Budget for golf club in the UK

[Duncan Cheslett]

Most clubhouses are already there ofcourse and most clubhouses are a burden.

Our house made a loss last year. Yet suggest that the operation is contracted out to a third party in return for a  rental income and virtually all members will point out that the 'profits' from the bar would then be given away!

 

[Tom Kelly]

Jon - I think most new builds DO just need a large pro-shoppy cum servery for a beer, hot drinks, pies, sandwiches and a toilet facilty, the secret is to man it with 1 person if you can. Most clubhouses are already there ofcourse and most clubhouses are a burden.

It would be interesting to do a survey how many different players competed in competitions in any one year, MY GUESS would be 300 here, and how many members who have handicaps are now inactive. The active/inactive idea was crazy, having a handicap is a way to retain a member, taking his handicap away is another reason he might GO NOMAD.

I agree about the handicap system, with going away for uni for a few years and then traveling abroad for a year afterwards it meant I hadn't played a club competition for a few years so my handicap lapsed. I didn't want to just hand in any old cards quickly to get a handicap again as I was off 3 before but not having played much in the last few years, it took me a while to get going back to a similar level consistently, but on any given day I could still shoot a decent round. I didn't want to hand in cards quickly to get myself a handicap of say 9 then go and shoot 2 over in a comp as no doubt lots of people at the club who knew who I was would think I was cheating the system to win a few prizes, which is absurd but would have no doubt been the case. I would have been far happier playing off my old handicap and shooting net 80 a few times. I can understand the theory behind lapsed and inactive handicaps to stop bandits but in my case it is ridiculous.

Essentially this has meant I haven't been bothered to make the effort of handing in cards to get a new handicap so I haven't be able to enter any competitions or play for any of the teams. Playing these comps and team matches would have kept me around the club far more and meant I spent more in the clubhouse and shop etc.. I have gone back to the club I was a member of for years and years and now feel like an outsider as I can't play in the comps, which in turn has now made me more apathetic about playing the those comps as to be honest I quite enjoy just knocking it about with a few friends whenever I want rather than set Saturdays. Plus I avoid the hassle and circus that is golf club politics and being forced to play with guys you always want to avoid on the draw-sheet, every club has them!

[Mark_Rowlinson]

Thomas, You can play in medal and stableford competitions simply to get your three cards in, as long as they are qualifying competitions. Of course you can't win. As soon as you have entered your third card you are once again active. But you have a handicap committee. They have the power to reinstate you at your old handicap if they want, just as they can adjust handicaps at the end of the season.

My younger son's handicap of 9 lapsed, largely because he works Monday-Friday and plays football on a Saturday. But he's able and welcome to play in Sunday social events in which it doesn't matter if his handicap is active or inactive. The majority of those playing in these social events only play social golf and don't bother to maintain a handicap.

I have only ever been asked to produce a handicap certificate in Denmark and Holland. I don't have one - I don't need it at my own club where the computer recognises my membership card. Royal Liverpool, Formby, Royal Birkdale, Royal County Down, Wentworth, Swinley and many others I've played as a single player without even proof of membership of a club.

We have a reciprocal scheme with a number of clubs in the midlands and north west and none of those has ever asked for proof of membership when I claim my 50% green fee. I am always made most welcome. 

[Tom Kelly]

Mark, It wasn't just that my handicap had become inactive, which prevented me from winning comps. My handicap had completely lapsed and the club had destroyed any records of my old handicap as they had cleared the computer system. When I went away for the year the club changed my membership status to prevent me having to play full fees and I think this is why my handicap lapsed.

My club then told me that I had to hand in 3 cards played from the yellow tombstones to get a handicap and that I wasn't able to play in the comps without a handicap. All of the comps are played off the white tees. I thought it sounded strange when I was told, but just took that as the club rules.

[Andy Stamm]

"The VAT situation with newer clubs against the older clubs who are VAT exempt of their golf subscriptions makes it even more difficult to trade fairly...."

Can someone explain Adrian's quote to me. I understand VAT, but I'd love to know what is exempt and why? And how that adversly effects new clubs.

Thanks.

[Sean_A]

Andy

I am not quite sure what Adrian is referring to.  Perhaps if a club is proprietary owned than members' dues are susceptible to VAT.  For member owned clubs the dues are definitely not susceptible to VAT.

Ciao

[Adrian_Stiff]

Basically the goverment have decided that member owned clubs are not for profit and do not have to charge Vat (20%) on their subscriptions, but a private golf club ie one owned by an individual or company is 'for profit' and they have to add Vat to the subscription. Almost certainly any new golf course would be 'for profit'.

