Tiff or Common Bermuda for ideal rough in warm season climates?

[Randy Thompson]

From a playability point of view, what is the better grass for a rough, common bermuda grass or one of the hybrid tiffs. I personally prefer common. The advantages I see is that when maintained between an inch and a half to two inches, it provides a fair punishment for hitting off line. You can find your ball and most of the time if you execute the proper shot you can recover and get the club through the grass. You can also grow it up for tournaments and it becomes more difficult but still fair. Tiff on the other hand mowed at an inch or slight more doesnīt seem to punish at all, most of the time its sitting on top almost teed up. When you grow it up or try to maintain higher it goes the opposite direction and can become brutal, the ball can fall through and becomes difficult to find, you break your damm wrist trying to get a club through it and the recuperation shot almost disappears for Average Joe. It also seems to get super inconsistent when trying to provide a tournament height. Some architects spec the tiiff for the rough but I think it more because of the overall final look in relation to aesthetic and they think it give a more classy market perception. They also say they can widen and narrow fairway width to their liking. A decision based on two visual factors and one practical factor but seems to lacks playability consideration. What says the board, are there other factor I should be considering that weigh in favor of the wall to wall tiff direction?

[Anthony_Nysse]

I think the complete opposite to your description. Though common is better for traffic and recovery, I would lose my job if we maintained it at 2". The ball wants to sink to the bottom if maintained over 1.75".
  I am not sure what Tiff you are reffering to-tifsport? I'd take good ol fashion 419 everywhere. We had it at Colonial and didnt have a problem getting it to 3" for the PGA and also had it 3-4" for AJGA at Long Cove. I've always felt with 419, that there was a 50/50 chance you would get a good lie at a higher height. Tifsport leaves the ball sitting up, but doesnt really grow above 1.25" and common the ball just goes to the ground over 1.75"

[Lou_Duran]

Common, minimally watered and fertilized.  I don't recall your experience with hybrid roughs cut at 1", particlularly close to the fairways where water and chemicals tend to migrate.   Mine is that the ball usually settles down into a much thicker rough- 1" hybrid is more penal often than 2" common.  I also like the fairways outlined by the rough which, I think, Common does better.  However, I detest the practice that some courses employ of letting the coastal bermuda grow 6" to 1'+ in what the supt. considers out-of-the-way areas for contrast and aesthetics.  They seem to be a magnet for my foul balls at the most unpropitious times.

[Grant Saunders]

I think, especially for rough, the best option is whatever cultivars occur naturally in the area.

Any attempt to manage a grass that is foreign to that specific environment is only going to be unnecessarily difficult and most likely be overtaken by the stronger naturally present species.

As for playability and consistency, if you have to keep tiff at 1 inch or there abouts that is going to require a much higher mowing frequency than common at 2 inch. This will equate to much higher labour, fuel and machinery inputs. While at the outset of a new course this may be achievable, down the track as most projects end up scaling back maintenance levels, it may present a problem.

[Matt Wharton]

We used to have common here at CGC prior to our 2008 restoration when we regrassed with 419.  We used to mow the common with a 5-gang at 1.75 inches.  We now mow the 419 with Toro 4500's set at 2 inches (twice a week during the growing season).  The new floating deck mowers made a huge difference but one thing I have always noticed with the 419 is during the spring and early summer the ball tends to sit up on top.  Once you get into late July-early August the turf will no longer support the weight of the ball and everything goes to the bottom.  I start to get complaints insinuating we didn't mow at the same time every year!  After mid-September it becomes 50/50 with some balls staying up top.

[Greg Clark]

419 is my preference.

[Mike_Young]

There is not an ideal bermuda rough.   

[Randy Thompson]

Good point Mike but tell us what are most of your courses or if asked what would you recommend and why.

[Lou_Duran]

No offense to Greg Clark, but 419 as rough sucks!.  I was just one foot off the fairway today at a muni with some irrigation and drainage issues, where a patch of 1.5" 419 rough got a bit extra water, and the ball was only visible from the very top.  All I could do was hack it out 50 yards out toward the hole.  Nastiest short stuff I have ever seen.  Two to three inch Common maintained lean is the way to go.   

[Mike_Young]

Good point Mike but tell us what are most of your courses or if asked what would you recommend and why.

I would go the same as my fairway which is usually 419.  This would allow for width adjustment of fairways etc where common in the rough determines the area to remain rough..same thing when you have Zoyzia fairways.  BUT 1.25 inch height is probably the most it should be for everyday play....it's just too tough...

[Bill_McBride]

No offense to Greg Clark, but 419 as rough sucks!.  I was just one foot off the fairway today at a muni with some irrigation and drainage issues, where a patch of 1.5" 419 rough got a bit extra water, and the ball was only visible from the very top.  All I could do was hack it out 50 yards out toward the hole.  Nastiest short stuff I have ever seen.  Two to three inch Common maintained lean is the way to go.   

How do you separate the fairway grass and the common?   Or are you okay with common fairways?

Firmest fairways I ever played on were common Bermuda, no irrigation, in the dry sommer, on the old nine holes at Newnan (Georgia) CC, c. 1962.   Yowza!

[Lou_Duran]

How do you separate the fairway grass and the common?   Or are you okay with common fairways?

Firmest fairways I ever played on were common Bermuda, no irrigation, in the dry sommer, on the old nine holes at Newnan (Georgia) CC, c. 1962.   Yowza!

Not being a trained agronomist, I can only speculate that it is difficult to do (separating the two grasses) if the intent is to have perfect fairways and clear lines.  Having been a member of a course that converted its fairways from a mix of grasses, mostly common, to 419, the parts of the rough that didn't get much water and fertilizer weren't overtaken by the 419.  This created a bigger problem in that shots marginally missed were penalized heavily, while foul balls, provided that they didn't land behind a tree, often offered a much better lie.

Common does not seem to handle cart traffic well, so if the course gets a lot of play, 419 in the fairways is probably the way to go.  Me, I can live with wall-to-wall common provided that the course, and, in particular, the green entries, are kept firm.  The way budgets and golfer preferences are today, I suspect that one crop of grass- a 419 type in the South- is what we'll have.  Perhaps water restrictions will cause course managers to turn the automatic sprinklers down.

[Randy Thompson]

Lou,
If budget is concern there is a lot in favor of the 419 and common in the rough. First many courses are not fortunate to have ample topsoil so the good stuff goes to the fairway and whatever is left over is used for the rough, so you many times you donīt have a real good base and the common seems to grow in anything including asphalt and concrete. If your growing common in your rough I agree with limiting the water and the fertilizer, so instead of the typical wall to wall irrigation or head to head coverage that results in equal distribution, you can be less concerned with the rough and design the system so that the rough gets water but not a perfect watering and thereby reduce significantly the number of heads and the initial intallation cost(In todays cost as much as $200,000). Once a year fertilzing on clay soil keeps it green and fairly playable. Of course there will always be some complicated lies but as you also stated most of the time it is a fair penalty with a decent chance of recovering. With the 419 if its up, its a piece of cake and if its down...good luck! If you have an unlimitted budget (which I hope this phase becomes extinct in the future for the benefit of golf), a wall to wall irrigation system and for example sand throughout as your growing medium, than the scales could tip in favor of the 419 cut weekly at an inch an a quarter.