Flossmoor Top 100 Classic?

[Brian Hilko]

This summer I have had the privilege of playing Flossmoor a few times. The restoration is just incredible. I believe this course stacks up with the big boys in the Chicagoland area. In my humble opinion I feel that Flossmoor has surpassed Skokie and Beverly. Currently the course sits 135 but I feel this course is good enough to crack the top 85. My buddy says they have seen an influx of raters recently so I hope this bodes well for them. It is tough living in the shadow of Olympia Fields. I would love to hear opinions on why or why not this course should make an appearance on the list.

[Mark Chaplin]

Having played very few non top 100 courses I'm unsure of the competition but personally rank Flossmoor above Skokie and Glen View. The front nine has a smattering of good holes but the back nine is exceptional and in number 17 home of one of my all time favourite holes.

You are correct the restoration was superb and FCC is largely an unknown gem.

[SL_Solow]

I like Flossmoor, but no.

[Mac Plumart]

I've never met someone named "BHILK"...is that Slovakian?

[PCCraig]

I first played Flossmoor in a 36 hole tournament in ~2001 and to be perfectly candid, I wasn't a fan. There were some great greens, but there were way too many trees covering the course. I played it again in 2010 and was floored by the work done there and really liked the course a lot. Top 100 classic? Maybe. Better than Beverly? Maybe. Better than Skokie? That's pushing it.

[Phil McDade]

Here's a thread on Flossmoor from a couple of years ago, post-renovation overseen by Ray Hearn:

http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,41166.0.html

I played Flossmoor the day after playing Beverly, and my concluding thoughts in comparing the two were that:

-- Flossmoor may be a tougher course than Beverly;

-- Beverly is overall a more coherent course than Flossmoor (that is, it's of a piece; Flossmoor is a bit disjointed).

Both are really solid courses, and quite comparable; I think the choice between the two comes down to some individual preferences.

[Jud_T]

Have yet to make it down to Flossmoor.  If it's even in the discussion with Skokie I better get a new Metra Rail card...

[JR Potts]

Any course that has a hole as bad and as out of place as the 13th (the short par 3) isn't a Top 100 course.

It's a nice course...a course I would play routinely, but it's no Bev...and it's certainly no Skokie.

[Tim_Cronin]

JR, is that the old 13th or the new 13th? For me, the eighth is a question mark, but otherwise, it's a wonderful course.

[Terry Lavin]

I was a member at FCC for many years and I absolutely love the restoration, with a few caveats.  First, the bunkering LOOKS great, but they need to be much deeper, especially the fairway bunkers.  Second, the new par three 13th hole is singularly underwhelming.  The hole it replaced needed to be replaced because it was a "negative signature hole", you know, the stupid hole everybody can't stop talking about, but the replacement isn't really worthy of much chatter at all.  Finally, the 8th hole issue is a little controversial in my mind.  Taken on its own merits, especially with the new tree removal behind and toward the third hole, the 8th hole is great, challenging and fun.  But it doesn't fit with the rest of the course.  It just doesn't.  It looks like a Lowcountry special to me.  The original 8 hole was a 300 yard par four that nobody had any interest in restoring, but the new one, while a great hole, doesn't match the rest of the course.

Having said that, FCC is a terrific course.  I maintain that it has the best and most unique set of 18 greens in Chicagoland.  They have tiny greens, big greens, greens that are an extension of the fairway, a skyline green protected by a cavernous bunker and some of the most interesting side-to-side sloping greens that you'll find in the Midwest.

Do I think it's better than Skokie.  Ah, no, I don't but I love it.  Not better than Beverly, not better than Olympia North or South.  It's better than a lot of other Chicago courses, but not any that are currently in the Classic Top 100, just my opinion.

[Greg Ohlendorf]

The real question is not comparing Flossmoor to Bev and Skokie, which are both very good. It's comparing the three of them with some of the other courses on the Classic list between 80 and 100 or so. In that cases I think they all fit in quite well.

[JR Potts]

JR, is that the old 13th or the new 13th? For me, the eighth is a question mark, but otherwise, it's a wonderful course.

The new 13th.  That little Par 3 with the strange green.  Looks like a Prairie Landing hole to me....a la the 8th.

