth-best par three at Yale (although I do believe it to be world class) simply because it wouldn't fit the Raynor system.

Let's see-At Yale, #5 is Short, #9 is Biarritz, #13 is Redan and #15 is Eden...the one that stands out as not being so attractive is #15...I'd have to play it more than once to catch its charm. You are correct, Ian. #6 at CCB is so unique and inimitable (un-templateable?) that it would certainly rank in the top four at Yale and possible in the top two (better than #5, equal to #13).


Ron, have you changed your mind?

Ronald Montesano

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Re: Country Club of Buffalo Restoration
« Reply #37 on: October 12, 2011, 07:37:43 PM »
Will...I HAVE changed my mind...didn't want to be too much of a homer, but I figure if SR had seen that quarry amid Yale's terrain, he would have said F-This and gone for a non-template par three.
Coming in 2024
~Elmira Country Club
~Soaring Eagles
~Bonavista
~Indian Hills
~Maybe some more!!

Jim_Kennedy

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Re: Country Club of Buffalo Restoration
« Reply #38 on: October 13, 2011, 09:49:42 AM »
From an earlier thread:

Country Club of Buffalo, Williamsville, N.Y.
By Ron Whitten


One of the many interesting aspects of Donald Ross is that the man designed so many golf courses in so many different locations over such a long period of time, a career in excess of 45 years, that we rarely need to speculate what Ross might have done on the kind of sites we see courses built upon today. If we look hard enough, we can usually find a course where Ross dealt with a similar terrain.

So if you wonder how Donald Ross might have handled a design in an abandoned quarry, wonder no longer. He did such a course, the Country Club of Buffalo, back in the mid-1920s.

The main feature of Country Club of Buffalo is the old Young Quarry, from which limestone was excavated in the 19th Century and used on the exteriors of many of Buffalo's most prominent early buildings. Shaped like the letter C, it wasn't an enormously large quarry, and the layout Ross prepared has it intersecting just half a dozen holes. But it is a typical masterful Ross routing, changing direction on nearly every hole, bringing the quarry into play on both nines, at many different angles.

The course begins casually on the relatively flat property, with three well-bunkered but not overly difficult par 4s followed by the 501-yard par 5 fourth that, in this age, isn't much more than a par 4 for good players. The quarry lurks along the right edge of the 306-yard fifth, but is really only a hazard at that point for those who might shank an approach shot.

Standing on the tee of the 173-yard sixth, the main section of the quarry unfolds in dramatic fashion. From the series of tees positioned along the south rim, the sixth plays into the bowl-shaped pit to what arguably could be termed an island green, a green perched well above the quarry floor and totally surrounded by steep grass slopes imbedded with a couple of bunkers. The sixth green was presumably built on an ancient rock outcropping that even miners could not chip away. The huge green, almost at the same elevation as the tee, is wide and deep, positioned at a diagonal, with separate levels.

The sixth at the Country Club of Buffalo must be seen to be believed. It could well be the most outrageous par 3 that Donald Ross ever conceived. Many call it "the volcano hole," but it reminds me more of what the deck of the Titanic must surely have looked like minutes after its fatal brush with an iceberg. The green is listing badly to the southeast. It's canted, slanted and slippery. It's also big, much bigger than shown on Ross's original plan, obviously adjusted in the field during construction, probably to fit the outcropping, but by whom? Ross himself, or maybe an enterprising associate? We’ll never know for sure. Regardless of whose idea it was, the sixth is an amazing, unforgettable hole.

It must be noted that this "island green" is not surrounded by a barren rock floor. Even in Ross's day (as evidenced by early photographs), the floor of the quarry was covered with grass. (Did Ross have topsoil hauled in for this purpose? Again, we'll likely never know.) The only exposed rocks, then and now, are the vertical quarry walls.

The par-4 seventh plays up out of the quarry and past another pit on the right, and the front nine concludes not at the clubhouse but close enough. (Youngs Road bisects the property, with only the first and 18th on the clubhouse side of the street. Everything else is east of what is now a very busy road.)

Another vein of the quarry is crossed on the 417-yard 11th, where the plateau fairway stops abruptly at the edge of the quarry (effectively throttling back big hitters), then begins down below, edging 75 yards of curving rock wall on the right before rising out again, to the green back above. Then comes the 187-yard 12th, from high back tees on the rim, over a narrow neck of old quarry containing a pit lake, to a green on the far rim, its front flank a steep grassy decline back into the pit, its sides sloping into deep bunkers. This, to me, is the "volcano hole."

