[George Freeman]

Bad angle which makes the hole look much tighter than it is:


Zoomed in on the "200 yard" landing zone (I assume - this is the same landing zone I hit with a 6-iron), with the green in the background.  You can see the next landing zone up in between the green and the foreground of the photo:


This picture shows the entire left side.  More room than appears in some of the other photos:


Further down the hill, this photo shows a sliver of the bottom fairway (the "150-65" yarder), and a fairly wide landing area (considering the club used to get there).  Side note: bad spot for a cart path!


Maybe 90 yards from the green?  I think this would be the look if your shot held up in the rough on the second level (or "200 yard" level):


Little further left:

[George Freeman]

Jorge,

How would you play it in 3 shots?  Hit PW off the tee to the bottom fairway?  Then you are hitting over a wall, Big Break style.

A 25-handicaper playing from the correct tees (5,695 yards - 244 for #17) could hit three 9-irons, two putt, and walk away with a pretty stress free bogey.  You would just need to learn an aiming point from the bottom fairway (not too hard I wouldn't think - just aim 10 yards left of the right tree line).  Easy task as this is a members course.

Also, I'm a little fuzzy on this, but I think there is more room short and right of the green than it appears from these photos.  This spot would be landing area B I think?  Maybe a shot of 230-40 yards or so from the tips?  This area is probably best seen from my first photo, over the "elbow" of first-cutt rough on the right.

[George Freeman]

I agree on 18.  I think if you moved the teeing area down the hill and closer to #10 green it would be a much better hole.  The greensite is fantastic.

JC - check google.maps.  There is a teeing ground down and back from the #17 green, pretty close to the 10th green.  I think this is the tips as I believe I played that tee on my one play.  And for the record, I think #18 is a great hole from either tee box.  You got one thing right: the green site is fantastic.

[George Freeman]

I disagree on 12 and 16 and I'll take them over 2,3,4 and 5 any day of the week.

We're not agreeing on much today.  #5 might have been my favorite hole on the course!

[JC Jones]

I have not played 18 from the tips and I agree that playing from where that tee appears to be would likely be better.  From up by 17 green you either have to play to cut a major chunk off the corner or take less club so as to not go through the fairway straight away.

I think 5 plays better if the hay was gone between the left fairway and the green.  Even still, everyone loves 5 but I just don't see it.  For what it's worth, I loved both 5 and 17 the first time I played CD.

[George Freeman]

For what it's worth, I loved both 5 and 17 the first time I played CD.

Touché.  I'll be the first to acknowledge that I need more plays out there to really have a dog in this fight.

[Mark Saltzman]

For what it's worth, I loved both 5 and 17 the first time I played CD.

Touché.  I'll be the first to acknowledge that I need more plays out there to really have a dog in this fight.

Me too.  I hope some of those that have played the course multiple times will chime in with an opinion.

I think I played the course on a day where it is a bit softer than normal and the greens certainly slower than normal.  I wonder if that positively impacted my view of the course.  Being above the hole was not a certain bogey as many have described it in this thread.  And I didn't feel as though there would be a problem with hitting the fairway on 17 provided a good, though not necessarily perfect, tee shot is hit.

[JC Jones]

For what it's worth, I loved both 5 and 17 the first time I played CD.

Touché.  I'll be the first to acknowledge that I need more plays out there to really have a dog in this fight.

That's not what I meant.  I've only played there a few times so I'm no expert here at all.  What I meant was that I've changed my opinion on some holes with more plays but your opinions are certainly legit as I've made those same arguments you have.  The great thing about great courses is that there are risks on them that cause great discussion.

[Will Lozier]

Seems like 17 at Crystal Downs and 14 at Bandon Trails have a lot in common?

[Tim Bert]

Seems like 17 at Crystal Downs and 14 at Bandon Trails have a lot in common?

They are both short par 4s that generate strong opinions but I'm not sure about the comparison beyond that. The problem most people have at Crystal I think is the drive or tee shot where at Trails the issues come on the approach.

I've heard more than one person say the 14th is their favorite hole at Trails. I don't think too many people have that same opinion of 17 at Crystal Downs.  While I think the Trails 14 conversation is often a love/ hate one, it seems like the discussion of 17 at Crystal Downs is more of a like/hate one.

They both certainly have a good number of people with pitchforks and bulldozers lined up at the door.

[Will Lozier]

Seems like 17 at Crystal Downs and 14 at Bandon Trails have a lot in common?