In real terms the member owned clubs do make a profit and distribute their profits by subsidising their lower subscription.

This creates a distortion of trade between the two methods of operation. It means that one club can keep 100% of its subscription fee and another can only keep 83.33% of the money, the surplus passed on to the goverment. Everything is at high court at the moment and the likely cost is that the goverment could pay out an estimated £2,000,000,000 in refunds to private clubs and in a further case that they have already lost and is in appeal, that relates to Vat being charged on visitor fees. A ruling by the high court ruled that No Vat should be charged on green fees at members clubs. In my opinion whilst this appears on the face of it to create even further distortion it would almost certainly mean the goverment could not possibly win their case that for profit clubs should charge Vat. Subscription and members is one thing but visitor fee is open play.

It all stems from European law and the directives that VAT on sport should be no more than 5%. In about 1990 Many UK member clubs had Subscription Vat money refunded I think from 1971.

[Andy Stamm]

Adrian and Sean,

Thanks. The new clubs not likely being member-owned was the missing piece of the puzzle.

Have there been any prominent (or otherwise) new member-owned clubs opened in the UK in the last 10 or 20 years? European Club, Loch Lomond?

[Adrian_Stiff]

Andy as far as I am aware, those two clubs are private. The European is owned by Pat Ruddy and his family and Loch Lomond would be owned by individuals with some sort of equity stakes.

Probably the only way a new club could be exempt is if an owner left a club in his will to the membership.

I also think you could own the golf course and the rent it to the membership, that way you could gain an exemption but the members must own the golf club and the strong rights associated with the landlord and tenant act blows this out of the water for many golf course owners as the course owner cant be associated with the tenanted bit...if that makes sense.

[Ulrich Mayring]

You are correct to flag up the German example. It is a solution that works well in Germany where most people have no problem being coerced into conforming to a system.

I am not one to judge whether this system works or not (and, for that matter, what a working system would even look like). I am just reporting on what is being done here.

I suspect if you were to try this here in Britain it would end in a series of high profile anti discrimination court cases.

Well, that route has obviously been investigated and there is absolutely no legal grounds for anti discriminatory action. Golf clubs are private entities and entitled to let anyone onto their property or not - all according to their own set of rules. They could even choose to exclude women, as several anglo-saxon clubs do without any legal problems whatsoever. As it is, some German clubs are charging higher greenfees for "unorganised" golfers and a few don't let them play at all. Foreigners, who will be hard pressed to present any official German golf association logo, will often be treated like 2nd class citizens. And there is absolutely nothing you can do about it - except one thing: go take your business to a club without such rules. Those clubs are, however, becoming fewer and fewer.

Ulrich

[Jon Wiggett]

Well, that route has obviously been investigated and there is absolutely no legal grounds for anti discriminatory action. Golf clubs are private entities and entitled to let anyone onto their property or not - all according to their own set of rules. They could even choose to exclude women, as several anglo-saxon clubs do without any legal problems whatsoever.
Not quite. A club, even a private one is not at liberty to break the law.

As it is, some German clubs are charging higher greenfees for "unorganised" golfers and a few don't let them play at all. Foreigners, who will be hard pressed to present any official German golf association logo, will often be treated like 2nd class citizens.

Indeed. I witnessed the flip side of this last year where a DGV member was charged double the GF because he came from a club that did that to non DGV. His face was beetroot red when he left the clubhouse

[Ulrich Mayring]

Well, there is no law that forbids you to discriminate on the basis of ethnicity, gender, age or whatnot against who you let into your house. Private property is private property, also in the case of private golf clubs.

Obviously, with municipal or public courses this would be different, but there are only a handful in Germany.

Ulrich

[Adam Lawrence]

Andy as far as I am aware, those two clubs are private. The European is owned by Pat Ruddy and his family and Loch Lomond would be owned by individuals with some sort of equity stakes.

Loch Lomond was proprietary, but was bought by its members as a result of the financial difficulties of the Lyle Anderson company. So it's member-owned now, but I'm not sure of the exact terms, and whether any new members would be full equity.

[Adrian_Stiff]

Adam - I dont know the terms either, but if they stumped up cash for the buyout which I am sure they did it would seem strange if they all gifted it back which is what you need to do to qualify, so I suspect there must be some form of money protection. Its quite hard to see a situation where people would put a lot of money into a new golf club without some sort of share certificate or a document that is 'willable'.

[Mark Chaplin]

The "poor" old Loch Lomond members paid out many thousands to join, lost all their money and had to pay again to buy out the receivers.

The club was never built as a member club.