WOW!!! Pine Valley...

[ed_getka]

...is an adrenaline shot for architecture junkies. I drove 8 hours up to Pine Valley for the Crump Cup so I could see the course. It was worth every minute of the drive. After a couple of years of apathy after the move to NC, this was just the antidote to get me charged up again.
   I walked the course in sequence and took some notes and then started on a second circuit and made it to the turn before they shut down the course because the matches were over. I saw a few shots here and there, but because of the dampness and the off and on drizzle I knew watching shots on this day wasn't really going to give me a sense of what the course is about. I just concentrated on looking at the hole features and green complexes.
    One of my first impressions was that the course doesn't appear to be as intimidating as I had expected. There is clearly trouble that can make for a long day, but it wasn't unavoidable. On average from the normal tees the average carry is probably only 150-170 with a few longer exceptions. Clearly you can't foozle the ball off the tee, but after that if you make good decisions and manage your game you can certainly play golf at Pine Valley. I was expecting a course where a single digit handicap would have to have a good day to survive and a high handicapper would get eaten alive, but that is not what I observed.
    #1 Par 4 399yds  Do NOT show up on the first tee here without warming up. The tee shot isn't too bad, but the scrub is visually intimidating enough to make it seem daunting to say the least. The reality is the carry is probably 150 from the regular tees and the fairway is relatively wide. In general if you have missed the fairway I would estimate that 50% of the time you will not be able to advance to the green because if you are in a bunker it has a high enough lip or some scrub in your way that you can't get to the green or at least you shouldn't try if you are being prudent. I love how the hole turns right and there is a long bunker down the right to keep you honest. If you are in position in the fairway and you are on your game then try for the green, but knowing there are serious dropoffs left, right and behind the green coming up  a little short and in play is preferable to starting out with a big number.

[Joe Bausch]

I'm wondering how long your next post will be on the 2nd hole!

It was good to see you again EG.

[ed_getka]

Does anyone know how to keep the screen from bouncing after you have typed down to the bottom of the box?

Back to #1. A very cool green with nice extended ripples and partial muffin in the back right. No pushover hole to start at PV.

#2 Straightaway par 4 355yds. Plenty of room to hit the fwy, but all you are really thinking about is that "wall" rising up to the green at the end of the fairway. The plethora of bunkers flanking the fwy on either side seems a bit out of place, but they will certainly get in the way of getting home in 2 more often than not. Another 150 carry off the tee, but the real fun starts in trying to figure out what shot to hit up to the green surface which you can't see. It is a very large and apparently more accomodating green than in the past, but with that 20-30 foot rise with bunkering in the face is plenty of distraction. Steep slope on the right flank doesn't seem pinnable and will bring shots back to towards the center, with a couple of muffins rising up in the central section of the green. A nice shelf on the left side of the green rising up a couple of feet must be a hard target to commit to shooting at. The green rolling off the back is just the antidote for someone taking too much club to avoid the trouble in front, but the green is plenty deep so I can't imagine too many balls go over considering the short to mid-iron you are likely approaching with.
    Which brings me to a question. Do you think the first-timer would be better off being ignorant of how much trouble they can get in or would one be better off getting advice from a caddie to overcome all the visual intimidation?
     Are the fronting bunkers in the face of the slope in front of the green newer additions? They seemed a bit odd for some reason.

[ed_getka]

I'm wondering how long your next post will be on the 2nd hole!

It was good to see you again EG.

Joe,
    This will be going on for a while. After a long day training nurses in the ICU it is time to call it a day. More tomorrow. Hopefully Bernard Darwin will inhabit my body overnight and I can do the course a little justice.

[Mike Benham]

...is an adrenaline shot for architecture junkies. I drove 8 hours up to Pine Valley for the Crump Cup so I could see the course.

Whoa, 8 hours?  To drive 450 or so miles?

The Ed Getka I use to know could drive the 340 miles from Pleasanton to Rustic Canyon in 4 hours or less ...

[Bill_McBride]

...is an adrenaline shot for architecture junkies. I drove 8 hours up to Pine Valley for the Crump Cup so I could see the course.

Whoa, 8 hours?  To drive 450 or so miles?

