[Ken Fry]

I've posted this story the last time discussion came around about Crystal Downs' 11th hole.

I was with a group a few years ago who were making their first trip around the course.  After the incredible experience of playing the front nine and not one person putting less than three times on 10, we reached the 11th.  I hit what looked liked a very good shot.  It went just over the flag and finished maybe 10 feet above the hole.  My playing partners were congratulating me on my shot when I informed them I'll be chipping back on the green for my third shot.  None of them believed me.

I aimed my putt at a 90 degree angle to the hole.  It rode the ridge, cut back to the hole, snuck by the lip and continued on it's way for another 50 feet off the front of the green.

Some may call it "unfair" but before I struck my shot I knew the cardinal rule for #11:  Never, ever, EVER be above the hole.

Ken

[Michael Wharton-Palmer]

Padraig,
I beg to differ.
I dont know that many good players that are of the opinion that the game does not include the ablilty to putt.
I think that is a rather integral part of the game, what I think good players do not appreciate is when a course set up does not match what the architect planned as being a challenge...when modern green keepers do not understand what is playable and what is not..this green borders on the unplayable.
There are numerous stories of qulaity players in quality events putting off this green, picking up in disgust etc...that may suggest that the green is  a little "out there"
As for the green locale...I agree ideal, but the original design, did indeed have more green back right, which over time has been discarded into unuse.
A pin placement back there would br wonderful.

[Mike Viscusi]

Seems like 9 and 11 both present a similar challenge with severely back to front sloping greens where long is dead.  Does this play as too repetitive during the round and too punishing, especially given that these two par 3's are only separated by one hole?

Was the penalty of not being able to keep putts on the green from above the hole MacKenzie's original intent? 

I'm all for a design that makes you identify a penal "do not hit it here" spot and then figuring out how to best attack while avoiding that location, but when that spot is anywhere on the green above the hole (especially if a false front eliminates a ground approach) and the penalty is a putt that won't stay on the putting surface, then I think it becomes too severe and takes the fun out of a hole. 

[BCrosby]

Padraig -

Spare us the bromides. Ditto what Michael says above.

Let me add that one test of a good hole is that it offers challenging, yet doable, recovery opportunities. I understand the notion that leaving a ball above a hole can leave you an unlikely two putt. Rub of the green, my bad, etc.

But being unable to hold the green at all is another matter. That is compounded by the inability to hold the green with well hit chips from below the green.

There is such a thing as maintaining a green in a way that puts it over the top. There is such a thing as setting up a green to be so hard that it no longer offers interesting and enjoyable challenges.

The 11th is a beautiful, well designed long par 3. It is a gorgeous hole. But setting its green speeds where they were the day I played does MacKenzie's hole a disservice.

Bob  

[Carl Rogers]

Seems like 9 and 11 both present a similar challenge with severely back to front sloping greens where long is dead.  Does this play as too repetitive during the round and too punishing, especially given that these two par 3's are only separated by one hole?

Was the penalty of not being able to keep putts on the green from above the hole MacKenzie's original intent? 

I'm all for a design that makes you identify a penal "do not hit it here" spot and then figuring out how to best attack while avoiding that location, but when that spot is anywhere on the green above the hole (especially if a false front eliminates a ground approach) and the penalty is a putt that won't stay on the putting surface, then I think it becomes too severe and takes the fun out of a hole. 

If Mac's writings on Golf Design are to taken and believed at face value, then they cannot be reconciled extreme green speed of this hole.  Improper green keeping but unfortunately succumbing to the "arms race of green speed" in the golf world.  Too bad.

[Brian Hilko]

 I love how the tee shot feels downhill but is really flat or even a bit uphill. I love the 11th green. It pushes the envelope. I just love trying to hit the front edge of that green and then placing my lag putt just under the hole. A par feels like a birdie on this one. That tier is unmerciful. I have watched many shots go a foot up that tier and roll all the way down the fairway.

[Padraig Dooley]

Padraig,
I beg to differ.
I dont know that many good players that are of the opinion that the game does not include the ablilty to putt.
I think that is a rather integral part of the game, what I think good players do not appreciate is when a course set up does not match what the architect planned as being a challenge...when modern green keepers do not understand what is playable and what is not..this green borders on the unplayable.
There are numerous stories of qulaity players in quality events putting off this green, picking up in disgust etc...that may suggest that the green is  a little "out there"
As for the green locale...I agree ideal, but the original design, did indeed have more green back right, which over time has been discarded into unuse.
A pin placement back there would br wonderful.

Michael, Hogan did say a putt should only be half a shot!!

However, I do accept your point.

Bob, I had to go to the dictionary for bromides!! I agree that too high a green speed means trouble for the hole.

