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Tommy Williamsen

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Raynor's Prize Dogleg
« on: October 06, 2011, 12:02:19 PM »
I was reading George Bahto's wonderful book on CB Macdonald and came across something called "Raynor's Prize Dogleg." It is a long par four with with cross bunkers just short of the green.  It looks like an awesome hole.  He calls it a par four but a bogey six.  He adds that most of the holes have been softened and none remain intact.  
 
Are their any contemporary models existing?
Where there is no love, put love; there you will find love.
St. John of the Cross

"Deep within your soul-space is a magnificent cathedral where you are sweet beyond telling." Rumi

paul cowley

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Re: Raynor's Prize Dogleg
« Reply #1 on: October 06, 2011, 10:24:12 PM »
I don't know Tommy but it would work well on at least two par fives and long fours on most courses played today as oppossed to adding length and new back tees.
paul cowley...golf course architect/asgca

Mac Plumart

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Raynor's Prize Dogleg
« Reply #2 on: October 06, 2011, 10:25:13 PM »
Isn't there one at Shoreacres?  15, maybe.
Sportsman/Adventure loving golfer.

Michael Robin

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Re: Raynor's Prize Dogleg
« Reply #3 on: October 07, 2011, 01:33:10 AM »
Someone who knows this topic very well suggested to me that the 9th hole at MPCC-Dunes was "Raynor's Prized Dogleg" on a par 5. I always thought that was "Long," but he showed me an old aerial and the shape of the green and angle of the approach looked like he was really on to something. Would that Someone please speak up and elaborate?

There is such an amazing Raynor lying dormant there at MPCC. I so hope the membership decides to try and recover his work.

BigEdSC

Re: Raynor's Prize Dogleg
« Reply #4 on: October 07, 2011, 10:49:10 AM »
15 at Yeamans Hall. 

Before Tom Doak redid the greens in 1998, it was played as a short par-5.  After the renovation, it was converted to a par 4.  I don't know if were cross bunkers, they probably existed at one time, but currently there are bunkers on the shoulders of the hole approaching the green, with deep bunkers on each side of the green.  At one time, it was the toughest hole on the couse, but with some tweekings of other holes on the course, it's now one of the toughest.

Ronald Montesano

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Raynor's Prize Dogleg
« Reply #5 on: October 07, 2011, 08:31:11 PM »
The card at Fox Chapel in Pittsburgh lists #16 as a(n) RPD. It comes right before the Biarritz 17th. I remember the hole playing thus.
Coming in 2024
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George_Bahto

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Raynor's Prize Dogleg
« Reply #6 on: October 07, 2011, 08:54:45 PM »
Michael -  I submitted a full critique on MPCC Dunes -  a number of months ago in which I identified the bones of the 9th as what I thought was a Raynor version of his Prize Dog-Leg including the rarely seen "fish-hooked green. Could be one of the best holes on the course if restored properly.
If a player insists on playing his maximum power on his tee-shot, it is not the architect's intention to allow him an overly wide target to hit to but rather should be allowed this privilege of maximum power except under conditions of exceptional skill.
   Wethered & Simpson

George_Bahto

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Re: Raynor's Prize Dogleg
« Reply #7 on: October 07, 2011, 08:59:26 PM »
In its purest form the hole is a very long par-4 with diagonal hazards both off the tee as well as diagonal hazarding 30 - 50 yards short of the green - add to this the fish-hooked green and you have a great hole
If a player insists on playing his maximum power on his tee-shot, it is not the architect's intention to allow him an overly wide target to hit to but rather should be allowed this privilege of maximum power except under conditions of exceptional skill.
   Wethered & Simpson

Bob_Huntley

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Re: Raynor's Prize Dogleg
« Reply #8 on: October 08, 2011, 01:27:57 PM »
George Bahto wrote,

"Michael -  I submitted a full critique on MPCC Dunes -  a number of months ago in which I identified the bones of the 9th as what I thought was a Raynor version of his Prize Dog-Leg including the rarely seen "fish-hooked green. Could be one of the best holes on the course if restored properly. In its purest form the hole is a very long par-4 with diagonal hazards both off the tee as well as diagonal hazarding 30 - 50 yards short of the green - add to this the fish-hooked green and you have a great hole."

George didn't mention that from the tippy tips the hole measures but 500 yards. Today's bombers however can still come to grief in the dunes on the right and take a bundle.

I have played the hole with George Knudson, D.Watson, Nick Price, Bill Rodgers and some lesser lights and the first time they played the hole there was nary a birdie on the card. Second time was a different story. It is the best short par five on the Peninsula bar none.

