[Don_Mahaffey]

Mac,
Pay special attention to what is going on at your home away from home and you'll learn a ton about what goes into creating a very good golf course.

Brian Slawnick is in the middle of graduate level course in mowing lines, feature shaping, and a few other subjects as well. Studying TD’s routing may be of interest as well.  

[Mike_Young]

Mac,
Study the classics but appreciate the ordinary around the area.  IMO building architects have always studied the great one but most make their living with some very good buildings or homes that incorporate much of the classics.  Check out Warm Springs near Callaway Gardens, Washington Country club in Washington , Ga.  , Camden golf Club, North Fulton GC, Dalton CC, Dublin CC, the closed Radium springs in albany....there's a lot of pretty neat stuff in the area....

[Sean_A]

Mike

Admittedly, my eyes aren't what they once were, but I often don't see much difference between the top ranked courses and a number of the also rans.  Leaving out the quality of the terrain both in movement and turf, it strikes me that the same elements are present in the greats and goods of the world.  I am coming to believe more and more that a sense of grandeur often exists at the venerated courses which sends those places up a notch or two.  Of course, it can be hard to tell if the sense of grandeur is architectural/maintenance or something else which most people come to respect - a general place of being in the game - in other words - fame.  I am finding it very interesting as I get to know more and more Colt courses.  Usually, the bones of these places aren't really much different in terms of quality.

Ciao   

[Tom_Doak]

Mike

Admittedly, my eyes aren't what they once were, but I often don't see much difference between the top ranked courses and a number of the also rans.  Leaving out the quality of the terrain both in movement and turf, it strikes me that the same elements are present in the greats and goods of the world.  I am coming to believe more and more that a sense of grandeur often exists at the venerated courses which sends those places up a notch or two.  Of course, it can be hard to tell if the sense of grandeur is architectural/maintenance or something else which most people come to respect - a general place of being in the game - in other words - fame.  I am finding it very interesting as I get to know more and more Colt courses.  Usually, the bones of these places aren't really much different in terms of quality.

Ciao   

Sean:

It's interesting that you don't think that "sense of grandeur" is inherent to the property or to the design, but instead of "fame".

I've certainly felt it at many courses that weren't famous -- or at least, weren't famous when I first saw them.  It also implies that a new course can't have it, which I think is certainly not true.  There are a bunch of newer courses that have it ... and a lot more that are trying to have it.

[Sean_A]

Mike

Admittedly, my eyes aren't what they once were, but I often don't see much difference between the top ranked courses and a number of the also rans.  Leaving out the quality of the terrain both in movement and turf, it strikes me that the same elements are present in the greats and goods of the world.  I am coming to believe more and more that a sense of grandeur often exists at the venerated courses which sends those places up a notch or two.  Of course, it can be hard to tell if the sense of grandeur is architectural/maintenance or something else which most people come to respect - a general place of being in the game - in other words - fame.  I am finding it very interesting as I get to know more and more Colt courses.  Usually, the bones of these places aren't really much different in terms of quality.

Ciao   

Sean:

It's interesting that you don't think that "sense of grandeur" is inherent to the property or to the design, but instead of "fame".

I've certainly felt it at many courses that weren't famous -- or at least, weren't famous when I first saw them.  It also implies that a new course can't have it, which I think is certainly not true.  There are a bunch of newer courses that have it ... and a lot more that are trying to have it.

Tom

I said it can be hard to tell where the sense of grandeur comes from.  In the case of the many great heathand courses it is a combination of the charming club and charming property - not necessarily the design.  In other words, there are plenty of other just as well laid out courses, but being called Swinley Forest and having heather about the bunkers goes a long way to explain why people say its better than say Stoneham.  In the case of the Open rota courses I believe the fame aspect plays a much bigger role, but then people will naturally place a different onus the club in expecting a "championship" design without much thought as to whether the "champisonship" aspect actually adds anything to the quality of the design.  "It has to be great because its Hoylake" type of thinking, but is it really any better than Formby?  I don't think so, in fact I don't think Hoylake is ALL that much better than Wallasey and a major reason for me picking Hoylake is because of its better turf - again, not an issue which is actually design related.

Ciao 

[Ben Sims]

Mac,

Inherent to the process is honesty.  I'm finding this more and more important as I see and learn new things.  There are many examples of how a relatively intelligent person copped out to a "Big World" theory.  But it's not all gravy, and by admitting where something isn't quite right or didn't realize a potential that it had, you are critically assessing work and learning something in the process.

