Updated Notts profile is posted ...

[Ran Morrissett]

... under Courses by Country.

Many of the people who routinely read this web site travel extensively, seeing 500 plus courses as if that was nothing.
 
Of the world’s great courses, I wonder which gets seen the least? Written from the perspective of someone sitting in North Carolina, is it Hirono or Durban or Paraparaumu or Barnbougle/Lost Farms? Others too would obviously be in contention.
 
However, one that SHOULDN’T be is Notts in Nottingham. A few hour drive from London, it hardly could be considered remote and yet my experience is that few people set about arranging a game here. That’s a great mistake as right at the top of inland British courses could well be Notts. It combines length and raw challenge without sacrificing anything on the charm meter, a very neat trick. Look at some of the photographs (especially those on the back nine when the sun came out) and tell me that’s not about the perfect golf environment in which to enjoy a game. The heather, gorse, silver birch, ferns, etc. coupled with no homes anywhere in view allow the golfer to connect with nature in a meaningful manner. Notts also enjoys design pedigree in that Willie Park Junior deserves a vast amount of credit for the course there today. In addition, big names like Sandy Lyle and Christy O’Connor have won there. 
 
England is rife with outstanding inland courses, helping to make it my favorite country in the world for golf. The list is seemingly endless, ranging from the obvious ones like the courses at Sunningdale to the hidden gems like Little Aston. Still, sometimes, I am almost apologetic as a few of my favorites courses could be gobbled up by a tiger (not that I really care).  However, it is also nice to champion unreservedly a big sprawling course that is loads of fun to play. My brother John always said I was nuts not to go to Notts and he was right!
 
Cheers,
 

[Ben Stephens]

Hi Ran,

About time you played Notts! I always look forward to the next time I play there courtesy of James Boon and another friend who are members there. I am sure Boony will chip in this thread sooner than later.

There are lots of long par 4's on this supreme golf course and if it was in London it would not surprise me if it hosted a number of tour events. To me the 2nd, 4th, 12th and 15th, all long par 4's over 430 yards slightly uphill and for most plays longer than its yardage is the backbone of this layout supplemented by a series of interesting medium par 4's (7,8,10,11,16) and par 5's with birdie opportunities (3, 6 and 17) as well as the awesome 13th.

18 used to be a par 5 where the tee played over the other side of the 17th green which looks like a semi blind shot.

I have always thought the first was a bit of a mundane hole but it is nice to get the easiest par 4 out of the way when there are tougher one coming up.

I dont agree with the large greenside bunker on 16 I would have preferred a pot bunker possibly in the middle and allow people driving for the green to have a chance to go for it and a steep slope is just as effective hazard as a bunker the shot is more difficult to get backspin from a tight fescue lie than a sandy lie in the bunker.

Boony doesnt really like 11 and I dont really like 12 as my drive always end in the chasm!! Those are the 'Marmite' holes of Hollinwell.

Like every course I see - I always ask where can it be better and at Hollinwell there are fewer areas where they could improve compared with most course due to the strength of the design of the course and Willie Park jr is fast becoming one of my favourite architects to look up.
(Will have to go to the old Northampton course to see the remains of the NLE course)

Again thanks Ran for coming over to play in BUDA and I hope you come back over to the UK again to play several other great courses as well as BUDA in the future.

Cheers
Ben  

[James Boon]

Ran,

An excellent update of the Notts GC (Hollinwell) profile which saves me the time and bother of having to put together an "In My Opinion" piece on the course! 

Not only was it an honour to meet you recently at Buda, but I was humbled by your kind words regarding your experience of the course. I only wish I had been able to join you the day you and Joe played there as it looks to have turned into a cracking afternoon!

The real strength of the course for me is that it flows from heathland to parkland to moorland and then back to parkland and heathland, so naturally that you hardly realise it. This variety of landscape and setting, is also backed up by the variety of the holes, and even with 12 par 4s, as you say you never find yourself thinking "Not another par 4!"

The 2nd is indeed a firm favourite of plenty of the members, but I think just as many like the 13th, and perhaps several other holes are candidates as well?

In recent years the club has carried out plenty of work removing plenty of trees and renovating the heather. This work has opened up plenty of beautiful heathland like views within the course, while it still feels self contained and away from the outside world. I know some of the older members preferred the more tree lined look for some of the holes, but returning the course closer to how it originally was, as well as providing a better habitat for wildlife, is in my opinion for the better.

Ben,

I must say the 11th has grown on me over time, a little like the 7th at Burnham & Berrow, in that the more you play it the more you get to know it and like it. The 12th also comes in for some flack, but I don't see it myself, as I think its a great hole. If you can hit it long enough to get into the hollow, you will probably only have a short iron to the green and with all that room out right, it makes for a great approach shot, as Ran mentions in the profile.