I think what makes the 13th hole so troubling is it's juxtoposition next to the 12th hole....one of the great old-time classics with a really neat fall-away green.  You finish playing the 12th....take a nice little walk, turn around the trees and WHAM....there's the 13th hole....meh....so underwhelming...and so much different than the 12th.

[J_ Crisham]

The real question is not comparing Flossmoor to Bev and Skokie, which are both very good. It's comparing the three of them with some of the other courses on the Classic list between 80 and 100 or so. In that cases I think they all fit in quite well.

Greg,  Good call!   It is interesting when you play clubs that are rated very high ie: East Lake, Garden City, Cherry Hills etc and then wonder what do these clubs have that Beverly or Flossmoor doesn't. No slam on the above listed clubs- I greatly enjoyed my days there-especially GCGC.                                                           Jack

[Mark McKeever]

I recently played Flossmoor while out in Chicago and I will echo what Terry says about the greens.  They were incredibly fun and extremely varied.  I do wish that the original 13th could have been kept, but it seems to have been a safety issue that it was moved.  Fitting in between hole 12 and 14 there is a VERY tall order.  Both are great holes in my opinion with 12 getting the upper hand.  Having not played enough of the other top 100 classic bubble courses, I can't comment yet on where Flossmoor belongs, but I thoroughly enjoyed playing it. 

Mark

[Kevin Cahoon]

It is interesting that the new 13th has such detractors. The original 13th was so sloped that with today's green speeds was virtually unplayable and had less than 500 square feet of area that was pinable. If you examine the new 13th you will see that it follows the contours of the land quite nicely. The hole is deceiving because from the tee the green appears simple but with repeated play you realize that its has quite a bit of complexity. It has four distinct sections which require a precise short iron to get close to the days hole location. If your shots finds the wrong part of the green you are left with a difficult two putt for par because of the green's slope.

Does it belong in the top 100 classic course, I would say yes, but there are 10 to 15 other courses that are of similar quality and distinction that one could argue deserve inclusion.

     

[Phil McDade]

Kevin:

Your description of the 13th green is quite good, but I think it's the very reason some folks are troubled by the hole. That green is a very good one, from where I sit, but somewhat out of character with the rest of the course's greens -- many of which are simple ovals with nonetheless some tricky tilts. I really enjoyed Flossmoor for the simplicity of its greens, which are quite a contrast from what you find on some many modern courses with heavily sloped and contoured greens. Hearn may have felt a bit compromised -- there's not enough land there for anything but a par 3 (a short one at that), and my guess is that he viewed the green was the way to give the hole some interest and challenge. But it's unlike most of the other greens on the course.

[Brian Hilko]

I have enjoyed reading all your comments. The reason I used Skokie and Beverly are they are bubble courses and my only frame of reference. I love the prairie restoration behind number 8. I do not hate the 8th like some have mentioned but I never played the original hole. From that perspective the hole did not feel that bad. I like the green site because it allowed ample room left of the water and the back board was a nice touch. The hole would be better served with more tree removal on the right and bunkering the inside of the dog leg more and maybe keeping one bunker on the left. The tee shot seemed to force me to far left. overall I still enjoyed the  greensite. The new 13th is not a bad hole. I agree that Hearn had his hands tied with this hole. I also agree on the post about the set of greens at Flossmoor. They are special. That is one of the main reasons I fell in love with the place. I also felt the bunker positioning was fantastic. Really made me think on a lot of holes. I am also a sucker for jagged edged bunkers. They really fit the site well. I would also like to point out that even though the last 3 holes run back and forth they work perfectly. 16, 17, and 18 are all unique and fun to play. I might be the first person to ever think number 17 was "fun". 16 is one of my favorite holes in Chicago and home to probably my favorite bunker. I would love to see an official GCA profile on Flossmoor someday and I think the club would love that too.