The Ed Getka I use to know could drive the 340 miles from Pleasanton to Rustic Canyon in 4 hours or less ...

The East Coast girls may be hip, but the East Coast traffic isn't!  I-95 can be 300 miles of parking lot from DC to Philly.

[ed_getka]

...is an adrenaline shot for architecture junkies. I drove 8 hours up to Pine Valley for the Crump Cup so I could see the course.

Whoa, 8 hours?  To drive 450 or so miles?

The Ed Getka I use to know could drive the 340 miles from Pleasanton to Rustic Canyon in 4 hours or less ...

Mike,
    I'm pretty frugal and I refuse to pay unnecessary tolls, so I took a couple of detours.

[astavrides]

Does anyone know how to keep the screen from bouncing after you have typed down to the bottom of the box?

I wish I did.  It's very annoying.

[PThomas]

God bless you Ed and anyone else who has gone to PV just to look at the course...I could only do that after playing it...seeing it first without playing it must be one of golf's biggest pr*%& teases...

[ed_getka]

#3 par 3 181 yards
     Nothing but sand, a few patches of scrub and a green. Downhill tee shot (?40 foot drop). Where on earth do you hit this green to get a crack at birdie? The front of the green is pitching the ball forward, then there is a very gradual upslope towards the back, but nowhere does it appear to be easy to keep your ball in play. I love the way the green curls around to the back left and makes for a VERY challenging pin position. That back left position is pretty flat so taking dead aim must require a fantastic shot. Having said all that there really isn't much reason to get worse than bogey unless you don't have a sand game.
    Speaking of sand game, if you don't have one I wouldn't even bother showing up at PV. I would estimate the average depth of the bunkering to be 5' around the greens at PV. I think the shallowest I saw was about 2-3' and some must have been close to 10'. Yikes!
    

[ed_getka]

Does anyone know how to keep the screen from bouncing after you have typed down to the bottom of the box?

I wish I did.  It's very annoying.

Alex,
    Tony M sent me a message and said there was a thread about it in the past. Otherwise he recommended doing the typing in Word and then cutting and pasting.

[ed_getka]

#4 par4 438yds

    Not that the start has been easy by any stretch of the imagination, but now the demands go up a notch. You are looking at a fairway rising up to a skyline ridge (probably 20' rise). Probably about a 170 carry over sand/scrub (the majority of tee shots are over sand/scrub so if I forget to mention it just assume it is there!). One interesting thing I noticed is that on the longer carry tee shots there is an easier way to the short grass. Of course it always makes the hole play longer, but the option is there. The carry off the tee to the right ends with a high lip which will keep you from advancing too much further, however if you go left the sand carry is just as long, but it is flatter and would allow you to advance the ball much further. The hold bends a bit to the right so staying left will lengthen the hole a bit. However, what you are really trying to do is hit it over the crown of the fwy and if you can get past the flattish area there is about a 15' drop down that helps the longer hitter get that much closer to the green. Fairly long approach into this green, but it is quite generous and open in the front to a green with some nice movement.
    The back tee here is quite interesting as it is probably 15' lower than the regular tee and it is slightly off to the right, forcing the longer hitter to hit a fade off the tee. A drawer of the ball must be quite uncomfortable on this tee.

[ed_getka]

#5 par3 219yds

    Just another easy par 3. Actually this one isn't nearly as daunting as I expected. Just keep in mind I am speaking from a 10 handicap perspective, so I clearly am not planning on a birdiefest at any course, much less at PV. The carry over the water can't be more than 120 yards, and then there is some grass rough (very playable). The green seems to be about about 20' above the tee. After the grass rough you have a scrubby/bunker area that is probably 20 yards. Then you have fairway leading up to the green. So the carry to the "fairway" is probably 180-190. The fwy rises up about 4' to the green. The green is relatively straightforward with a back shelf that rises up about a foot. Missing short (over the scrub, but short of the green to be exact), left,  or long isn't too bad as all that bunkering is generally about 3 feet deep. Missing right is another story as Gene Littler can attest. If you are "fortunate" enough to get in the bunkers that are 6-8' deep you have a chance to make bogey. If you miss right of the bunkers your ball has a long slope to bounce and roll down into the woods, otherwise known as being screwed.
   Definitely an intimidating hole, but if you just break it down you realize it isn't as bad as it first appears. If you can just get past the visual intimidation PV throws at you I think you can play this course.
    Is that a dinner bell to the right of the tee? A big metal ring with a sledge hammer sitting in it.