[Mark Saltzman]

Hole 12: Par 4, 430 Yards




The 12th surprised me.  Though it was peaceful walking through the trees to get to the 12th tee, it is a long, uphill trek.  Not knowing what lay ahead of me, I expected something very dramatic given the uneasiness in this part of the routing.  I was/am disappointed with this hole, though I am open to hearing about its redeeming features (and I do understand that not every hole on a course needs be a '10' and the occasional breather is fine).

The tee shot is hit over a road (a feature that seems to be common at many of the world's great courses).  Almost unbelievably, the tree in the centre of the picture is in the left rough(!).  It really goes against one's instincts to play it as far right as is necessary.




The tree guarding the left side of the fairway is some 250 yards off the tee.  Anything in the fairway will have a clear view of the green.




A rather unintimidating approach.




A curious bunker found in the right rough 30 yards short of the green.  Using the Sean Arble test of 'what purpose does that bunker serve?', I think this bunker should go (but I would love to hear arguments for its staying).




The bunker guarding the right side of the green is a bad spot to miss.  With the trees growing out of the bunker, can you say "double hazard?"




The green slopes gently from front to back.  With the open green-front, the ground game is the obvious choice and missing just a bit long is not a problem.




The green as seen from the 13th tee.

[Paul Jones]

Mark,

I felt the same way, a little disappointed and the hole seemed out of place. It was like I was hitting into a field; however, the hole did get a lot better on the second shot.

I love this golf course, just not this hole.

[Mark Saltzman]

This tee shot at Crystal Downs...




Is similar to this tee shot at Old Town...




And even more similar to the second shot on the 4th at Old Town where the play is much farther right than one would think...

[Michael Wharton-Palmer]

My favourite part of the golf course, the next four holes are pure perfection to me.
Great teeshot here, that tree down the left being the perfect target for a nice soft peel into the middle of the fairway.
Options galore off the tee though...you can try and boom it down the right side and be rewarded with a shortershot into the green, or even hit three wood at the tree  , stay out of the rough and have a longer shot.
But the green is the brilliance of this hole, full of subletiies , tricks, eye decieving breaks...awesome!!!
The bunkering is exquisite the good Dr at his very best.
When I walked onto this green, it was the first hole I felt like I was playing a sandbelt green, with the proximity of the putting surface to the right hand bunker.
I hvae not played in Austarlia yet, but somehow this green made me feel like this was a taste.
The front to back incline is way more severe than evident from the fairway, just a brillaint green complex...great hole with better yet to come!!!!

[Mark Saltzman]

Michael,

I have no doubt that the subtlety/greatness of the 12th green are there and thy simply did not reveal themselves to me in one play.

But, what is so great about the bunkering? The bunker in the right tall grass? The bunker/trees double hazard?

[Michael Wharton-Palmer]

Mark, I love the way it blends into the green, leaving the most delicate bunker shot into a green that now slopes away from the player.
If the pin is placed anywhere on the right side of tghis green and you are bunkered...good luck getting anything within 20 feet, unless you have putted it out of the bunker..
the slopes on the green are superb, at one section one way, another section the other, but all sloping towards the back of the green.
The back third of the green is deceptively fast, once a putt or shot reaches that back third...you are over the green.
I just love the hole, it marks the begining of another change in course topography, now starts to resemble a Walton Heath or Sunningdale or perhaps more of a St Geroges Hill without the heather for the next few holes.
That is what I like so much about Crystal Downs it has so many course styles all within 18 holes..parkland to heathland even a little li9nksy feel with the fairway at 8...just a piece of property that to me is faultless.

[Mark Saltzman]

Bump.  I was hoping there would be further discussion of the 12th. Comments re the bunkering?

If not, hole 13 (which is awesome) will come tonight.

[Brent Carlson]

Mark,

On the 12th - I very much enjoyed the walk from 11 green to the 12th tee.  I freely admit that I'm an avid hiker and enjoy such things.  That being said it is the perfect transition to the next phase of the course.  Not to mention it is reflective of the idyllic nature of northern Michigan.  For me, golf in secluded places is best, and the transition walk from 11 - 12 exemplifies that.

Regarding the double hazard.  I hit into the "treed" bunker but I had a clear blast to the front pin.  After a flub that stayed in the bunker, I had another clear shot.  So perhaps it's not such a double hazard as originally thought.  The front to back nature of this green makes it unique on the course and I enjoy that.  The crafty player will surely take note and play the hole as designed.  Really like this hole...

[Mark Saltzman]

Hole 13: Par 4, 442 Yards (I think there's also a tee somewhere in the 480 yard range, maybe Tom or Brian can confirm).




Mr. Muller says this is by far "the most difficult par at Crystal Downs."  I agree.

The tee shot is one that requires precision.  The fairway is at an angle almost 45 degrees to the player with rough left and woods right.  The fairway cants significantly left-to-right.  Approaches from the left are near impossible.  As such, one must be on the right side of the fairway, but anything that misses the fairway right will be blocked out.  A fade up the left side of the fairway will work nicely.