[Terry Lavin]

Whether FCC is or isn't a Top 100 Classic doesn't change the fact that it is, and always has been, a terrific golf course.  Due primarily to its proximity to the more famous Olympia Fields, it always had the feel of an underprivileged step-child, but truth is that the club has a great history and the course has great bones.  The restoration by Hearn is surely the most eye-popping that I've ever seen, due to the boldness of the tree removal and the interlocking fairway feature on 16-18.  The course is much better than it was before the restoration and it was plenty good before.  I know that boosters want their course to be on the list for ego satisfaction, member recruitment and other worthy reasons, but the problem with a Top 100 list is that there's only 100 courses on the list!  If FCC makes it, I'll be happy and only mildly surprised, but surely not disappointed.

[Brian Hilko]

Spot on Terry! Any day spent at Flossmoor is a great day.

[Jeff Goldman]

I played a very fun round a couple weeks ago with Henry Johnson, newer Prez of FCC. Conditioning was very good, and it has the tiniest greens east of Pebble.

One interesting thing is that, as I understand it, historically, up through the 1980s, FCC was the "society" and hoi polloi club, while Olympia's membership was more self-made businessmen, and otherwise had a lot of "business entertainment" members (we still do a lot of that) along with the families etc. 

Jeff Goldman

[Terry Lavin]

I played a very fun round a couple weeks ago with Henry Johnson, newer Prez of FCC. Conditioning was very good, and it has the tiniest greens east of Pebble.

One interesting thing is that, as I understand it, historically, up through the 1980s, FCC was the "society" and hoi polloi club, while Olympia's membership was more self-made businessmen, and otherwise had a lot of "business entertainment" members (we still do a lot of that) along with the families etc.  

Jeff Goldman

Your use of hoi polloi is incorrect, because the term is associated with the "masses" or "multitude", not the privileged, but your analysis of the makeup of the two clubs is accurate.  Flossmoor was the club for the upper crust, mostly Protestant families with inherited wealth, while Olympia was populated more by so-called white ethnics who owned construction companies and were executives at the Indiana steel mills.  Olympia was more the Catholic club.  Nowadays, of course, every club on the South Side is more like the UN, with very little evidence of discrimination against any racial, ethnic or religious group, which is proved by the fact that you are a Jewish man and the president of a "Catholic" club and Henry Johnson, if memory serves, is an African American and the president of a formerly white, Protestant club.  Makes me want to break into a Bob Dylan song, "The times they are a changing"...LOL

[Jeff Goldman]

Oops. Can't edit from a blackberry.

[Terry Lavin]

Oops. Can't edit from a blackberry.

No, you can't but that WAS one hellacious beaver!

[Jud_T]

I played a very fun round a couple weeks ago with Henry Johnson, newer Prez of FCC. Conditioning was very good, and it has the tiniest greens east of Pebble.

One interesting thing is that, as I understand it, historically, up through the 1980s, FCC was the "society" and hoi polloi club, while Olympia's membership was more self-made businessmen, and otherwise had a lot of "business entertainment" members (we still do a lot of that) along with the families etc.  

Jeff Goldman

Your use of hoi polloi is incorrect, because the term is associated with the "masses" or "multitude", not the privileged, but your analysis of the makeup of the two clubs is accurate.  Flossmoor was the club for the upper crust, mostly Protestant families with inherited wealth, while Olympia was populated more by so-called white ethnics who owned construction companies and were executives at the Indiana steel mills.  Olympia was more the Catholic club.  Nowadays, of course, every club on the South Side is more like the UN, with very little evidence of discrimination against any racial, ethnic or religious group, which is proved by the fact that you are a Jewish man and the president of a "Catholic" club and Henry Johnson, if memory serves, is an African American and the president of a formerly white, Protestant club.  Makes me want to break into a Bob Dylan song, "The times they are a changing"...LOL

Now if we could just get this kind of economic competition on the North Shore....

[SL_Solow]

Down the street Idlewild has even smaller greens for the most part (they were small even before maintenance shrinkage).  As to your rcomment Jud, unfortunately the economic competition is a result of the South suburbs having seen a migration of wealth north.  Accordingly, supply of good golf has outstripped demand.  The good is that many of the artificial barriers to membership have broken down by necessity and the cost of membership is significantly less than in the more affluent North and West suburbs.  The bbad is that there is still insufficient demand resulting in the loss of a fine old club like Ravisloe (now public but for how long?) with several other clubs struggling mightily.