[ed_getka]

#6 par4 375yds

    A dogleg right with the de rigeur carry over the scrub, but with a true risk reward tee shot with a bailout for the intimidated. This carry is a little different as the scrub/sand is falling down a pretty good slope to the right and down into the woods. Clearly not the time to unleash a slice!
     If you play left you probably have a 150yd carry to a slightly elevated fairway which adds to the intimidation. If you get really aggressive you can probably get 100+ yards closer to the green, but you have to pull off a 240ish? carry. At about the midpoint of the carry is an unfortunate tree that makes an easy aiming pole as it is probably a 200yd carry at that point. I would imagine for the regular golfer the caddy just says to aim at the tree (which isn't high enough to obstruct your shot) and hit it.
    Not a very long hole, but the threat of missing right and losing your ball in the trees on a severe slope must act as a deterrent and cause the hole to play longer for most golfers who don't have the courage to take the agressive line.
    This hole is also interesting as it effectively plays as a double dogleg for the conservative golfer. The hole itself doglegs right, but then the green is angled from 4'o'clock to 10'o'clock, with a nice deep (8') bunker at about 7'o'clock. Thus the conservative golfer plays left and safe and now has to come in over that deep bunker if he wants a shot at birdie, unless he has the cojones to try and draw the ball in there, which few will, with the trees and the steep slope down into a ravine looming right. Fortunately there are some bunkers there to save you if you don't mind a 5' deep bunker. On the other hand, the aggressive golfer playing a little fade off the tee will be much closer to the green with a nice look at the green with a short to midiron. Classic risk reward golf and a test of your ability to manage your game. The green istelf is pretty straightforward with a little 2' rise in the back up to a shelf.

[Kalen Braley]

Ed,

If you're using IE, click on the Tools Menu and select "Compability View Settings".  Then add golfclubatlas.com and that should fix your problem.

P.S.  I'm enjoying your posts, I'd love to make it back East for one of the Crump cups ones of these days as well.

Kalen

[ed_getka]

Ed,

If you're using IE, click on the Tools Menu and select "Compability View Settings".  Then add golfclubatlas.com and that should fix your problem.

P.S.  I'm enjoying your posts, I'd love to make it back East for one of the Crump cups ones of these days as well.

Kalen

   Thanks for the tip. Come out for the Crump, believe me you won't regret it. Even better would be to come out in 2013 for the Walker Cup at NGLA. I can't wait for that year. Open at Merion, Amateur? at The Country Club, and Women's Open at Sebonac.

[Sean Leary]

Ed,

Is it wider than you expected?

[ed_getka]

#7 par5 573 yds

     Not a very interesting hole IMO. Straightaway hole that simply requires you to play from one island to the next. Pretty generous width off the tee and 170 over the scrub, with probably another 20 yards over grass rough. It appears the big decision is on the second shot for my level of golf. Assuming I hit a tee shot 240, then I have to hit my next shot about 240 to carry Hell's HA assuming I paced it off properly. Here again you have to manage your game and decide what is the chance you can pull off the second shot. I forgot to ask someone what the prevailing wind is at PV, but I am assuming it would be in your face on this hole. True?
    As I paced it you have 170 off tee over scrub, 20yds more over grass rough, 170 of flat fwy, 120 yds HHA, 160yds flat fwy, and maybe 10 more of sand bunkering fronting the green. I obviously paced it off wrong as my totals don't match up with the 573, but the sections give you an idea of what the hole is asking. Pretty much dead flat and straight so it is mainly an exercise in figuring out distances.
     Up at the green you have a fairly generous target with sand most of the way around (of course) anywhere from 5-7' deep.

