Demographics for Golf Course Architects

[Tom_Doak]

Tom D. -

FYI, "Prince Finally Explains His Dancing Comment"

Well, I know who I'm nominating for the next season of "Dancing With the Stars" 

But I doubt he'll participate, for safety's sake.

[Ian Andrew]

The LAST thing I was thinking was that my last birthday was a peak

p.s. back to Tom,

I'd retire if I were you, it's all downhill from here.
If you find yourself stuck with new projects, don't fret, I'll help you out by taking a few of them on to help you transition.

I am just wondering if I still have better times ahead.

Not for a while anyway, skiing stagnated for nearly 20 years, why wouldn't golf?

As the great Chuck Prince said it, you've got to dance while the music is playing.

When the music’s over, turn out the lights …

[Ulrich Mayring]

Ian,

I think you didn't read correctly what I was saying. I was referring to "creative people" in general, because I think the number of golf course architects is generally not big enough to make any meaningful statistical observations. As has been observed by many in this thread, for golf course architects there are numerous external factors that influence how good their courses become. However, the question as I understood it was about creativity and whether that gets better or worse with age - or is independent of it. And the answer to that is: statistically it gets worse with age. Perhaps you can offset this by putting young talent in your crew

Ulrich

[Mike Nuzzo]

Tom
At what point would your routing skills diminish?
Those would seem to be cumulative.
Cheers

[Tom_Doak]

Tom
At what point would your routing skills diminish?
Those would seem to be cumulative.
Cheers

Mike:

I agree with that part.  I think I'll keep getting better at doing routings, until whenever old age starts taking its toll.  I've done routings for three potential new projects this year, and I really can't believe how quickly they came together, or how well.  It's tempting to second-guess myself, and it's possible they will change before they get built -- IF they get built -- but they don't look like they're too bad after the first draft.

[Scott Stearns]

i think skills increase then plateau.  look at Dye.  Both crooked stick and The golf club were good, but not great.  He does sawgrass in 83 and whistling in the 90s.  both great.  Both lousy sites.   

i think arch get good, then they get offered good properties/jobs--which give them opportunities to get better. 

[Mike Nuzzo]

Scott
Skills may plateau, but that is after a number of experiences
The opportunity to design/route a golf course, and see how it pans out, is very rare.
For some architects the plateau is much higher than others; and because it is so rare, they may never reach it.
cheers

[Ben Sims]

In the Air Force, at 29 years old, I'm considered as "peaked" as a pilot.  Not because I can't get better from here.  But because I will never be in a position from here on out to focus solely on my craft.  I am a supervisor now, mid-level management, an as long as I stay in, I'll progress in rank and experience to where merely flying jets will be less and less my primary duty.

Is being a modern golf architect much the same?  The more experience you gain and the more courses you build you become more of a leader of a team with the same set of values rather than the tactical force behind the course?

[Brad Isaacs]

Physical and intellectual performance probably peaks a lot earlier than we want to believe. It is best to be in college when we are young. Einstein had finished theory of Relativity by 20.   This does not say that the elderly have nothing to offer. Joe Paterno has definitely peaked, well also time for him to go,so maybe not a great example.

[Dan Kelly]

Atul Gawande

A wonderful writer.

For the past couple of years, I've been recommending his "The Checklist Manifesto" to anyone interested in quality control -- in medicine or any other field ... including golf-course architecture, I suppose.

Personally, I doubt that there's a single peak age for either talent or skill in any field.

[Carl Rogers]

Architect (buildings) Louis Kahn never had his first real good sized high visibility commission, Yale Art Gallery, until age 51.  Probably a case of not being discovered ... and at a personal level developing the confidence ...

Practiced vigorously all over the world until his death 25 years later.

[michael damico]

TD,
I like the way the book Outliers deals with this type of subject. I think being born at the proper time is the most critical element.   I do think client and opportunity have a huge impact on when one does his best work and I would assume you are placing good site under opportunity.  If one is acquiring the right client, opportunity etc due to playing ability he might acquire these clients much earlier than someone who has been trying to acquire these same elements through his own work over the years.  But I think the most critical elements in doing one's best work after having the ability to acquire the client and the opportunity are  time and internal shaping.  I think the more time the architect spends on a project them better it turns out.  And when I say internal shaping I mean using one's own people instead of outsiders who have to get used to what you want on the ground.  

well what would you say to the guys struggling to get in right now? Born in the 80s? Just born at the wrong time?

[Mike_Young]

TD,
I like the way the book Outliers deals with this type of subject. I think being born at the proper time is the most critical element.   I do think client and opportunity have a huge impact on when one does his best work and I would assume you are placing good site under opportunity.  If one is acquiring the right client, opportunity etc due to playing ability he might acquire these clients much earlier than someone who has been trying to acquire these same elements through his own work over the years.  But I think the most critical elements in doing one's best work after having the ability to acquire the client and the opportunity are  time and internal shaping.  I think the more time the architect spends on a project them better it turns out.  And when I say internal shaping I mean using one's own people instead of outsiders who have to get used to what you want on the ground.  

I'm afraid so. 


well what would you say to the guys struggling to get in right now? Born in the 80s? Just born at the wrong time?

[Randy Thompson]

Pete Dye did Teeth of the Dog at a fairly young age and remains one of his highest ranked courses, that is last time I looked. But to me,    its an exception when this happens!

[Ross Harmon]

Pete Dye did Teeth of the Dog at a fairly young age and remains one of his highest ranked courses, that is last time I looked. But to me,    its an exception when this happens!

Pete was 45 when Teeth of the Dog opened, about a dozen or so years into his career. However, with Radrick Farms, Crooked Stick, The Golf Club and Harbour Town already under his belt, he has some pretty good experience already at that point.

[Ian Andrew]

Is being a modern golf architect much the same?  The more experience you gain and the more courses you build you become more of a leader of a team with the same set of values rather than the tactical force behind the course?

Why? You don't have to choose to take on all work offered.
That's a choice that many make, but not all.

I'm on my own, no team, I don't think I'm the sole exception out there.

[Randy Thompson]

Ian you do the shaping also, rough and fine??