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David_Tepper

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Any feedback on San Luis Obispo CC? (SLO, Calif.)
« on: October 05, 2011, 01:04:55 PM »
Just wondering if anyone has any input on San Luis Obispo CC. I played their once, probably 20 years ago, and my memory of the course is rather dim. I have heard the course has/is undergoing some upgrade work.

Neal_Meagher

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Re: Any feedback on San Luis Obispo CC? (SLO, Calif.)
« Reply #1 on: October 05, 2011, 02:51:12 PM »
Hi David,

As a matter of fact, for the past few months Gib Papazian and I have been working on a complete bunker renovation (and one green replacement) for SLO CC.  Interestingly, it is the 3rd consecutive Bert Stamps original course from the 50's I have reworked the bunkers on and with, coincidentally, the same builder.  But there is more of Gib's imprint on this one than the previous two where I was able to work with another golf writer, John Sheehan.  Always open to working with those who are smarter than I am.

SLO CC was built in 1957 on rolling land near the airport and was originally wide open but now is tree-lined (working on that), has some houses surrounding it and some really beautiful vineyards which we are trying to feature by, again, getting some of the trees out of the way.  The main purpose of the renovation is that the bunkers were just worn out, the faces were too steep, the shapes too ovoid and characterless and were overly prone to washing out during rain events.

The bunker work is going a long way to improve the course as we are not simply replacing a bunker where one was existing before the work.  Instead, we analyzed which ones were the worst wash-out victims, mostly due to large areas of greens feeding slopes directly into the bunkers, then removed those bunkers.  In their place a we built a series of close-cut turf (all kikuyu there) ridges and hollows into which balls now feed thereby creating a new variation on recovery shots there.

I will endeavor to post a few before and after shots after I figure out how.............
« Last Edit: October 07, 2011, 06:38:24 PM by Neal_Meagher »
The purpose of art is to delight us; certain men and women (no smarter than you or I) whose art can delight us have been given dispensation from going out and fetching water and carrying wood. It's no more elaborate than that. - David Mamet

www.nealmeaghergolf.com

Tim Leahy

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Re: Any feedback on San Luis Obispo CC? (SLO, Calif.)
« Reply #2 on: October 05, 2011, 02:57:27 PM »
The orignal designer was Bert Stamps who also did one of my favorite courses, Rancho Murieta North. There is nothing on their web site about work being done, but the pictures look like they planted trees. Another site indicated they had kikuyu greens and fairways so maybe they are changing that.

http://sanluisobispo.memberstatements.com/tour/tours.cfm?tourid=23087
I love golf, the fightin irish, and beautiful women depending on the season and availability.

David_Tepper

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Re: Any feedback on San Luis Obispo CC? (SLO, Calif.)
« Reply #3 on: October 05, 2011, 02:59:51 PM »
Neal -

Thanks for your response and glad to know the project there is in such capable hands.
Would love to see any before/after pics you are able to post.
Good luck with the project.

DT
 

Mike Benham

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Re: Any feedback on San Luis Obispo CC? (SLO, Calif.)
« Reply #4 on: October 05, 2011, 11:36:25 PM »
I will endeavor to post a few before and after shots after I figure out how.............

Delegate ...



This is the 570 yard downhill dogleg left par 5 1st hole.  This sketch was presented to the club to a sense of what a difference it would make to remove the trees.  As you will note, the club choose not to add the fairway bunker idea.




Here are before and after pictures showing the approach into the 1st green which shows the front left greenside bunker rebuilt and an existing cedar and eucalyptus removed from behind to open up a view of the vineyard and a new bunker built into the hillside beyond the green. 








« Last Edit: October 05, 2011, 11:57:40 PM by Mike Benham »
"... and I liked the guy ..."

Mike Benham

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Re: Any feedback on San Luis Obispo CC? (SLO, Calif.)
« Reply #5 on: October 06, 2011, 12:03:59 AM »
Before and after of the 376 yard, slightly uphill, par 4 4th hole.  We rebuilt the right and left fairway bunkers, the right greenside bunker and replaced the front left greenside bunker with a fronting ridge that deflects shots instead of the wash-out prone bunker that used to be there.
 



"... and I liked the guy ..."