#8 par4 314 yards
     Uber cool short par 4. Comfortable carry to the fairway of probably 140 yards and then the fun starts. The fairway slopes from left to right and about 30 yards beyond the carry it goes downhill about 20'. Most shots played into one of the alternate greens will be played off a sidehill, downhill lie to some of the smallest greens you'll ever see. I paced off the left one and came up with 10 paces wide by 30 paces deep, so I'm guessing it is 900sq'. Adding to the challenge of the lie you are hitting off (from about 70yds!!) is that the green is above you and has 6'-7' bunkers in front in addition to 8-10' bunkers in between greens. The greens are pitched pretty good from back to front to add to the challenge. So lets sum up: super tough lie to approach from, awkward distance (less than a full wedge), deep bunkers front, and in between, and long is no picnic. Easy short par 4 on the scorecard right?!!!
     I absolutely loved seeing this hole, a revelation into how much can happen in 300 yards.

[ed_getka]

Ed,

Is it wider than you expected?

Sean,
   It really is. That is not to say it is wide open, but I was expecting to be gagging in fear on each tee. Getting in play off the tee is easily the weakest part of my game, more mentally than physically/swing-wise, so I pay particular attention to the tee shot when I am walking a course.
   One of the things I look for in a great course is balance in 4 areas: demand of tee shot, demand of approaches, demand of short game, and demand of putting. PV does well in this balance with a premium on the short game because of the sand shot requirements. I fully expected the tee shot requirements to supersede the other 3 areas and was pleasantly surprised to find out I was wrong.
    In speaking with Archie after seeing the course I asked him how much the trees had been cut back in recent years and he said it was pretty comparable to where it was back in the 70's. Had I seen the course 5-10 years ago from what I have read I'm sure I would have had a very different opinion of the tee shot requirements.

[archie_struthers]

 

Ed is doing a fabulous job after a quick study. Quite intuitive on number five , particularly his analysis of the left side being much the best. To that , his thinking that the hole wasn't terrifying shows the beauty of golf.  Mr Warner Shelley at 80 years loved playing  #5 !  He would hit it on the slope short of the road , flip a seven or eight iron on the green from there and walk away with four all the time.   He made three on the hole more than five.     

There are lots of Crump Cuppers who would not be too upset making bogey here in the qualifier, albeit with a different strategy. 


Ed also clearly loves #8.....one of the best short par fours on the planet.  ( original green ...left)

[Dan Boerger]

Ed - Really great write up and thank for posting your observations.

The course is absolutely more visually intimidating that just plain penalizing, IMO. The movement in the fairways and the complexity of the greens will all test your short game like no other course I've been on.

I also believe the routing is simply inspired. Not only is it an enjoyable walk, it's relentless and gentle at the same time.

Great stuff.

[JSlonis]

Ed,

The prevailing wind is usually right to left and downwind on #7.

The addition of the new back tees on that hole have made it more difficult.  on the tee shot, it's the second narrowest fairway on the course and with the added length, you almost always have to hit driver from the back tees in order to reach the second fairway in two shots.  

[Kevin Pallier]

Good to hear from you Ed

Am enjoying visualizing your comments - keep em coming...

[Tom ORourke]

Ed - your post on #7 has the line - "on the tee shot, it's the second narrowest fairway on the course." Part of that is the new tee on #9. I have been to the Crump a number of times, and a few years ago I noticed a few new tees. The new tee on #9 was basically placed back almost in the fairway on #7. Thus the narrow driving area. The new tees on holes like 4, 7, 9, 13, and 18 added a lot of yardage. I mentioned the new tees to one of the marshalls and he said that the new tee on 18 was a big difference. Instead of mid-irons many players are coming into that green with a 3 wood. He thought there were a number of shots ending up in the parking lot due to that. I am enjoying your posts. I have always thought that a good player, playing well, could shoot a really low number there. I saw one of the seniors a few years ago make about 7 or 8 birdies in one round. He missed the 2nd fairway to the right and made a 7 or 8, but probably played the rest of the round in 6 under. That was a year that the weather was bad and they had to play stroke play instead of match play. I think one of the marks of a great course is that you can shoot a low number if you play well, and you can do it there.

[JESII]

Ed,

Add me to the list of people really enjoying your posts.

I especially loved your comment on the 3rd hole..."Having said all that there really isn't much reason to get worse than bogey unless you don't have a sand game."...as I made a pair of 5's last week...believe it or not, I also had a pair of 12 footers for birdie on #5!!! Golf???