Bob
 
 
 
 
 

George_Bahto

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Raynor's Prize Dogleg
« Reply #9 on: October 08, 2011, 08:40:48 PM »
The 9th hole at MPCC Dunes

here is the approach - sandy water all the way down the hole

   

on the fish-hooked green you will see Sir Bob Hundley who was kind enuf to come out to visit with me that day


If a player insists on playing his maximum power on his tee-shot, it is not the architect's intention to allow him an overly wide target to hit to but rather should be allowed this privilege of maximum power except under conditions of exceptional skill.
   Wethered & Simpson

Tiger_Bernhardt

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Raynor's Prize Dogleg
« Reply #10 on: October 09, 2011, 11:12:23 PM »
Who did the restoration at Mountain Lake and who is the architect on retainer now? I actually thought the 13th at Mountain Lake sounded like this type of hole but does not have a fish hook green.

Jimmy Muratt

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Raynor's Prize Dogleg
« Reply #11 on: October 10, 2011, 12:14:39 PM »
Tiger,

Brian Silva did the restoration of Mountain Lake in 2002, I'm not sure who is consulting now.

George_Bahto

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Raynor's Prize Dogleg
« Reply #12 on: October 10, 2011, 01:52:16 PM »
Most clubs eliminated the Raynor DL hole because of the cross hazards being too difficult for their members, or the hole was too difficult a par-4 (they often changed to a par five or most the hole shorter and keeping it a par-4), and in most cases they didn’t “understand” the concept.

I don’t of a (even) decent version remaining.

The two best ones that were built were the original, the 6th at Lido and the 9th at Ocean Links (NLE).



The biggest problem on the original hole was the compulsory carry over the waste area to reach the green in regulation
If a player insists on playing his maximum power on his tee-shot, it is not the architect's intention to allow him an overly wide target to hit to but rather should be allowed this privilege of maximum power except under conditions of exceptional skill.
   Wethered & Simpson

Alex Lagowitz

Re: Raynor's Prize Dogleg
« Reply #13 on: October 10, 2011, 09:16:49 PM »
The 15th hole at Francis Byrne (orginally Essex County CC West Course), was a great version of the Raynor Prize Dog Leg
Bobby Jones once made a 15 and called it one of the hardest par 4s in the world
almost all of the cross bunkers are removed, but you can still see how hard it could have once been

At Essex County CC today, the only hole I can think of that could have potentially been a Raynor Dleg would be 17, but maybe George Bahto can clarify.

Tommy Williamsen

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Raynor's Prize Dogleg
« Reply #14 on: October 10, 2011, 10:38:36 PM »
The more I think about this hole the more I like it.  Isn't it a shame that we need to dumb down courses and lose such good holes.  I have played holes with cross bunkers but never a hole like this one.  There should be at least one that exists.
Where there is no love, put love; there you will find love.
St. John of the Cross

"Deep within your soul-space is a magnificent cathedral where you are sweet beyond telling." Rumi

David Cronheim

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Raynor's Prize Dogleg
« Reply #15 on: October 11, 2011, 04:54:24 PM »
I was a big fan of the Prize Dog Leg at Yeaman's Hall. It's a shame, but modern equipment has rendered the cross bunkering obsolete on most courses. Unfortunately, Raynor's designs don't seem as adaptable to modern technology as some other early, great architects like Ross and Tillinghast. Just look at what the pro's did to the Old White (yes a CB Macdonald, but same idea). It's a shame, but new equipment makes a lot of his more interesting features either too easy or not workable because of a shorter club (e.g. a redan or biarritz shot).
Check out my golf law blog - Tee, Esq.

George_Bahto

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Raynor's Prize Dogleg
« Reply #16 on: October 11, 2011, 08:55:53 PM »
Here is the Seth Raynor / Charles Banks concept for the 15th at Essex County. It is a long Par-4 dog-leg left.

Only one bunker ended up in the DL corner and either the forward bunkers were never pub in because of the club thinking it too hard.



Alex, yes this is the best hole on best of the course, even sans bunkering. I played that hole for 17 years when this was my home course. I wish we could have had the full bunkering plan.

Alex, the 17th on the East course is not one of this genre. It i a two shot reversed Redan - very similar to the 12th at Fishers Island

If a player insists on playing his maximum power on his tee-shot, it is not the architect's intention to allow him an overly wide target to hit to but rather should be allowed this privilege of maximum power except under conditions of exceptional skill.
   Wethered & Simpson

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re: Raynor's Prize Dogleg
« Reply #17 on: October 11, 2011, 09:12:06 PM »
George:

Just for fun, I will ask the Sean Arble question.  Defend the need for each of those bunkers -- and, if you had to cut it to two or three, which would they be?

Paul Jones

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Raynor's Prize Dogleg
« Reply #18 on: October 11, 2011, 09:23:08 PM »
The Par 5 (16th I think) at Chicago Golf Club is called Raynors Prize.
Paul Jones
pauljones@live.com

Mike Cirba

Re: Raynor's Prize Dogleg
« Reply #19 on: October 11, 2011, 09:45:03 PM »
George.

Is my memory failing or isn't there a pretty darn good one on the back nine at Francis Byrne or Hendricks Field?