Neal_Meagher

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Re: Any feedback on San Luis Obispo CC? (SLO, Calif.)
« Reply #6 on: October 06, 2011, 01:38:03 PM »
Mike,

Thanks for posting the pics.  I will try to get some more up on some of the holes that are now finished.
The purpose of art is to delight us; certain men and women (no smarter than you or I) whose art can delight us have been given dispensation from going out and fetching water and carrying wood. It's no more elaborate than that. - David Mamet

www.nealmeaghergolf.com

Mike Benham

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Re: Any feedback on San Luis Obispo CC? (SLO, Calif.)
« Reply #7 on: October 06, 2011, 06:13:05 PM »

This is the 5th hole, a downhill at 543 yard par 5.  A 4,000 square foot bunker was removed from the right greenside and a smaller carry bunker was built about 70 yards out on the right.  Additionally, the ground was rumpled between this carry bunker and the green so that those who are going to go for it really need to think about the consequences of ending up on an uneven lie.  The left greenside bunker was wrapped more around the front of the green to compensate for the loss of the right greenside bunker.
 





"... and I liked the guy ..."

Lynn_Shackelford

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Re: Any feedback on San Luis Obispo CC? (SLO, Calif.)
« Reply #8 on: October 07, 2011, 11:43:13 AM »
I have only played this course once, but I remember well the 9th, a goofy hole is the best I can say about it.  I am waiting to see if it can or was fixed.  The other fixes look positive.

It must be kept in mind that the elusive charm of the game suffers as soon as any successful method of standardization is allowed to creep in.  A golf course should never pretend to be, nor is intended to be, an infallible tribunal.
               Tom Simpson

Kalen Braley

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Re: Any feedback on San Luis Obispo CC? (SLO, Calif.)
« Reply #9 on: October 07, 2011, 12:28:27 PM »
That course looks very familiar from the movie Sideways.  I wonder if it was used for it?

Neal_Meagher

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Re: Any feedback on San Luis Obispo CC? (SLO, Calif.)
« Reply #10 on: October 07, 2011, 12:44:00 PM »
Hi Lynn,

The 9th is indeed different owing to the creation of a water treatment/irrigation lake some years back.  Originally it was a long uphill par 4 to a small green right by the clubhouse but is now a 333 yard hole with a lay-up from the tee followed by a pitch to the green.

That green was rebuilt about a dozen years ago and was somewhat out of character with the rest of the course and so it was the only one we totally reconstructed.  We will get some shots of that posted here soon so you can see for yourself if it did improve things.
« Last Edit: October 11, 2011, 06:00:07 PM by Neal_Meagher »
The purpose of art is to delight us; certain men and women (no smarter than you or I) whose art can delight us have been given dispensation from going out and fetching water and carrying wood. It's no more elaborate than that. - David Mamet

www.nealmeaghergolf.com

Mike Benham

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Re: Any feedback on San Luis Obispo CC? (SLO, Calif.)
« Reply #11 on: October 07, 2011, 01:15:27 PM »
The 8th hole, 155 yards, before and after.  The single front and single back bunkers were rebuilt into pairs of bunkers and the back right of the green was reworked / reshaped.






 
The 333 yard par 4 9th hole, before and after, is the only one where Neal’s team completely redesigned / rebuilt the green complex.  The old green had been rebuilt in the late 90's to no one's satisfaction as it was too small, flat and wasn’t consistent in design with the other green complexes.   The new green was moved 8 yards closer to the pond, lowered and a tier was added, along with a few little wrinkles to spice up putting.  The ridge to the right that obscured the view of the green was cut away and that material was pushed to the lower left to balance out the entire complex.







« Last Edit: October 07, 2011, 01:38:13 PM by Mike Benham »
"... and I liked the guy ..."

Tim Leahy

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Re: Any feedback on San Luis Obispo CC? (SLO, Calif.)
« Reply #12 on: October 07, 2011, 02:10:05 PM »
That course looks very familiar from the movie Sideways.  I wonder if it was used for it?

I beileve the golf shots on that movie were shot at the River Course at the Alisal near Solvang.
I love golf, the fightin irish, and beautiful women depending on the season and availability.