Also, don't be afraid of being weird.  Do whatever it takes to inject experience (notice I said experience and not knowledge) into your brain.  It's one thing to regurgitate an architecture book or agree with what someone else said, it's quite another to put into context how a golf course affected you during and after the round.  It's even harder to elaborate the what the why's and how's of the construction of the course did to create those feelings.  Be weird enough to get into that stuff and not be bashful about its importance to you. 

Go to a site and work a bit, you'll learn a lot.  Poke around and try to find some funding for a turf certificate from UGA or Penn State.  You'll get a huge takeaway from those programs.  Play less golf--as weird as that sounds.  I'm merely okay at looking at a golf course when I've got my own ball and a bunch of other folks to interact with.  The best I ever got to know Wolf Point was watching my wife react to its bumps and rolls and explaining the concepts of surface drainage to her.

Above all, never act like you know enough. 

[Mac Plumart]

Just checking in for a quick second at work, so I can't put a full response out (but you know I will later )...

Don...Frankly, I have been amazed at what is happening at Dismal.  Both with the #1 course and the coming alive of #2.  This will no doubt prove to be an invaluable education...as was my time spent seeing Rivermont get "tweaked".  One thing that I am having trouble comprehending with RGD's work at Dismal #2 is, how would this process be different if the land wasn't so perfect for golf.  The fact that Tom and his team found these holes that were essentially there from the start and linked them together so seemlessly is a testament to his routing ability and eye for golf holes...but the fact that the holes were there already says something about the land as well (I would assume).  Like I said, I need to see a few more courses built from the ground up.

Sean/Tom...I think I hear you.  I've seen some 2nd tier courses that I've thought were every bit as "good" as some top tier courses, but they don't have the legend or lore associated with them.  It is my opinion that this plays a HUGE role in the rankings.  Like I said, that is my opinion and it may be totally wrong...but for now that is my story and I'm sticking to it!!  

[Simon Holt]

I have been in the US for 2 weeks now and played in PA, NJ, OH and NY.  It has made me appreciate both the high standard of parkland golf in the US and how lucky I am with the courses back in Scotland.  

Sometimes you need to visit places with reputations to realise that they aren't actually all that.  Fortunately most on this past trip were more than equal to my expectations.  

I was blessed to play 36 at National (PM round off the Walker Cup tees!) but one of the guys in our group really didn't get it.  He loves long courses and didn't appreciate the template hole aspect.  He wondered why he would travel over an ocean to play somewhere that was trying- and failing in his mind- to be what we have at home.

Now National is one of my favourite courses in the world but this guy didn't get it.  Having played there before I purposely hadn't built it up to him and he didn't really know anything about the club.  By the end of the week everyone else that we played with on Long Island was blown away by the story of our day. His opinion of the place started to change and that was purely down to others saying how lucky he was to play there and not his pure thoughts of the course itself.

I think this highlights the very small percentage of the golfing population that look at the courses for their architectural merit.

I will underline how friendly and accommodating the people over here are.  Now I am not talking about access to courses but sometimes it embarrases me that we are not as welcoming back home.

Tom D-

I holed a bunker shot from a 6ft deep greenside bunker at Saucon Valley with a putter!  You would have got a kick out of it.  GCAer David Cronheim as witness!

[Joel_Stewart]

Mac,
Study the classics but appreciate the ordinary around the area.  IMO building architects have always studied the great one but most make their living with some very good buildings or homes that incorporate much of the classics. 

To me, this is good advice.  Study the classics and especially the restorations and renovations at such classics.  Any course mentioned in this thread has changed, some for the better and some for the worse.  This is how you can see true architecture, it's strengths and weaknesses.

Come to Northern California and within a short drive you can study so many classics and how they have changed.

SFGC - thoughtful restoration of the greens and restoration of 3 lost holes.
Meadow Club - another thoughtful restoration
Cal Club- restoration and renovation, very successful
Olympic Club- complete hatchet job
Monterey Peninsula CC- well planned renovation

[Mac Plumart]

Thanks guys...this has helped me a great deal.  Reading the posts has made it clear what I need to do next year and that is meet more people who have passion and knowledge for golf architecture and simply spend some time with them.  To date, this has been my best form of education.  Reading, playing, traveling are obviously right up there...but add in time with quality people who know what they are talking about and that is the ticket.

Thanks!

[Garland Bayley]

Find some seaside dunes, and hike and look.
Find some mountain meadows, and hike and look.
Find some rolling land, and hike and look.