George_Bahto

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Raynor's Prize Dogleg
« Reply #20 on: October 11, 2011, 10:16:37 PM »
Mike this is the one at Francis Byrne - there is no example at Hendricks Field
If a player insists on playing his maximum power on his tee-shot, it is not the architect's intention to allow him an overly wide target to hit to but rather should be allowed this privilege of maximum power except under conditions of exceptional skill.
   Wethered & Simpson

Tiger_Bernhardt

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Re: Raynor's Prize Dogleg
« Reply #21 on: October 11, 2011, 10:36:34 PM »
Thanks Jimmy

George_Bahto

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Re: Raynor's Prize Dogleg
« Reply #22 on: October 11, 2011, 10:55:16 PM »
Tom, first let me explain the topo of the hole

Fairly sharp rise to the dogleg - the uphill carry in the middle of the first diagonal set of two bunkers is 220 yds, with no forward tee on this hole for all the years I played it and an uneven lie in the fairway for you second.

The left bunker at the corner is at perfect yardage and cuts down all but long hitters from cutting the dog leg ..... too risky a shot to cut the dog-leg anyhow because, not shown on this drawing are the branches of a very large tree and large trees continue down the entire left side of the hole beyond the corner all the way to the green. This is  where Bobby Jones got in trouble - he got on the left side of the tree line where the land is WELL below regular fairway - you can be 20 feet down in that area. From there you can hardly clear (over) the large trees and the line of tree trunks is hard to "thread" a ball thru.

So the left dog-leg area bunker MUST stay!

..............   However: that center bunker in the first set is partial key to the true strategy of the Raynor Prize Dog-Leg design, so looking at it from that perspective, that middle bunker at the crest of the hill is very important for this style hole.

..... another “however”: I never saw that center bunker while playing there in the late 50's, 60's and early 70's. I doubt if the club ever let him put that bunker in (on the upper (East) course, Raynor and Banks offered about 130 bunkers on the original plan and the club only let them put in less than 80, if I remember correctly)

This is a tricky drive for a good player. He should hit a draw, He NEEDS a long dive for this killer par-4 but if he doesn’t draw the ball he ends up in the bunker on the far side, going thru the fairway - either in the bunker or thru the tree line on the other side of the fairway.

That bunker was NEVER put in but the tree line served the same purpose

Once you’ve turned the dog-leg the rest of the fairway is level to a perched up, bunkerless green. That large green was very hard to hit and back left pins were near impossible to get to - very steep falloff to the if you miss the green left. It was sort of like 17-TOC: play your second to the right front and hope to get up and down. The green is about three feet above the fairway on the direct line of play (I think they put in some sort of Redan-like bunker in that inside corner of the green in later) - the hole needed NO bunker around the green.

Note in my drawing the lines around the green are fall-offs, not bunkering.

The 3 bunkers short of the green: I drew their positioning as they appeared on their concept plan but I think they would be perfect if they were a continuous set of three crossbunkers that were about 40 or so yards short of the green.

As far as I know those three bunkers were never built!  Too bad

Balls hit over the shallow (front to back) green fell off to a bad lie and there was  cart path there also. Very few balls went over this green - esp on the second shot.

4 was a great score and you could often win the hole with bogey.

So in all when I played the hole and I think even before, there was just a bunker at the corner of the dogleg in the edge of the rough - actually I think for a while we has a set of two at the corner for a while, none in the fairway.         

Pat Mucci played this hole many, many times and I hope he will chime in on its greatness.

My explanation does not do it proper justice.
If a player insists on playing his maximum power on his tee-shot, it is not the architect's intention to allow him an overly wide target to hit to but rather should be allowed this privilege of maximum power except under conditions of exceptional skill.
   Wethered & Simpson

Gene Greco

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Re: Raynor's Prize Dogleg
« Reply #23 on: October 12, 2011, 10:20:37 AM »
     6th at Southampton Golf Club
"...I don't believe it is impossible to build a modern course as good as Pine Valley.  To me, Sand Hills is just as good as Pine Valley..."    TOM DOAK  November 6th, 2010

George_Bahto

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Raynor's Prize Dogleg
« Reply #24 on: October 12, 2011, 02:50:11 PM »
close call Gene -

but according to the original Seth RAYNOR plan, which I'm sure you've seen, the 6th was drawn by him as a non-fairway dog-leg left at a mere 408-410-yards and I have one version showing a bunker well in the left rough at the turn dog-leg - the aerial and the Raynor plan shows no bunker at the dogleg.   

This is too short for the RPDog-Leg and there was not the prototypical 2-set cross-hazards

My oldest scorecard named the holes;

Example - the 1st was called Charles H. Sabin after their famous benefactor.

Most of the hole names were generic-local names like; Squawhill, Lily Pond and such.

The 6th you spoke about was called “Briars” so that doesn’t help-

even the Biarritz was called (the infamous) “Hen-Coop” as a inside joke.

My original Raynor drawing is very faint and will not scan well.
If a player insists on playing his maximum power on his tee-shot, it is not the architect's intention to allow him an overly wide target to hit to but rather should be allowed this privilege of maximum power except under conditions of exceptional skill.
   Wethered & Simpson

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