Lynn_Shackelford

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Re: Any feedback on San Luis Obispo CC? (SLO, Calif.)
« Reply #13 on: October 07, 2011, 04:44:46 PM »
On the 9th.  It appears that you discouraged the temptation to drive over the pond either short or onto the green?
Yes, the green was amazingly flat for a hole of that distance.  Definitely needed changing there.
It must be kept in mind that the elusive charm of the game suffers as soon as any successful method of standardization is allowed to creep in.  A golf course should never pretend to be, nor is intended to be, an infallible tribunal.
               Tom Simpson

Jon Spaulding

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Re: Any feedback on San Luis Obispo CC? (SLO, Calif.)
« Reply #14 on: October 07, 2011, 05:04:46 PM »
Looks way better. 2 questions for Neal:

1) Are they importing the sand from Salinas, or is Lime Mountain able to make this color up the road?
2) Is Scott Hoiseth still the pro?

I have not played the course, might make a point if an invite to the Straight Down event ever showed up on my door. Benham, put this on your punch list for my account......
You'd make a fine little helper. What's your name?

Neal_Meagher

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Re: Any feedback on San Luis Obispo CC? (SLO, Calif.)
« Reply #15 on: October 07, 2011, 06:26:23 PM »
Lynn,

Yes we unfortunately did have to discourage players from driving the green from the tee due to tennis courts just to the right of the hole.  The club was concerned for the safety of our tennis-playing brethren.  It is too bad although it really doesn't stop those who are intent on taking it on.

Jon,

The sand is from Salinas and is the same as at Corral De Tierra, Cypress Point, both courses at MPCC, Spyglass Hill and Pebble Beach.  And the current head golf professional is Rick Ventura.  As for the Straight Down, those senior tour cats will certainly see some differences from the last time they played there.  It is still scheduled for about a month from now.

And one more design item to note is that we have reshaped all of the bunkers so that the lead-ins are subtle enough, both vertically and horizontally, to allow their fairway mowing units to cut right up to them so there is none of that silly, superfluous, nonsensical and utterly ridiculous area of rough separating the bunkers from the fairway.  This way balls can actually find their way into the hazard itself as there is no rough to gobble up the balls first. 

Additionally, we shaped in some narrow and steep fingers that will have the kikuyu turf purposely grown a little hairy to create some real contrast to the very shaved and manicured lead-ins with the rest of the bunkers being surrounded by regular 1.5" rough.  The hairy areas are not a maintenance intensive thing as they don't have to be mowed as often as the old rounded bunker edges were so it is a net net on that front but has the overall effect of allowing each bunker to do more work with the varying rough heights around them.
« Last Edit: October 07, 2011, 06:48:59 PM by Neal_Meagher »
The purpose of art is to delight us; certain men and women (no smarter than you or I) whose art can delight us have been given dispensation from going out and fetching water and carrying wood. It's no more elaborate than that. - David Mamet

www.nealmeaghergolf.com

Tiger_Bernhardt

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Re: Any feedback on San Luis Obispo CC? (SLO, Calif.)
« Reply #16 on: October 07, 2011, 07:52:27 PM »
Neal, It is great to see you and one of your courses getting some good love. The course and work looks great. I hope all is well with you.

Jon Spaulding

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Re: Any feedback on San Luis Obispo CC? (SLO, Calif.)
« Reply #17 on: October 08, 2011, 07:54:07 PM »
Thanks Neil; I am somewhat intimate with the Salinas material as we installed the sand processing plant for Chem Lime in 2004. It is one of few dolomitic lime sources in CA, and I believe the only one producing a golf sand. They actually "dirty it up" for golf.

It's good to hear you were able to get them to go fairway heights into the improved hazards. With the amount of roll offered on a Kikuya surface, the ball has zero chance of entering a hazard on the ground when a layer of Kikuya rough exists. If you have some close-up photos of the lead-ins and the revised maintenance approach I would love to see them.
You'd make a fine little helper. What's your name?

Neal_Meagher

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Re: Any feedback on San Luis Obispo CC? (SLO, Calif.)
« Reply #18 on: October 10, 2011, 12:23:50 PM »
Jon,

Interesting about the bunker having to be "dirtied up" as it is quite, quite white.  But the club tried out 5 different sands and this is the one that appealed to them for playability and color.  But it is white.