The 545-yard 13th, the longest hole on the course, is a boomerang down through the bowels of the bowl to a shallow green perched above the fairway atop a high wall. If the final four holes don't involve such dramatic elevation changes, they are still sternly bunkered and quite good, particularly the dogleg-right 425-yard 18th, uphill all the way to a green on a deliberate shelf, the right side dropping abruptly off, the left side nestled at the base of an escarpment-turned-rock garden, with a beautiful brick-and-stone clubhouse (yes, limestone) atop the escarpment, positioned off to the side instead of directly behind the green.

The Country Club of Buffalo is another of those marvelous Ross layouts that's only recently been rediscovered, thanks in part to sympathetic bunker restoration some years back by architect Craig Schreiner. Robert Trent Jones, who grew up in nearby Rochester, once called it one of the best courses he’d ever played. In the 1960s, Golf Digest listed it among America's 200 Toughest. But at just 6,620 yards, par 70, it's never been considered true championship stuff, mainly, I suspect, because of its limited-season location. The course hosted the 1931 Women’s Amateur and the 1950 Curtis Cup, but that's it nationally, and with such a busy street running through the course, it’s hard to imagine any sort of major spectator event being conducted there anymore.

Contrary to John Steinbreder's book, Golf Courses of the U.S. Open, the Ross course did not host a U.S. Open. The club did host the 1912 Open, but that was at its former location closer to town, at a course now known as Grover Cleveland Municipal. Back then, the U.S. Open was conducted in August, so there was plenty of time to establish good turf following a typical harsh Buffalo winter.

When it comes to early-American "quarry courses," I like it better than the far more famous Merion East. It may lack Merion's tournament history, but Buffalo's quarry holes are more intriguing, and it has four times as many of them.
"I never beat a well man in my life" - Harry Vardon

Ronald Montesano

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Country Club of Buffalo Restoration
« Reply #39 on: October 13, 2011, 11:37:16 AM »
He must know Merion like I know CCB...When I saw East at the Walker Cup two years ago, the 17th in person BLEW me away...the drop to the green, the quarry gnarl and that incredible green (where Brendan Gielow almost holed the most incredible pitch, more demanding than Watson at Pebble's 17th.) Perhaps familiarity breeds something less than contempt, perhaps it dulls the senses to the treasure at hand.
Coming in 2024
~Elmira Country Club
~Soaring Eagles
~Bonavista
~Indian Hills
~Maybe some more!!

JNC Lyon

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Re: Country Club of Buffalo Restoration
« Reply #40 on: October 13, 2011, 09:07:48 PM »
Well, CC of Buffalo is no Merion.  The quarry holes may be more exciting (the 6th is better than any of the threes at the East Course), but the non-quarry holes at CCB are very pedestrian in spots.  I love holes like the short fours at 5 and 10, the wild gully in the green at 14, the reverse redan 16th, and the aforementioned finishing hole.  However, several of the flat holes are a drag, weak supporters for the quarry all-stars.  A restoration that livens up the flat holes will make CCB infinitely better, and it will be a standout layout.
"That's why Oscar can't see that!" - Philip E. "Timmy" Thomas

Ronald Montesano

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Re: Country Club of Buffalo Restoration
« Reply #41 on: November 25, 2011, 09:11:58 AM »
Thanks to Mike V. at BlueGolf for putting this course tour together: http://course.bluegolf.com/bluegolf/course9/course/ccbuffalo/index.htm

When I look at it from above, I try to imagine which bunkers are RTJ UNO additions and which were Ross originals. If you look at the open space between #6 (the volcano) green and #7 tee, I've heard that a tip tee will be benched into the slope, creating a blind tee ball. #6 green sits in the valley of the quarry, then you ascend to current #7 tee.
Coming in 2024
~Elmira Country Club
~Soaring Eagles
~Bonavista
~Indian Hills
~Maybe some more!!

Jay Flemma

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Re: Country Club of Buffalo Restoration
« Reply #42 on: November 25, 2011, 10:32:42 AM »
What could anyone do to improve this hole?  



WOW!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

With respect - just to pose the question - tell me why this isn't a little overdone or a bit garish.

If a modern architect built this now, would we all be ooohing and aaahing?  

How big is that green?  Is there a picture of the green itself so we can get some idea of how big it is.  Someone said it's 170 yards...from which tees?
« Last Edit: November 25, 2011, 10:38:32 AM by Jay Flemma »
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Mike Viscusi

Re: Country Club of Buffalo Restoration
« Reply #43 on: November 25, 2011, 01:29:47 PM »
Jay, I tend to agree.  While it's certainly an awesome photo and it's one of the most unique par 3's I have ever seen it seems a little odd looking and unnatural (although I'm not suggesting the land wasn't like that when he got there). Is this the most unusual par 3 Ross ever created? I does seem like it would be fun to play though.

