GCA and tastemeking

[Patrick_Mucci]

TEPaul,

I'm not saying you can't compare golf courses, only that you have to temper you views in light of the reason the golf course was built.

I think the members and future members of Friar's Head are fortunate because the motivation behind the creation of the club fits into a category that will more than likely produce a product with traditional or classic values, the ones we all admire.

Think how different the goals or ultimate product will be if Marriott builds a resort course for it's guests down the road.

Now, you can compare those two golf courses, but I think you have to adjust your evaluation, giving consideration to the motivation behind their creation, and the type of golfer intended to trod those sets of fairways.

I think the same adjustment has to be made if a gated community built another course another few miles further down the road.

Three courses, let's assume similar sites, but the outcome will be different for the Marriott and Community courses/products than Friar's Head.  And, I think you might agree, that the Marriott and Community course might be similar in that they would probably be designed to be more user friendly.

I would think that most of us hope that more visionary's like Ken Bakst will develop courses in the classic style that brought about the NGLA's, Seminole's, etc.,etc..   Time, the demand, and the economy will tell.

But, as long as community's and resorts continue to build golf courses, the ultimate product will differ by design.

[TEPaul]

Pat:

"I'm not saying you can't compare golf courses, only you have to temper your views in light of the reasons the golf couses were built?"

AHA.... Ok then, can we continue comparing, critiquing and bashing courses and their architecture but instead of comparing, critiquing and bashing the architect can we compare, critique and bash the reasons they were built the way they were?

[Tom Doak]

I always get a kick out of the fact that Ben Crenshaw is not considered a "name."  Of course he's a name!  The difference is that he has wrestled with the promotion of his name, instead of allowing clients to plaster it all over billboards [at Bill Coore's expense].

Yes, Shane and TE, a large part of the market is about selling real estate, and in those cases you want to appeal to the masses by picking a name they know.  But there are also that 30% of projects where dumb-ass non-golfers are not involved in the decision, and I don't know why an owner would want to pay more for a name then.  There's no proof that Jack Nicklaus' name on a public course generates any more play ... but it does guarantee higher costs.

As for tastemaking, I do think it's possible for this board to make a small difference, as THE CONFIDENTIAL GUIDE did.  However, I encourage all of you not to just base your opinions on your preference for different "names."  If you don't explain your reasons, this small pulpit will never turn an unknown designer into a name.

Building five or ten really good golf courses goes a lot further in most developers' eyes.

[TEPaul]

Tom Doak:

Good post-we can always count on you to say it just like you see it!

I like your remarks on Coore & Crenshaw a lot! Crenshaw may struggle sometimes with promoting his name in architecture, as you say, but I think that's more perception than reality. I think the way that team puts themselves out there is just the way they intended to put their themselves out there and I don't think they care to change that anytime soon. I'm sure not speaking for them but their basic modus operandi of working only three courses max simultaneously and generally only two seems to be what they very much want to stick with. They seem very comfortable that it works well for them. It seems like their underlying need to really truly, truly be on the same page with the people they work for and that those people are truly, truly on the same page with them might sort of keep their demand/supply ratio out of whack and probably more so into the future! If that turns out to be so I hope they would get into some thoughtful and serious referrals!

When you mentioned that only about 30% of potential clients are NOT dumb-ass non-golfers...., as you said, that sort of surprises me. I would have thought the percentage would be much lower than that! I'm assuming too that that particular percentage is the one you want to work with!

As for the effect or impact of Golfclubatlas on the direction of things in architecture I too would think it would be extremely small. We seem to annoy far more people than we influence or persuade anyway and I guess that's probably pretty representative of what's going on out there generally anyway!

I have seen some interesting results in the restoration area though--even personally, talking to people in clubs all over the place. These are mostly phone calls and emails and after that I really don't know where they're going, but it looks to me like they are starting out in the right direction and they all say they check in here now and then. So that's good, although real small in the grand scheme of things but I would hope it would extrapolate and continue to do so.

The best way for this site to really get some notice anyway is for the architects, supers and those in the business to get on here and more in force. People who are inclined to get on this site are likely to know who Doak, Hanse, Coore & Crenshaw, Forse, Prichard, Brauer, Echenrode, Moran and some of the others are but they sure aren't going to know who Tom Paul, Tom MacWood, Tommy Nacarrato are and even if they did what would it matter to them?

Professionals on here can do a ton for this site and I would like to think this site can do a little something for them--at least in the form of a forum to express their ideas, principles and such on architecture--and maybe push the envelope of public opinion just a little! It's not so much just the site, it's really the Internet and so far there're doesn't seem to be much competition to this site. And I'll tell you that all of us who frequent this site have overheard it discussed in the damnedest places by the damnedest people! Certainly not always favorably but it's gotten some attention!