They are both short par 4s that generate strong opinions but I'm not sure about the comparison beyond that. The problem most people have at Crystal I think is the drive or tee shot where at Trails the issues come on the approach.

I've heard more than one person say the 14th is their favorite hole at Trails. I don't think too many people have that same opinion of 17 at Crystal Downs.  While I think the Trails 14 conversation is often a love/ hate one, it seems like the discussion of 17 at Crystal Downs is more of a like/hate one.

They both certainly have a good number of people with pitchforks and bulldozers lined up at the door.

Tim,

First of all, I have to qualify that I've never played Crystal Downs.  My statement refers to the extremity of "precision required" and the reality of difficulty in relation to yardage.  I would say that they are both quite exacting from the tee as well and, in the right conditions, good players can have a go at the green.  I realize that the fairway on BT 14 is VERY wide but the ideal spot is quite difficult to hit as it seems to the be the case at CD 17.  And, there are multiple options as far as clubbing off the tee.  And yes, the approach to BT 14 is the real issue. 

Your last statement seems (surprising to me) the most true comparision!

Extreme holes on extreme ground, to me, provides the most joy and exhilaration!

Cheers

[Michael Wharton-Palmer]

 thought ofthe hole as a very testing shortpar four, where accuracy is a premium, following a long hole where accuracy was of little importance.
I considerd this rather clever by whoever the architect.
The fairway width at 200 plus is not that narrow, demanding yes but not at svere as some seem to be suggesting.
I dont thn that short par fours should automaticaly give you plenty of space just because they are short...hole number 15 is a great little short hole, but more generous off the tee and into the green...16 space space everywhere and then a hole that is very demanding on accuracy, surrely that is an architect trying to get something for everybody.
I was playing with a buddy of mine who hits the ball along long way but sometimes not that straight...after 16 this hole was just what the Dr ordered...pun intended...to get the match back into the right hands

[Brian_Sleeman]

As someone who has been fortunate to play the course quite a few times, I can confidently say there are no duds period.  You learn something new on every hole every play, and that's part of what makes the Downs so great.  

As for 17, MacKenzie has made an incredible hole out of incredibly tough terrain.  It provides the player with several options, which can change dramatically depending on the wind.  One can go for the green, leave it 20 yards short, 50 yards short, 80 yards short, 100-130 yards short (the most popular safe play), or down on the bottom level 150-170 yards short (I've played to all of those options).  Any of the in-betweens will funnel the ball into one of these areas or down into the rough on the left side.  Uncommitted swings and indecision lead to nothing but trouble.  From the tee this hole is all about choosing an option and committing to it.  The boldness of the terrain demands it and makes it unlike any other hole I've ever played.  To top it off, the wind is usually howling stronger into your face here than on any other spot on the course.

It also tends to get in your head several holes ahead of time.  310 of the most frightening yards of golf indeed.

All that said, it is a members' course after all, and is playable for any level of player so long as they give it some thought and respect.  The arrogant and ignorant pay the highest prices here.

[Mark Saltzman]

Brian,

Great post, thank you.

I have no doubt the following is true.

There are no duds period.  You learn something new on every hole every play, and that's part of what makes the Downs so great.  

[JC Jones]

Brian probably knows the course as well as all but 2 posters on this site so there you go.

I agree with him, you always learn something knew every time you play out there.

I'll disagree with him on the duds comment though

[Mark Saltzman]

Hole 18: Par 4, 400 Yards




I am unsure which tee was the original back tee for the 18th - the better, lower tee or the less interesting, but more comfortably routed upper tee.

From the lower tee, one can challenge the inside of the dogleg for a shorter approach and preferred angle into the green.  There is little fear of running through the fairway.


The lower (back) tee.




The upper (white) tee.  From here the tee shot is very awkward, forcing most players to hit less than driver so that they do not run through the fairway.  Brave players can attempt to carry the corner.




The approach is played uphill to a small green that is surrounded by bunkers.






There is also a significant false-front.  Note the location of my ball, which did spend some time (briefly) on the green before collecting back into the fairway.  Everything cants significantly from right-to-left and I presume many balls will find the front-left bunker.




The 18th green as seen from the path to the clubhouse.

[Patrick Kiser]

Mark,

Thanks for posting and sharing.  I've enjoyed this one and hope to make it up there at some point.  Good stuff.

I especially appreciate some of the input on the Mac / Maxwell greens and would have liked more, but some is better than none.