A look at the fairway looking back toward the tee.  The cant of the fairway is very significant.  A fairway of reasonable width plays rather narrowly.




Tee shots that are too far right will either find this bunker, or the rough short of the bunker.  Anything short of the bunker will be blocked-out by the tree.





From the centre of the fairway, the approach to this green looks rather innocent.  It isn't.  The green is very small and its large slopes makes its effective area tiny.





This is one of the wildest greens I have ever seen.  The front and back portions of the green are separated by a massive ridge. Find the wrong side of the ridge and there is no way (I don't think) to keep the ball on the green putting to the other side. 

Playing to a front pin, Mr Muller recommends playing for the front edge of the green.  A chip up the hill from short of the green is much preferred to being long.

Conversely, playing to a back pin requires a shot that is hit deep into the green.  The back portion of the green slopes severely from left-to-right and many balls will collect at the back-right portion of the green leaving a (relatively) slow putt back to the hole.




Approaches must be played precisely, especially to the front portion of the green.  Anything just a tad right will kick with the general slope of the land and find these bunkers.  Mr Muller says they "are easy to roll into and difficult to recover from."




Though it is not obvious from the fairway, this bunker left of the green is the absolute worst spot to be.  There is no chance of finding the green from here.




A look back.  This hole is really a potential round ruiner (for the pencil and scorecard types).

[Brian Hilko]

The hole plays about 480 from the new back tee. I have never seen them use that tee when I have been there. The hole is hard enough already.

[Brian Cenci]

When pin is in front the best way to play the hole is go long into the back rough and chip back up to the pin and hope to get up and down for a par.  If you do get in the left greenside bunker best way to play it out is putt it from the bunker.  They usually have a few of the lips on that bunker flat so it can be done out of that bunker.

[Bill_McBride]

Funny story.  The only  easy par I made my only trip around Crystal Downs was 13!

There's some sort of speed slot down the right side.   My tee shot was 30 yards past the other guys who are both longer hitters.   Then I hit six iron to 10'.  Just missed the  putt from below the hole. 

If I had any idea how tough the hole was.......

[Mark Saltzman]

Bill,

I did the exact same thing!  Going into the round (like when I play any highly regarded course) I try to go in blind and not read much about it, preferring to learn about the course after.  I knew a few of the holes at Crystal... the 5th tee shot, the 7th green, the entire 8th (because of Peter's thread), 14 and 17.  I knew nothing about 13.  Didn't know about the giant ridge in the green, that's for sure!  And for some reason it was the only hole where I didn't look at the guide book.  I guess I was really excited to get 13 over with and get on to the famous 14th.  But, 13 is amazing!

[Michael Wharton-Palmer]

I put this hole into the category of my favourite par fours anywhere, certainly one of my top 5.
Everything about this hole exemplifies what is great about Crystal Downs...accuracy from the tee is required a demanding approach to a very demanding green.
When the pin is at the back of the green, you have to be at that back to have a chance, but just over the green is dead.
We used that new back tee and thehole was a solid drive and 5 iron for me...over the green and yep....dead!!!
The putting surface is wonderful Dr Mac...if you are putting from the wrong segment...very difficult to two putt.
Wonderful; bunkereing that collects shots that are even marginally offline into the green...just a great great hole.

[Mark Saltzman]

Hole 14: Par 3, 147 Yards




A straightforward short par-3 -- a nice respite after the brutish 13th.  If you're going to miss, then miss short as the green slopes severely from back-to-front.  The bunkering is a lesson in visual deception.   

From the tee, one can see a couple of bunkers, but it is not until you get closer to the green that one sees how many bunkers there are and how deep they are.






From 50 yards short of the green the bunkers short-left of the green come into view:




The bunkers short-left...




and short-right are very bad spots, requiring long carries to reach the putting surface.




And what looked like a tiny bunker pin-high and right of the green, is actually a large and deep bunker.  Another bad spot.




And the bunker that appeared to be short-left, actually extends the length of the green:




This pictures shows that the green crests at about the 3/4 point and the back 1/4 actually slopes away from the tee.




From just over the green it is obvious that the back 1/4 of the green slopes front-to-back.  This means if the pin is at the back, the play is to be long, BUT if the pin is anywhere short of the crest and you go long, you are faced with a REALLY HARD recovery.  You have to hit it hard enough to crest the hill, but soft enough that once it does, it doesn't run off the front of the green!




One last look back at the 14th green on the way to the 15th tee:

[Michael George]

Mark:

Thanks for this great thread.   Great pictures and commentary.  Really enjoyable for us that have not had the pleasure of playing there. 

[Tim Bert]

The style and the setting of the 14th is easily my favorite on the back nine. There are more challenging holes and probably "better" golf holes in that stretch but none as charming as this one. Beautiful.

[Padraig Dooley]

I saw some before and after pictures of the 14th once, pretty impressive tree removal. The depth of trees which are left and right used to continue all the way round the back of the green.

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