As far as discussing on here not just favorite names but the reasons why we specifically like them and support their ideas, principles and architecture, I think we do that a lot. Many on here and elsewhere do say too narrowly though! People like you can help that effort so much too, because those of us who are on here most are trying to get a word out and learn at the same time, so we could sure use the help on both!

Personally, I think all there is to hope for is that the ideas promoted on here and by you guys will get a small slice of the pie eventually, but much larger than right now. I feel it coming though, I think a bit of a critical mass has already formed maybe even starting back farther than we sometimes think!

I'm not really the same as TommyN (although I admire his hope and passion) who appears to want to see the architecture we talk about sweep the world! That will never happen, in my opinion, but after a while I think the validity of it will get much more notice and start to move things more in that direction and increase the size it will have in the pie!

[Tommy_Naccarato]

Tom Paul,

OUR style of golf architecture WILL rule the world again someday. It is going to be a hard fight, and I will never sleep until it does!

-I will not rest until I know Jeff Brauer has gotten himself on Catapiller, knowing that the only way it is going to get properly done is by doing it himself!

-I will not rest until I know for a fact that Pat Mucci understands that courses like Garden City Golf Club are not PRODUCT.

-I will not rest until Tom Fazio makes a public announcement that he has wronged the greatest courses in the game by leaving his mark on them.

-I will not rest until the world knows that Robert Trent Jones is responsible for 80% of the bad architecture of the post WWII era (Late 40's 50's and 60's, all the way into the 70's and  80's) as well as changes made on some of the great classics in the game, simply to leave his mark and promote his name.

-They will not rest until they have pryed my keyboard away from my cold, dead, GI Joe Kung Fu grip!

And yes, I have the CONFIDENTIAL GUIDE as one of the great tools to thank for it!

[Patrick_Mucci]

TEPaul,

Sure, if you really know all the facts surrounding the creation of the golf course, I guess you could take issue with the concepts and/or principles that determined its outcome.

Shadow Creek would seem to be a prime example.

This course, and it's architect were bashed and criticized a good deal, and.... by many who had never seen or played the golf course, and... evidently by many who chose to IGNORE the reasons for the creation of the course.  Only after Doak and some other well respected voices decreed its worth did the criticism abate.

Now, go ahead, compare Friar's Head with Shadow Creek.

How can you criticize, bash etc.,etc.. the motives of the two personalities behind their development and creation.
They were built to serve two different masters, and I suspect both have/will be highly successful in their mission.

The "Golden Age" courses you/we so admire were built for individuals or a group of intdividuals who wanted good/great courses architectually, not unlike Ken Bakst's endeavor.

You have to differentiate intent when making comparisons, and I don't know how you can criticize/bash the prime movers idea or concept.*

* An exception.   I will remain critical of the golf course built at Spanish Bay, understanding the owners desire of creating a substantive hotel and golf course complex.  I think they missed a great opportunity.

Can one make the statement that no matter how good C & C are as architects, their modus operendi will prevent them from becoming prolific designers ?

The next question would be, because they are selective in only taking two assignments per year, what screening process do they use to refine and reduce the offers, resulting in their final selection ?

Is it the land ?
Is it the intended use ?
Is it the developer ?
Is it other factors ?
Is it a combination of the above ?

Would they build a course for Marriot/Hilton/Hyat
Would they build a course for a casino ?

If they are that selective, is that like the bypass surgeon who only operates on relatively healthy patients, leaving the critical or riskier operations, with noticeably higher mortality to other surgeons ?

[Tommy_Naccarato]

Pat, They have built a golf course for a casino, albeit an Indian gaming one at Talking Stick. You should go play it sometime. It's second hole is not only World Class, but it is also Prolific.

I would have to say that Coore & Crenshaw's clientele list is about as diverse as they come. Last time I checked Kapalua was known as having not only a world class resort, but its Plantation Course is known as the BEST course in Hawaii.

Roger Hansen sure doesn't seem to be too much of a slouch either.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Tommy Naccarato,

If I built an exact repllica of GCGC in New Jersey today,
would it be considered a PRODUCT ?

[Tommy_Naccarato]

Yes Pat, Absolutely, Where are they building this course?

[Patrick_Mucci]

Tommy Naccarato,

The location was outside of Princeton.

It wasn't to be an exact replica, but in the style and mode of GCGC.

The project is on hold pending a few issues, including the success of Back Brook, indecisiveness, and too many cooks.

[TEPaul]

Patrick:

It appears to me you have an extremely bizarre way of looking at Coore & Crenshaw, and I cannot imagine why. It seems that somehow the praise they get on here or elsewhere bothers you somehow.