For those who have played various Macs and/or Maxwell courses left, I wonder if they notice which greens are obviously more Mac or Maxwell.  Is it obvious I guess (e.g. bowls vs. rolls)?

[Brian_Sleeman]

The original tee on 18 is indeed the one nearest the 17th green, but most of the players on that tee do not run it through the fairway from there.  They will typically aim on a line just left of the clubhouse and cut a tiny bit of the corner off, or hit a cut a little further left.

The long hitters shouldn't be up there unless they're forced to be - for them it's a matter of cutting off a ton and leaving themselves with a very short pitch to the green (which is no picnic, trying to bounce one in or spin it when the wind is usually right behind you).

From that back tee, not many try to cut much off (I usually aim at the 150 post on the right), and unless the wind is howling from behind, you usually don't have to worry about hitting it through the fairway.  Bombers aim at the right side of the fairway and will only find the left hay when they pull it.

What makes 18 so special to me is that green setting, benched so naturally into a dune and surrounded by tall native grasses and bunkers.  It's one of the best on the course, and the green itself is pretty challenging, but getting there is no easy task.  

Do you run your approach up the right side of the slope and hope it makes it onto the green before veering left and back down?  Do you fly it to the green and hope it doesn't bounce over into the bunkers (which often leaves you a downhill bunker shot)?  The green is elevated in relation to the player on the approach, and it looks like a tiny tabletop when you're faced with that decision.  

So much fun.

[Michael George]

Great thread.

Especially considering some of the other ones out there right now.

[Mike Hendren]

I think the 18th is one of the best driving holes out there.  Late in the day it forces the player to make a decision about line and length.  The correct decision is obfuscated by the fact that the dogleg is not as severe as it appears and the player's confidence is patronized by the significant downhill nature of the tee shot.  I'd be willing to bet the right hand hillside rough claims more than its fair share of golf balls.  It really requires a man to know his limitations - an attibute of great golf course architecture. 

Mike

[Sean_A]

Mark

Thanks for the tour.  I feel a bit like after reading B Bainbridge's The Bottle Factory Outing.  I didn't laugh nearly as much as it seemed I should.  I guess I just didn't get it.  Perhaps an onsite visit to CD will spare me the embarrassment...

Ciao

[Bill_McBride]

I think the 18th is one of the best driving holes out there.  Late in the day it forces the player to make a decision about line and length.  The correct decision is obfuscated by the fact that the dogleg is not as severe as it appears and the player's confidence is patronized by the significant downhill nature of the tee shot.  I'd be willing to bet the right hand hillside rough claims more than its fair share of golf balls.  It really requires a man to know his limitations - an attibute of great golf course architecture. 

Mike

After hitting my tee ball into the right hay, perhaps 30 yards off line, I decided that the tee box lined me up out there.   Anybody else feel like that?

After playing even fours for 10-15, I managed to finish 8-6-6 for a smooth 44.   

[Duncan Cheslett]

Mark

Thanks for the tour.  I feel a bit like after reading B Bainbridge's The Bottle Factory Outing.  I didn't laugh nearly as much as it seemed I should.  I guess I just didn't get it.  Perhaps an onsite visit to CD will spare me the embarrassment...

Ciao

I'd never even heard of this book until this evening when it was featured on a Radio 4 programme while I was on the way to the driving range after work.

I get home and Sean's talking about it on GCA!

I suppose I'll have to read the bloody thing now!

[Tim Nugent]

...What makes 18 so special to me is that green setting, benched so naturally into a dune and surrounded by tall native grasses and bunkers.  It's one of the best on the course, and the green itself is pretty challenging, ... 

So much fun.

Winner, winner, Chicken Dinner!  One of the best I've ever seen.
BTW, so glad the fairway tree is gone from 17.  As one who's 200 yd shot is a draw, that hole scares the hell out of me.  Now, if I could just remember how to hit that cut-shot.....

[Sean_A]

Mark

Thanks for the tour.  I feel a bit like after reading B Bainbridge's The Bottle Factory Outing.  I didn't laugh nearly as much as it seemed I should.  I guess I just didn't get it.  Perhaps an onsite visit to CD will spare me the embarrassment...

Ciao

I'd never even heard of this book until this evening when it was featured on a Radio 4 programme while I was on the way to the driving range after work.

I get home and Sean's talking about it on GCA!

I suppose I'll have to read the bloody thing now!

Duncan

I never even heard of the author until I moved to England.  A few folks said she is quite funny, but most of the humour must have passed by me or I didn't think it was funny.  The question, is that what CD would be like?

Ciao

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