The green is roughly 48 yards deep and about 18 yards wide.  170 yards appears to be from the extreme tips to the center of the green.

Jim_Kennedy

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Re: Country Club of Buffalo Restoration
« Reply #44 on: November 25, 2011, 01:47:46 PM »
If anything, it's the lighting and high contrast of the photo make it look 'overdone'. Another view from the club's website:



Earlier views, this thread:




The green is approx. 18x48 yds. at its widest and longest dimensions w/a sq.footage of 6,500.
The four tees range from 120/170yds.(approx.) to the middle of the green. The green sits at an angle to the tee boxes, with the shortest getting the widest view of the green and the longest tee getting a slightly more narrow one.

I don't think the vast majority of modern day architects would pass this site up if they could fit it into their routing.      
« Last Edit: November 25, 2011, 01:50:23 PM by Jim_Kennedy »
"I never beat a well man in my life" - Harry Vardon

Ronald Montesano

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Re: Country Club of Buffalo Restoration
« Reply #45 on: November 25, 2011, 08:55:15 PM »
The more I look at "the golden photo," the thinner the green looks (liposuction?) when compared to what you really face. Overdone? I will admit that the photo may have been retouched. The green site is in the depth of a portion of a limestone quarry, is absolutely perfect and serves to meld the genteel nature of a "club" with the wild origins of the limestone industry.

All that is needed to reach the front of the green, from any tee, is 8-iron at most. The hole certainly has a penal quality, when one aims at a center or back flag. As a former head pro one said, every hole location on every green at CCB is accessible from the center of the green.

Given that the golden photo might be the only view that most on GCA have of the hole, let me assure you that it is, in no way, shape or form, garish. It is not overdone. It is a raw force of nature that one could play over and over from around the rim and never tire of its subtleties. At 200 yards, it would be unfair. At 167 or less, it is not.

For a better view of the green size in relation to its surroundings, go here (http://course.bluegolf.com/bluegolf/course/course/ccbuffalo/aerial.htm) and click "6."
Coming in 2024
~Elmira Country Club
~Soaring Eagles
~Bonavista
~Indian Hills
~Maybe some more!!

Matt Kardash

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Re: Country Club of Buffalo Restoration
« Reply #46 on: November 25, 2011, 10:13:16 PM »
Yeah, that par 3 is pretty damn awesome. I couldn't give any less of a shit if it doesn't look natural. It looks straight up cool. I would love trying to hit that green...and probably have even more fun trying to play recovery shots from down below.
the interviewer asked beck how he felt "being the bob dylan of the 90's" and beck quitely responded "i actually feel more like the bon jovi of the 60's"

Tiger_Bernhardt

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Re: Country Club of Buffalo Restoration
« Reply #47 on: November 26, 2011, 10:40:31 PM »
How long is the hole?

Will Lozier

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Re: Country Club of Buffalo Restoration
« Reply #48 on: November 27, 2011, 12:09:16 AM »

With respect - just to pose the question - tell me why this isn't a little overdone or a bit garish.

What is overdone about the hole (photo)?  If by garish you mean too much color...a bit of brown would indicate thoughtful irrigation, especially in areas that should require minimal maintenance.  If you mean showy or elaborate...elaborate.  If you mean quirky...you'll have to decide that.

If a modern architect built this now, would we all be ooohing and aaahing?

Yes.

« Last Edit: December 04, 2011, 08:38:42 AM by Will Lozier »

Ronald Montesano

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Re: Country Club of Buffalo Restoration
« Reply #49 on: November 27, 2011, 12:35:35 AM »
Tiger...it maxes at 167 and moves leftward around the rim to minimize at about 120. The previous hole is to the right of the tee, but one could play it from over there, if one were a member and had such access.

Matt K....the recovery shots are most interesting. I tell our younger golfers that a shot played short of the green, between the fronting bunkers, will leave a chip up the fall line and a run at par and certain bogey. From either flank, you have to flop it up there, as Dave Marr once remarked, like a butterfly with sore feet.

Jim Kennedy's third photo shows the green from the back, and gives a hint to the terraced nature of the side and rear portions. They are terraced for practical (help the members get down without breaking their necks) and strategic (rather than always having a from-the- bottom recovery, many balls that miss the target stop halfway down) reasons.
Coming in 2024
~Elmira Country Club
~Soaring Eagles
~Bonavista
~Indian Hills
~Maybe some more!!