I too feel I should get to see more of Park Junior's work, but also need to find out more about Tom Williamson, as I've probably played most of his courses which were pretty much all local to this area. However, how much of Williamson's original work remains is never clear at courses who don't really understand their heritage and have allowed years of different Captain's and green committees to make changes willy nilly.

I hope any GCAers reading this and fancying a game will get in touch. Also, anyone with any questions about Hollinwell, please feel free to add them to this thread and I'll do my best to answer.

Cheers,

James

Here is the link to Ran's profile
http://www.golfclubatlas.com/courses-by-country/england/notts1/
And here is a link to a photo thread I put together some years ago, before joining
http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,39814.0.html
(though I've just discovered Photobucket have made life difficult, so hopefully the pics should be visible towards the middle of the month!!!)

[John Mayhugh]

England is rife with outstanding inland courses, helping to make it my favorite country in the world for golf.

I agree.

Thanks much for the updated profile.  Some really nice photos there.  I was fortunate enough to see Notts with Boony earlier this year and really enjoyed it.  I do love English golf, and it might be the most difficult course I've played there so far.  The holes are really memorable thanks partly to the changing landscapes.  But as nice as the isolation of some of the holes was, I may enjoy the abundance of activity around the clubhouse (entrance drive, 1st tee, 3rd green, 4th tee, 18th green) even more.  What a great place to be.

[Tom Kelly]

Nice job on the profile, I think it sums up the course pretty much perfectly.

I have probably played Hollinwell more than any other course bar my home club yet every time I go back it seems to get better, which I think shows its quality. I haven't been fortunate enough to play many of the London sand-belt courses, but from what I have played and seen I think it could well be the best inland course in England or at least as good as any out there?!

I am surprised that considering its quality and with Sherwood Forest, Lindrick, Worksop and Coxmoor all just around the corner more people don't make an effort to see the area.

[Sean_A]

Ran, nice review of a terrific course.  One issue, I can't believe you didn't include the 11th as a notable hole.  Sure the green is incredibly small for such a muscular hole, but it works.  This section going up the ridge, around it, down and back up it again is my favourite part of the course as a tough piece of land is used incredibly well.  It is these holes which really set Notts apart as a challenger for best inland course in England. 

Ben - shame on you for not liking the 12th.  You are losing your sense of adventure with your advancing years.

Ciao

[Tom Kelly]

Sean,

I think that section of the course combines the best and worse of the course. Yes it is a fantastic use of an awkward bit of land and includes two of the best holes on the course in the 11th and 13th but it also includes the 10th which I personally think is the worst hole on the course and I do know a fair few people who don't like 12, though I also know people who think it is the best hole at Notts.....a bit of a marmite hole. I like the 12th but I think the punishment for missing the green left is a bit too severe considering lots of people are hitting an almost totally blind shot from down in the dip or from a long way out. It is especially harsh for people who don't know the course and how far right you really should be aiming. Simply cutting back the gorse etc on the left and making a small run off area could improve the hole in my opinion and it would still be a tough up and down from quite a way below the green?!

I do agree that the 11th is definitely a hole of note though, it is between the 11th and the 2nd for my favourite hole on the course, The 11th looks absolutely fantastic when the gorse and heather is in bloom.

[Sean_A]

Thomas

I liked the 10th too!  The green is exceptional - maybe the best on the course.  All this talk really reminds me how good that back nine at Notts is, but my favourite is probably the 16th.

Ciao

[Ben Stephens]

Ran, nice review of a terrific course.  One issue, I can't believe you didn't include the 11th as a notable hole.  Sure the green is incredibly small for such a muscular hole, but it works.  This section going up the ridge, around it, down and back up it again is my favourite part of the course as a tough piece of land is used incredibly well.  It is these holes which really set Notts apart as a challenger for best inland course in England. 

Ben - shame on you for not liking the 12th.  You are losing your sense of adventure with your advancing years.

Ciao

Sean,

I admit that the 12th is growing on me - I prefer playing this hole off the championship tee as its a long way to reach the huge dip. I will change tack off the yellows/white by using a 3 wood instead to give me a flatter lie + easier shot to the green. Initally it peeved me off because I had hit several good drives on the right hand side and it seems to always kick left into the rough on the left side!!

Ran has put a picture of the 11th on the first photo. Its a difficult and unusual hole - Notts is great because every hole has its own character and they are different and requires a course management plan - knowing where to be conservative or take risks!

Cheers
Ben

[Paul_Turner]

Notts feels like the biggest routing in Britain,  perhaps Broadstone is close.

[Tony Dear]

Mannings Heath just south of London is another course with a big routing. Apart from on a few holes up towards the clubhouse, I never really know where I am in relation to the 1st and 18th. I don't think it's quite on Notts' scale but it is widespread, especially for an English course. It's also worth mentioning it's really good.

