Crystal Downs CC (MacKenzie/Maxwell) - A Photo Tour - Hole 18 Posted

[Sean Leary]

That tree looks out of place, in pictures, anyway. Haven't been there.

[Bill_McBride]

I was one of the unhappy few who failed to make that carry, and unhappily watched my ball roll back down the hill like a short approach to a false front.  

From there I was really happy to make a bogey 5.  

[Tom_Doak]

Personally, I love the sixth hole more than the fifth, and maybe as much as the seventh, though not as much as the eighth!

I have not played it into the wind in a while, and most of the time nowadays I'm only playing from the middle tee.  From the back tee, into the wind, it's an awesome hole.  You have to hit a cracking drive to get up on top of the hole, and if you don't [which I usually can't], you are playing a 175-yard approach from the face of the fairway, blind up over the crest of the hill.  I've hit that shot successfully a couple of times, and I can still feel the joy.

The green is a chameleon, and I think it's the biggest green on the course.  Into the wind, you're just happy to get it on the dance floor and try to two-putt.  The rest of the time, with a short iron in your hands, you are thinking about putting it in the right quadrant, and if you don't you'll be happy to get away with a four.

The trees on both sides of the hole pre-date the course.  They are along an old road alignment, as are the two trees on #8, and possibly the tree on #5 as well ... the original nine-hole course stopped just short of that line, though I don't know if the road was moved further east down around #5 and #8 tee just before MacKenzie showed up, or sometime earlier.  At any rate, it's an interesting tidbit to MacKenzie's routing of the front nine -- I don't know if they moved the road to accommodate his ideas, or whether he just arrived at the right time and was lucky that they got the property extended as it was.

[Mark Saltzman]

How long is the carry to the top of the hill?  About 220 tips, 190 members?

[Nick_Christopher]

No. 6 is the sleeper on the front. I think the 4th green is the largest on the course with the 6th following, but it still provides a ton of variety depending on where the pin is located. 

I have debated the value of the tree on the right hand side on this board previously, and don't think it adds to the strategy of the hole. If the hay were short grass and the golfer were tempted to carry the scabs (especially from the back tee), the hole would be even better (!!).  I used to carry for a member who would play through the 7th fairway to gain a better angle to the green on the approach, underscoring this point. 

[JC Jones]

Mark,

Your picture showing the 6th green from the 2nd fairway is actually the 6th green from the 4th green.

I will echo Tom's comments that I think this hole is better than the 5th but I'm not as big a fan of the 5th as others.  For me, the premier stretch on the front nine is 6-9.  I love that the shorter hitter can play up and around the fairway while the longer hitter can challenge the scabs for a shorter approach shot.  The green here is, to me, very Maxwell in its internal rolls and I'm not sure I've walked a way with any 2-putts the times I've played it.

[Tom_Doak]

The green here is, to me, very Maxwell in its internal rolls

JC:  We have been in almost total agreement for a couple of days -- but, I've GOT to correct you on this one.

The sixth green at Crystal Downs is a classic MacKenzie green.  Don't look at the internal rolls ... look at how it's divided up into a series of soft bowls [and one not so soft bowl].  That's exactly the way MacKenzie illustrated most of his greens.

I have always felt that the first seven greens at Crystal Downs were more like MacKenzie's work, and the back nine were more like Maxwell's.  [Nos. 15 and 16 are probably the best examples of the classic "Maxwell rolls".]  The one time I played there with Bill Coore -- who is more familiar with Maxwell's work than anyone I know -- I told him that's what I thought, and he said he could see it that way.  This would coincide with the fact that the front nine was built first, and that if MacKenzie made a construction visit [which is still a matter of some dispute], he would have done so that first year.

[JC Jones]

Oh Tom, I knew it wouldn't last.

Given what you know of the relationship between MacKenzie and Maxwell and given that it is highly unlikely MacKenzie saw the course again until a few years later (Mike D. tells a story that he heard from the original greens keeper about Dr. Mac coming back and, of all things, not liking the location of the 7th green, which of course calls into question the Mac nature of the 7th green because I'm not sure the land would have allowed it anywhere else), how could Maxwell have built any "Mackenzie" greens?  Was he knowledgeable enough on Mac's work that he could have built a distinctly MacKenzie green? 

With respect to the 6th green, I see a lot of similarities with the 5th at Old Town, though I'd say that the 6th at CD is more tame than that, not having the really pronounced ridge through the front 2/3s.

[Tim Bert]

There's a fairway on the 6th hole at Crystal Downs?  I've always played it right of the tree at the bunker complex whether I meant to or not.  Seems like a safe enough play assuming that you can carry the bunkers and the pin isn't on the far right of the green.