I will be down there again at week's end so will get some good shots of the varying mowing heights surrounding most of the bunkers, with the close-cut lead-ins and shaggier grasses on the skinny noses (capes for the purist).  It really is the only way of ensuring that running shots do make it into the bunkers as you are right about the kikuyu being so sticky that balls would be caught up in an intervening layer of rough.

Also I hope to get some before and after shots of the new work on the 10th hole soon.


John Bernhardt,

Thanks so much for your comments and hope to see you out this way again soon.
The purpose of art is to delight us; certain men and women (no smarter than you or I) whose art can delight us have been given dispensation from going out and fetching water and carrying wood. It's no more elaborate than that. - David Mamet

www.nealmeaghergolf.com

Gib_Papazian

Re: Any feedback on San Luis Obispo CC? (SLO, Calif.)
« Reply #19 on: October 13, 2011, 06:52:24 PM »
The San Luis Obispo project came with quite a few challenges, but I happy to state that we have managed to overcome most of the shortcomings thus far - thanks to Neal's circumspect approach and an excellent construction crew that never settles for “quick and dirty.”

For those on this board who have never actually had the opportunity to test out your ideas in the real world, there is absolutely no substitute for sharp and experienced builders and an architect who is flexible when necessary, but with the courage to stick by his guns when meddlesome back-seat drivers try to inflict their whim on the project.

Kikuyu fairways presented some interesting factors to consider – ironically, the last project we did (I was in a far more limited capacity) was also a club with kikuyu fairways, so I had a clearer idea of what was doable and what would not work with some pet strategies and strategic arrangements.

As most of us know, this particular variety does not lend itself well to fast & firm playing surfaces, but the ball tends to sit up very well. I'm not sure whether the chicken or the egg came first out there, but the golf course and bunkering schematics played as an aerial game almost exclusively. The good part is that you can scalp it pretty close as long as a little brown won't get the jungle drums beating in the grillroom.

In the interest of full-disclosure, I am a hopeless low-ball hitter in the same vein as Tiger Bernhardt. Thus, I find golf courses that demand I fly the ball through the air over and over and over to reach the green to be unnecessarily frustrating. At San Luis Obispo, we quickly discovered there was only one way to skin the cat on most of the holes - and by the time I tottered down the hill on #18, I was exhausted and grumpy.

So, for those who complain that certain architects (and fledgling consultants) view the game through a prism of their own golf games, I plead guilty as charged and do not apologize for it. The fact is that most golfers – and I was a low-handicap player for 25 years – not only prefer the option of using the contours of the ground to direct their ball, but find it absolutely necessary to finish the hole.

The first order of business, after making a couple of lengthy site visits, was to unroll the topo and figure out a way to turn a one-dimensional, objective examination into a whimsical adventure. Of course, there is also the six-letter profanity to consider; Neal might be the best in world at squeezing every drop out of a BUDGET onto the finished product.

We are an interesting pair and have been close friends for many years – which may be how his measured intellect tolerates a manic ex-golf writer who core-dumps ideas all day long with no filter between his crackerbox cranium and acerbic tongue.

Needless to say, I am not allowed to attend Green Committee meetings.

However, I spent an entire day alone with the Green Chairman examining the golf course - which doubtless left the General Manager and nervous Neal gobbling Tums and holding their breath. However, as luck would have it, the Chairman is every bit as opinionated and bombastic as moi' and spent his young adulthood playing Crystal Downs. We got along famously . . . . . .

Life is full of trade-offs as it was necessary to prioritize what absolutely had to be done in Phase One and what could be left for the next go-round.  We were to leave the putting surfaces alone with the exception of #9, a hideous, dysfunctional train-wreck (illustrated above) that at first blush looked like a “before photo” in a diet commercial featuring Haystack Calhoun.

What you see in the pictures is all Neal. He was on a speed run with his sketch pad once we decided specifically what was wrong with the hole and I stood out of the way and watched the maestro wave his wand.

The new putting surface had to match, which it certainly does. Loren Roberts was literally raised on the golf course and there is no doubt he learned to roll the rock  with supernatural consistency due to the please-God-take-my-life, frightening speed and pitch to the greens. Imagine Oakmont with putting surfaces at 6% and more. I hope they will eventually slow them down to a more rational level, but that is like asking John Holmes to surgically shorten his dick.