[Alex Lagowitz]

I would also highly recommend the following courses
- Royal Dornoch (an absolute must as it is the roots of Donald Ross and many of his ideas came from here)
- Western Gailes (beautiful property and many great holes)
- Turnberry (great routing and some great features such as the centerline bunker on 11th)
- The NEW course

[Mac Plumart]

As I mentioned previously in this thread, with all your guys comments I’ve got a good grip on what I must do next year.  And that is spend some quality time with educated and experienced people and soak up all the knowledge I can.  In addition to that, I’ll continue to tick off some more courses seen and books read.  I should be seeing some great courses in the next 12 months, including Dismal River a number of times.  Seeing the #2 course come to life, should be amazing!!

But in the spirit of this thread, I’d like to share things that have had an impact on me and my golf architectural eduacation thus far (don’t worry, I’ll be brief and only hit some highlights).

As I mentioned previously, NGLA and its soil.  That drainage was amazing to see for a guy used to GA clay courses.

The landscapes in Mullen, NE.  People say they are akin to Ireland and its dunes.  I can’t say for sure as I haven’t been to Ireland, but I can say they are mind-blowingly dramatic.

The Old Course in Scotland.  WOW!!!  This opened my eyes to the kind of golf I enjoy.  Centerline bunkers, deep bunkers, ideal angles of attack not being simply right down the middle…in a nutshell, unique thoughts need to be employed on each and every shot.  Including putts!!

Askernish…learned about what is important in maintenance and what is not.  Learned about natural golf courses.  Learned about routing.  I could go on and on about this one.

Aiken Golf Club…learned what type of golf course every town needs.

Chechessee Creek, Sebonack, Dismal River…through the combination of these three courses, I learned that I need a course with some “thrills”.  This highlights a personal preference and not an architectural must.

 Inverness and the “new” #2…Learned the importance of careful and considerate restoration/rennovation.

The Classic Club…learned that too much water is not a good thing (at least for me).

Ansely Settindown, The Bears Club, Seminole…learned that low handicappers like a different style of golf course than I do. 

Shinnecock Hills…saw first hand what a perfect championship golf course should be.  Great, challenging, playable, and no “tricks” were necessary.  Probably the “best” course I’ve ever played.

God, I’m long winded…I’ll stop.

[Keith OHalloran]

Mac,
You have mentioned that you take notes before and after a round. How do those notes compare at each of these courses? Have any highly regarded courses disappointed? Have any far exceeded your pre round expectation? Do you notice a common theme among the notes you have made at courses you love?

[Mark Saltzman]

Mac,

Like Keith, I am very interested in your notes.  When I read that you kept them I thought it was a phenomenal idea and one that I would try.  I am playing a new course tomorrow and have a blank piece of paper in front of me and feel like a kid with a paper due tomorrow having not even yet picked a topic.  I have no idea what to write!

Could you please expand a bit?

[Tom_Doak]

Mac:

The day you forget about your expectations and just take the course for what it gives you, you'll be a real student.

[Mac Plumart]

My pre-round notes are almost 100% focused on how I am feeling about the course and what I am expecting to see and experience while playing the course.  From time to time, there are certain features that I am looking forward to...like say the original Redan at North Berwick or the template holes at NGLA.  Some may like this approach, while others may not like it at all.

I can say that by and large my pre-round notes looking nothing like my post round notes.  In the post round notes, I essentially just write down what I experienced, what I saw, and how it made me feel.

NGLA I was looking forward to the template holes, the redan, the alps, etc...but what I was stunned by was the greens.  I'll never forget coming up and over the slope to the first fairway to the first green and feeling my jaw literally hit the ground.  That first green was amazing.  I was also worried that the pre-round excitement and anticipation would not live up to all the hype.  After seeing that first green and playing all the holes (without a single weak one), the course exceeded my expecations in terms of fun, excitement, the course holding my interest, etc.

For North Berwick, my anticipation was focused on The Redan...but my post round notes were more about 13, 16 green and that enite stretch of holes from 13-18...the best stretch of golf I've ever seen (for my taste).  Also, I was (and still am) confused about the template holes of the redan.  It seems the templates copy 4 at NGLA and not 15 at North Berwick.  There seems so much more at North Berwick that is left out of the copies.

Canterbury, I was ho-hum about going to play the course...but it was a Strong course, I'd never played one...so I'd check it out.  I was floored by the uniqueness of the holes, especially the closing stretch, the amazing quality of the turf, the open feel of the routing and the course despite the limited acreage.  This led me to seek out more Strong courses...Inwood last year and Saucon Valley next year.  Thus far, I LOVE the uniqueness of what is left of his work.