[Mike Hendren]

  For me, the premier stretch on the front nine is 6-9. 

JC, I'd have to say the premier stretch on the front is 1 through 8.  A solid 10 on anybody's scale.

Bogey

[Anthony_Nysse]

There's a fairway on the 6th hole at Crystal Downs?  I've always played it right of the tree at the bunker complex whether I meant to or not.  Seems like a safe enough play assuming that you can carry the bunkers and the pin isn't on the far right of the green.

You mean like this.....

[Tim Bert]

I actually meant further right... not intentionally of course!

[Brian_Sleeman]

Right of the tree is fine if you can hit it at the green and carry it to the light rough (about 300 on the fly), but then you're probably either playing with a strong tailwind or on the white tee when you should be on the blue (if you're already on the blue, then good for you).

Otherwise, anything right of that tree runs a big risk of ending up in the tall stuff, and so I would advise is not the best play. 

The green house you can see in the distant tree line on the bluff is a good target off the tee for just about anyone, as the fairway will kick shots to the right, and if they're hit hard enough, will run down the hill and end up in the fairway to the left of Tony in his picture.

[Bill_McBride]

  For me, the premier stretch on the front nine is 6-9. 

JC, I'd have to say the premier stretch on the front is 1 through 8.  A solid 10 on anybody's scale.

Bogey

So #9 is a weak sister?   Tough crowd!

[JC Jones]

  For me, the premier stretch on the front nine is 6-9. 

JC, I'd have to say the premier stretch on the front is 1 through 8.  A solid 10 on anybody's scale.

Bogey

So #9 is a weak sister?   Tough crowd!

In my opinion, #9 is a phenomenal par 3.  The holes on the front 9 that are of less quality than the others, in my opinion, are 2,3 and 5.

[Peter Pallotta]

This is such a pleasant reminder of all the fine Par 4s.  I think after a couple of them I started to take them for granted, the gentle unobtrusive use of the land as it presents itself that characterized them. The first person I talked to after my round was Joe H, and I think I mentioned how much I liked the Par 3s and that the 8th was one of the few Par 5s that I had ever loved (most I don't even like).  I don't think I mentioned any of the Par 4s - but again, after a very short while I must've just realize that they were all going to be good in the most fundamental and old-fashioned way, and took them for granted.

Peter 

[Mike_DeVries]

Mike D. tells a story that he heard from the original greens keeper about Dr. Mac coming back and, of all things, not liking the location of the 7th green, which of course calls into question the Mac nature of the 7th green because I'm not sure the land would have allowed it anywhere else

JC,
It was an original worker on the construction, not the head greenkeeper.  What he said is that MacKenzie came back and wanted the green to go further to the right, elbowing up the valley towards the 6th tee.  MacKenzie's concept was a radically curved green and we know he was fond of such greens in many other locations after the 7th at the Downs.  Whether they finally agreed on the location chosen or Maxwell just did what he wanted, I do not know, but it is brilliant and one of the most unique holes in the world.
Mike

[ed_getka]

I love the specimen trees on some of the holes at CD and especially the 2 that frame this tee shot. The right tree gives you something to think about if you are an average golfer and adds some tension to the tee shot. Without the right tree I think most golfers would be a lot more relaxed on the tee. The slope on the fairway short of the trees doesn't have divots because any ball on that steep slope will roll most of the way down to the bottom of the slope unless you get lucky like Fred Couples on #12 at Augusta. The green is one of my favorites on the course. There is so much going on that you will still be discovering things after a dozen plays.

[Mark Saltzman]

Hole 7: Par 4, 335 Yards



Much like hole 5 where I knew what the tee shot looked like but not the approach, I knew what the green at the the 7th looked like, but knew nothing about the rest of the hole.


The tee offers two options.  The first is to lay-up to the upper fairway hitting a tee shot of no more than 210 yards.  From there the green is in full-view.  The other option is to drive over the crest of the hill to a lower fairway leaving nothing more than a 100 yard shot, but from here the view to the green is blind.  Pick your poison.

I found the tee shot misleading because of the severe depression to the right of the fairway (which is a really bad place to miss) and the hint of a curve in the fairway itself.  I thought the ideal line was at the right edge of the visible fairway, challenging the depression.  It's not, there is nothing but rough and a really tough angle into the green there.

The Tee shot.




A closer look.





The deep depression to the right of the fairway.





The approach from the upper fairway is from a hanging lie to one of the most unique greens in the world.  The bunkers benched into the hill are curious to me.  What purpose do they serve?  My guess is to penalize the player that overshoots the lower fairway.