The bunkering schematics we conjured up are more in proportion to the surrounds and introduce different entrances onto the putting surfaces. We paid very close attention and remained open to using the existing contours around the green complexes – most of which were covered over in scraggly rough.

The importance of a Superintendent buying into the new look cannot be underestimated; an experienced guy who has been through all the wars is sometimes is resistant to change. I think Neal was a breath of fresh air and a tactful architect who wins over the Super will find his job immeasurably easier.

On several holes – the par-3 #3 comes to mind – we were able to completely change the character of the hole simply by replacing an ugly oval bunker with a jazzed up puzzle-piece and moving the roughlines out of the line of play. Voila! You suddenly have a pretty decent modified Reverse-Redan.

There are many other examples of contours adjacent to the greens covered in rough that, when mowed down to fairway height, introduce a variety of maddening short-game options, specifically on the “bail-out side” of #15 & #16.

Since very few here have played the golf course, I'm not going to type out a pedantic recitation of why we decided to rearrange and add a carry bunker to #5 or why there are no greenside bunkers at all on #16 – you'll just have to see for yourself. My favorite hole is #4, where Neal conjured up the idea of some wild mounds in front of the green while I channeled the Great Bahto to make it somewhat of a Leven Hole.

My friend Tom Doak once called me out for wanting to do my own “Macdonald Redux”  - maybe he and Urbina are afraid Neal and I will top Old Mac someday ;-) - but if you learn to play guitar jamming along with Grateful Dead records, the chances are pretty good that there will always be little pieces of Sugar Magnolia in everything you write.

Like Pete Dye isn't a later day Seth Raynor?

Go ahead, argue with me on that point.

One thing that cannot be underestimated is the importance of rough lines and tree removal.  We spend a lot of time on this website whining about too many trees – and rightly so. SLO – from what we are told – used to be a corridor of drippy pines, most of which were lost to the pitch canker (I think).

Neal did an incredible job of convincing the naysayers that not only was it necessary to remove or trim random the junk eucalyptus trees, but also get rid of a dozen stone pines that somehow got planted directly in the line of play to our new bunkers.

Several times after we widened a fairway to eliminate an arbitrary rough line and rearrange and rebuild the bunkers, everyone would comment how terrific it looked. Now, drop a ball in exactly the right spot in the (new) fairway to introduce the best angle to approach the green and – well, look!  . . . . there is a scraggly tree overhanging and blocking the line to the green.

Somehow, those trees were not quite so sacred once it could be clearly illustrated that the entire exercise and construction expenditures are a waste if you don't ditch that putrid looking poplar, planted by a bird shitting on what was once the fairway.

Truth be told, I am awfully proud of what we have done so far – and since I am my own worst critic and a congenital curmudgeon – I'm not the slightest bit afraid to bring in Tommy Naccarato or Shackelford for the critics perspective. Neal and I actually have been talking about organizing an outing for the Treehouse intellectuals. The food in San Luis Obispo and Shell Beach is excellent and the chicks are college-town hot. What else do you want from life?

One more word about the 18th hole, a blind tee shot over a ridge to a catch-basin fairway, and back up the hill to an amphitheater green complex. It looks like an elongated version of #18 at Olympic Lake, but absolutely nothing about the hole worked, including a bunker that washed out constantly.

We went round and round, trying to produce – if not perhaps a boffo finish – something visually intriguing and memorable. I've got to admit that I had no solution for the myriad of technical problems. And here lies the dividing line between the kind of theoretical masturbation that goes on in the Treehouse by all the armchair architects (me included) and the actual nuts and bolts under the hood of the golf course.

For example, I'm a damned good litigator as Pro Se and have ghost written enough briefs to know that my line of manure stands up in the Family Law arena. But once you pull off the training wheels and have to sink or swim in the highly technical world of insurance or appellate law, it becomes apparent you don't know squat and should STFUp, step aside and let the real gunners handle the howitzers.

And so it goes with golf architecture, in case any of you Foot-Joy sniffers out there are unclear, be clear about this: There are a thousand factors that go into making a creative decision when building a golf course - and just because you have a nifty-ass idea in your head that would make Mackenzie stand up and take notice has no bearing on whether it can actually be done with environmental constraints, water lines or just plain not enough dough in the kitty.