A really interesting thing is the courses that grow on me over time.  Ballyneal for instance.  I was really keen to play it and experience the routing and the naturalness of it.  Which was, in fact, what my post round notes focused on...but over the coming days, weeks, and months, I could not get 7, 8, and 12 out of my mind.  I was burning to play them again and stand on the tee box and behind the green and see those holes.  Thank God, I've played it a few more times...but the pull of those same holes has not left me.

I could go on and on...but I hope you get the gist of what I do.



Tom D...I am a "real" student for sure.  Perhaps not just like you, but I am what I am and you are what you are.  That is what makes the world go 'round.  I can certainly appreciate that you don't agree with my approach and that is fine.  However, I've heard you mention Scotland before, I hear you mention it again on this thread, and I will be taking your advice and going back as soon as I can.

[Ben Sims]

Mac:

The day you forget about your expectations and just take the course for what it gives you, you'll be a real student.

Tom,

There is a 0% chance that anyone is 100% successful in this axiom.  Sorry, but human nature plays a role.  Expectation is only natural.  In fact, I think that if anyone has a true desire for golf course architecture and doesn't know anything about the course they're about to play, then they don't really care about GCA.  Study study study.  Learn learn learn.  If you're living like that, then expectation is bound to occur.

[Mac Plumart]

Oops...

Keith, you ask about common themes in the course I like.  Yes, I think I've identified a few.  I wrote about some of them on my site.

Here are two articles...

http://www.mrpgolf.com/what_I_like_in_a_golf_course.html

http://www.mrpgolf.com/what_I_like_part_II.html

I am thinking about adding a third one that focuses on thrilling golf.

But, please remember, this is what I like.  I encourage everyone to find out what they like and not to rely on a Top 100 list or somone else's opinion to dicate their preferences.  This is how "hidden gems" rise in stature, I think.  Perhaps the emergence of Crystal Downs, Fishers Island, and even NGLA happened in this manner.

[Keith OHalloran]

Good stuff Mac, I like your approach.
while TD's advice is very Zen like (actually sounds eerily similar to a fortune Igot in a cookie last week), I think it is nearly impossible to check your expectations at the door when you visit a place like NGLA. Maybe all the preparation you do aids in your learning experience?

[Mac Plumart]

Maybe all the preparation you do aids in your learning experience?

I think it does.  But even if it doesn't, I enjoy it.  So what the heck...I'll keep doing it!   

[Tom_Doak]

Mac:

The day you forget about your expectations and just take the course for what it gives you, you'll be a real student.

Tom,

There is a 0% chance that anyone is 100% successful in this axiom.  Sorry, but human nature plays a role.  Expectation is only natural.  In fact, I think that if anyone has a true desire for golf course architecture and doesn't know anything about the course they're about to play, then they don't really care about GCA.  Study study study.  Learn learn learn.  If you're living like that, then expectation is bound to occur.

Ben:

I will grant that it's hard to figure out WHERE to go without having any idea WHY you're going.

But, did you really gain anything from having expectations of Dismal River II, versus what you saw?  Wasn't it enough to think that something worthwhile was going on, and you were there to find out what it was?

That, my friend, is the essence of golf course architecture.  Because the true essence of golf course architecture is that YOU DON'T KNOW what's going to happen on a new site, until you figure it out.

[Kyle Harris]

Mac:

Another thing for thought:



What's behind the apple?

The treachery of images!

[jeffwarne]

Mac:

The day you forget about your expectations and just take the course for what it gives you, you'll be a real student.

If one had NO expectations, he would not be seeking out the course.

It could happen perhaps at a course you were invited to play as a guest or in a tournament.(where I discovered many of the great courses of the MET section)

[Kyle Harris]

Mac:

The day you forget about your expectations and just take the course for what it gives you, you'll be a real student.

Tom,

There is a 0% chance that anyone is 100% successful in this axiom.  Sorry, but human nature plays a role.  Expectation is only natural.  In fact, I think that if anyone has a true desire for golf course architecture and doesn't know anything about the course they're about to play, then they don't really care about GCA.  Study study study.  Learn learn learn.  If you're living like that, then expectation is bound to occur.

Ben:

I will grant that it's hard to figure out WHERE to go without having any idea WHY you're going.

But, did you really gain anything from having expectations of Dismal River II, versus what you saw?  Wasn't it enough to think that something worthwhile was going on, and you were there to find out what it was?

That, my friend, is the essence of golf course architecture.  Because the true essence of golf course architecture is that YOU DON'T KNOW what's going to happen on a new site, until you figure it out.

I thought the third hole at Streamsong (on my first day there) was much longer. It wasn't until I realized I was actually walking within the red flags that I was on the green and I remember having my mind absolutely blown by this fact and it helped me to shut my brain off and just go with it.

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