Be sure to get your approach shot in the proper lobe of the green or you will have a rather interesting putt ahead of you.


The approach from the upper fairway.







The approach from the lower fairway is completely blind.




One of the most interesting and most fun greens you will ever see is the kidney-shaped 7th green at Crystal Downs.  Yes, it is possible to get a ball from the front of the green to the back using the slopes.  I'll bet I'm not the only person who spent 15 minutes messing around on this green before moving on to the 8th tee.  It's like a playground for golf nerds.


Green from front.




Green from 6th tee.




I noticed a small hump in the centre of the back portion of the green.  This little hump makes the back portion extremely difficult, almost like a little plateau.  I was told, however, that the very back pin position is rarely used.

Green from behind. 




Green from 8th tee.





Green from 8 fairway.

[ed_getka]

 The layup here shouldn't leave you a hanging lie unless you have tried to get too far to the end of the upper fairway. If you lay back and have about 135 in at worst you will have the slightest of downhill lies. The whole key is to take the layup seriously and LAY UP. Playing the hole the first time there is no way to know that unless someone who knows the course is with you. I find the hole most interesting when the pin is up front as that is a fairly shallow landing area and it is harder to stay out of that bunker with a front pin than it looks. Also a pin just past the corner on the upper tier is very hard to get close to due to the downslope off the front of the green that wants to take your ball to the back of the green which is gently sloping away from you at least halfway back. There are many ways to play recovery shots from around the green with all the slopes. A very fun hole and one that is more difficult than its yardage would lead you to believe.

[Mark Saltzman]

Ed, understood, but playing the hole for the first time it does not look like laying back is the play.  To me, it looks like the ideal place to be as long up the right side.  From the tee it looks like the left tree will block anything hit too short off the tee and that the green opens up from the right side.  Plus, I figured the lower plateau of the fairway was on the right side (which as you know, it's not). 

After a very good drive challenging the right side I was left with a short, but blind shot over a tree and from a terrible angle.  Now I know what to do for next time.  Or at least what not to do.

[Michael Wharton-Palmer]

busy ion the weeknd so back to number six briefly........what about the knob in the centre of the green that is o friggin' cool.....I was so excited walking onto that green, just loved it....
If you like six green then obvioulst number seven has really got to get the juices flowing.
What a super hole, again a wonderful short par four, and the green...well simply beyond words shear brilliance.
I would love to play the hole to a back pin....

[ed_getka]

Ed, understood, but playing the hole for the first time it does not look like laying back is the play.  To me, it looks like the ideal place to be as long up the right side.  From the tee it looks like the left tree will block anything hit too short off the tee and that the green opens up from the right side.  Plus, I figured the lower plateau of the fairway was on the right side (which as you know, it's not). 

After a very good drive challenging the right side I was left with a short, but blind shot over a tree and from a terrible angle.  Now I know what to do for next time.  Or at least what not to do.

Mark,
    That was why I pointed out that there is no way to know the play off the tee the first time unless someone who knows the course really well tells what to do with the tee shot. CD is a course that someone with good knowledge of the course could save a first-timer quite a few strokes. There are places you learn that you just don't want to be at CD. I'm glad you had the good fortune to see the course, it is one of my favorites.

[JC Jones]

JC,
It was an original worker on the construction, not the head greenkeeper.  What he said is that MacKenzie came back and wanted the green to go further to the right, elbowing up the valley towards the 6th tee.  MacKenzie's concept was a radically curved green and we know he was fond of such greens in many other locations after the 7th at the Downs.  Whether they finally agreed on the location chosen or Maxwell just did what he wanted, I do not know, but it is brilliant and one of the most unique holes in the world.
Mike

Mike,

Thanks for the clarification.  I agree the 7th is unique but also one of the greatest holes in the world.

Where are some of the other greens built after CD that are of a similar nature?

[Sean_A]

Mark

Thanks for this tour.  It would seem every Michigander and his third cousin has seen this place except me. 

Is anybody else getting the impression that these lone trees are used a bit too much?  I looked at the opening six and wondered, but the 7th definitely pushed me over the edge.  I really don't understand the right tree.  Why is it there - in the middle of a bunker which I wonder why is there as well? Some of the details of this course have me quite perplexed. 

The green looks to be a stunner.  I think I can see how one can get from front right to the back tier, but man I wouldn't want that putt as it must be a very low success rate having to hit hard over the right bunker shoulder to hold the line and hope for turn off that left mid-green wing.  Does anybody think this may be a better hole if it were shorter - more tempting to go for it?

Does the course play as narrow as it looks? 

Ciao