I've gotten quite an education over the years from Neal on this subject, who frequently laments that few in the Treehouse have any idea how many trade-offs are sometimes necessary to translate that spiffy drawing into the actual dirt.

It is one thing to push sand around in the Pine Barrens where drainage is hardly an issue and quite another to sculpt something of merit and strategic excellence with adobe soil, effluent water and shrieking hot summers.

So, back to #18 and all the dumb-ass solutions I came up with to make it stand up with the rest of the golf course. I'm going to toot my horn and assert that my contributions out there have tangible value and am frankly a little shocked that some of my ideas ended up translating very well into the dirt.

But I know that nearly everything I draw up has a visceral connection to a hole buried deep in my memory. Whether conscious or not, all I am doing is drawing on a lifetime of experience and trying to plug it into what is in front of me out there. I've never scratched out something completely original on a golf course in my life.

Don't forget one thing: When the backhoe has struck a sewer pipe that cannot be moved and the construction crew is sitting there on-the-clock waiting for some direction, everybody looks at THE ARCHITECT and asks “Okay coach, call the play.”

Right now. On the fly. Therein lies the difference between a Pro and a prophylactic.  90% of the Green Chairmen in America need to learn that immutable truth. Just because you have a Juris Doctorate from WTF Law School does not make you an architect any more than having a Golf Architecture degree from Cornell makes you a lawyer.  

  

                                          
« Last Edit: October 14, 2011, 05:34:27 AM by Gib Papazian »

Bill_McBride

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Re: Any feedback on San Luis Obispo CC? (SLO, Calif.)
« Reply #20 on: October 13, 2011, 07:31:07 PM »
Gibby, hard to believe but it's been ten fricking years since I came down to San Mateo and played Poplar Grove with you, Neal and Stettner.   I will never forget the cool drawings Neal was cranking out in the grill afterward.   It's great to see you guys working together on such an interesting project.   

All the best to both of you,

Bill

Mike Benham

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Re: Any feedback on San Luis Obispo CC? (SLO, Calif.)
« Reply #21 on: October 13, 2011, 07:46:37 PM »
... Poplar Grove with you, Neal and Stettner ...


Poplar Grove?   I think you mean Poplar Creek and yes, Gib screwed that one up too  ;D
"... and I liked the guy ..."

Bill_McBride

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Re: Any feedback on San Luis Obispo CC? (SLO, Calif.)
« Reply #22 on: October 13, 2011, 09:19:10 PM »
... Poplar Grove with you, Neal and Stettner ...


Poplar Grove?   I think you mean Poplar Creek and yes, Gib screwed that one up too  ;D

Actually I was thinking of Shady Grove......

David_Tepper

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Re: Any feedback on San Luis Obispo CC? (SLO, Calif.)
« Reply #23 on: October 13, 2011, 09:42:18 PM »
The coincidence and serendipity I encounter in golf never ceases to amaze me. The only reason I started this thread, aside from having once played SLO CC 20 years ago, was that I was paired with a fellow at Harding Park 2 weeks ago who happened to be a member there and happened to mention that bunker work was being done on the course. Prior to my post, I don't think I had ever seen SLO CC mentioned or discussed on this board.

Not only does someone on this chat board happen to know what is being done at SLO CC, the people who are doing the work are fellow GCA-ers and are kind enough to give of the inside scoop on the work being done. Thanks guys!
« Last Edit: October 13, 2011, 09:43:54 PM by David_Tepper »

Bill_McBride

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Re: Any feedback on San Luis Obispo CC? (SLO, Calif.)
« Reply #24 on: October 13, 2011, 10:01:30 PM »
The coincidence and serendipity I encounter in golf never ceases to amaze me. The only reason I started this thread, aside from having once played SLO CC 20 years ago, was that I was paired with a fellow at Harding Park 2 weeks ago who happened to be a member there and happened to mention that bunker work was being done on the course. Prior to my post, I don't think I had ever seen SLO CC mentioned or discussed on this board.

Not only does someone on this chat board happen to know what is being done at SLO CC, the people who are doing the work are fellow GCA-ers and are kind enough to give of the inside scoop on the work being done. Thanks guys!

....and we owe it all to Ran's vision.