[Tom_Doak]

Ran, nice review of a terrific course.  One issue, I can't believe you didn't include the 11th as a notable hole.  Sure the green is incredibly small for such a muscular hole, but it works.  This section going up the ridge, around it, down and back up it again is my favourite part of the course as a tough piece of land is used incredibly well.  It is these holes which really set Notts apart as a challenger for best inland course in England.

I second these thoughts.  I haven't thought about Hollinwell for a long time, but I remember that I told Ran years ago that it was the course I thought was most reminiscent of High Pointe, especially the section of the course which Sean cites.  That portion of the course gave a lot to my ideals of how to route a course ... it's a bit like the high holes at Royal Dornoch or Cruden Bay, but pulled off a lot better, specifically because of #11.

I would have seen the course on my year overseas regardless, but the primary mover for my visit was Walter Woods, who was the grenkeeper at Notts for several years before he took the job at St. Andrews.  He just loved the course, and set up for me to visit.  At the time, the local golf pro in the shop was Brian Waites, who was actively playing the European Tour and played on the Ryder Cup team in 1983, the year after I visited.  Not bad for a club pro!

[Tom Kelly]

Am I right in saying that Walter always proclaimed Notts as the best course in the world even whilst working at TOC? I vaguely remember a couple of conversations with a few of the green-staff whilst I was at St Andrews last year and they all knew of Notts because of Walter. I thought they were probably exaggerating about what he said but he clearly holds the course in high esteem?

Also Brian was still there until about ten years ago, he was at the club almost as long Tom Williamson!

[Paul_Turner]

I'm surprised the 14th was left out too!  What a lovely rolling hole.

[Ben Stephens]

Thought you guys would be interested in this re: Notts .....

A friend of Boony and I who is a member at Notts told me a few years back that the club was bidding to host the 2015 Walker Cup (now announced to be at Royal Lytham + St. Annes). The R + A said that there were issues to the road bisecting the 3rd and 18th holes that both greens were too close to the road for a 'major' event to be held there. Also the clubhouse was not big enough.

So I did some sketch proposals - to relocate the 3rd and 18th greens further away from the road, make the clubhouse bigger. By moving the 3rd green has small implications to the 1st and by rebuilding the pro shop closer to the driving range allows the 1st to be realigned into a more interesting hole by moving the fairway right of the current one creating a dog leg right risk and reward opening drive rather than the straightforward drive as the current course presents.

The new 3rd and 18th greens closely reflect the current greens and the only real difference is the run off area to the left of the 3rd is a hollow to replace the road. Also the 4th tees are moved further to the right to created a more challenging drive off the back tees.

Remember this is a hypothetical scheme not a real one!


Map of proposed redesign  


Image of existing 18th


Image of proposed 18th and extended clubhouse

Cheers
Ben

[Scott Warren]

All that work, cost and tinkering with classic architecture to host a few amateurs for a week?

[Ben Stephens]

All that work, cost and tinkering with classic architecture to host a few amateurs for a week?

Scott

Its only an idea - on the other hand it could increase the chances of getting pro tournaments as well! In an ideal world I would prefer the 'European' PGA Championship at Notts than at 'TPC' Wentworth.

It would improve safety and the 1st is a improvement. I like the current 3rd but it can be dangerous if an astray ball lands on the road - the club could be liable for any damages whether it strikes a golfer or a car!

I have also modified my write up to make sure everyone know that this is a hypothetical scheme if it was carried out to satisfy the R + A and H + S!

Hey what about Bonnie Doon being ripped up? this is subtle tweaks compared to BD

Cheers
Ben

[Scott Warren]

Bonnie Doon in its current state should not be compared to Notts!

And nothing classic about it!

[Ben Stephens]

Bonnie Doon in its current state should not be compared to Notts!

And nothing classic about it!

It will become a classic  I have faith in Chainsaw Mike and his gang!

[James Boon]

Ben,

Your proposals appear sound to me, but I'd be reluctant to make the changes.

The proximity of those greens and tees to the entrance road, are a very deep rooted part of the character of the course, and Mr Mayhugh isn't the first to comment on it being a great counter part to the isolation you feel at other parts of the course.

Cheers,

James

[Sean_A]

The 3rd hole is about the road!  Take that away and there isn't much to talk about.  However, I can see trying improve the opener as it doesn't properly get the player into the round.

Ciao

[Terry Lavin]

I read the profile yesterday and I was transfixed. What a beguiling golf course!  The depth of the English "bench" is impressive, indeed. Mr. Boon is a lucky guy to be a member at such a club.

[Mark Pearce]

In reality Notts deserves to be in the team, rather than on the bench.  It's right up there with the best inland courses in the country.  In my book and based on just two rounds at Notts. only Ganton is clearly better and then not by far.  Obviously that recollection needs to be confirmed and James can expect the pleasure of taking me round again sooner rather than later.