I have good things to say about them simply because I really like the courses they've done that I've seen and I really like the way the operate and go about their trade!

And that long post of yours was to me and you asked how I can bash and criticize Shadow Creek! I want you to know I have never bashed or criticized Shadow Creek in any way! I've never been there and I've never seen the place except in a few photos and an aerial.

What I did say is that in my opinion if Wynn came to Coore and Crenshaw and asked them to do his vision of Shadow Creek--what it is today, in other words--I do not think they would have done it! I don't think they would have taken that project! I don't know that, they certainly never told me that, but that would be my opinion. It just doesn't look like something they would want to do to me. I don't believe they would really be on the same page with Wynn on that vision!

That in no way means I think Shadow Creek is a bad golf course or one worthy of bashing and criticism. Nothing of the kind!

I think you have this idea that any architect will do anything you want him to do, and Pat, I think you are very wrong about that! That is only my opinion!

[Tommy_Naccarato]

Pat,
Then that golf course wouldn't be an exact replica of Garden City now would it?

Product would be like Bear's Best where there is an attempt to build exact replica's of Jack's best golf holes at various sites around the country. an EXACT replica of Garden City in New Jersey would be PRODUCT. So which membership would you value more, or what course would you rather be playing--the real thing or some copy in New Jersey?

[Tim_Weiman]

Pat:

I wonder if you really mean to compare C&C with the surgeon who only operates on healthy patients.

While I don't know the criteria C&C use to select projects, I'm sure it isn't a matter of life and death.  Maybe Ben and Bill feel they can only handle a few projects at a time and still achieve the quality of work they seek to accomplish. I wouldn't fault them for that.

My experience seeing golf courses built is limited to Sand Ridge.  What impressed me is how many details the project team has to get right.  Frankly, I don't see how any architectural firm could handle more than a few projects at a time and do really good stuff.

[Patrick_Mucci]

TEPaul,

I like C & C, I'm just not prepared to elevate them to DEITY status to the EXCLUSION and RELEGATION of all others.  
Nor am I prone to accept, as THE GOSPEL, everything
Tom Doak, Ron Whitten or Brad Klein have to say.

I never said that YOU bashed or criticized Shadow Creek or Steve Wynn.

I think Steve Wynn and C & C are closer to being on the same page than you might think.

"Over time, Steve shared with me his ideas on golf.
I discovered he had been playing for some years,
had been to most of the great courses,
and had studied the game.
He talked about the styles of golf courses he liked,
the designers he favored, and his theories about those he admired.  He liked the flare and upsweep of bunkers
A. W. Tillinghast designed, and the contours and roll-offs he found on so many Donald Ross courses.
He discussed the aesthetics and environments of many of the top courses he had played:  the challenge and excitement of
Pine Valley; the balance and harmony of Quaker Ridge;
the beauty and setting of Cypress Point."....
"He mentioned courses like Seminole, Cypress Point, Quaker Ridge, San Fransisco Golf Club and Augusta National"

Sounds like one of us.

With respect to your last paragraph, I'm shocked  
You've seen the 18th at AppleBrook haven't you ?

                                                                        

[Tommy_Naccarato]

Pat, Other then touring a not finished Friars Head, How many C&C courses have you either played or seen?

Another thing is that knowing somewhat how C&C operate, having a person like Steve Wynn dictating architecture to Bill Coore would be like telling Moses how to part the Red Sea. Or for a better comparison Bill Coore telling Steve Wynn how to properly design and build a hotels and casinos.

Do you know how many times I have seen in interviews with Tom Fazio backstroking the clientele? The quote you have posted from the Shadow Creek book is one of many from different courses and different clients.

If you get a chance, check out the Quarry At La Quinta video tape where he says the same things about it, as he says about Shadow Creek, as he says about Black Diamond Ranch. It is truely high comedy, if not an inner-glimpse of how the top "Named" architects of the game today, work.

[TEPaul]

Pat:

Well, I'm glad you're not prepared to elevate anybody to "DEITY" status and what others say to the status of "GOSPEL".

Neither am I, and, "DEITY status to the EXCLUSION and RELEGATION of all others" are you're words and thoughts, definitely not mine! I've never said anything like that, never used those words or thought that way about any architect.

I just very much like what some of those you mentioned do, that's all. And about the exclusion and relegation part I guess you missed the positive things I said about Rees's Old Kinderhoook and the holes I saw in photos and during a site visit to The Bridge. And I guess you missed my mention of some of the excellent holes at Galloway National by Fazio. I guess you also mentioned a couple of holes by Coore & Crenshaw I wasn't too crazy about too.

As for the waterfall at Applebrook, that wasn't Coore & Crenshaw, it was Hanse and maybe you might like to know the FACTS behind that waterfall! That thing was presented to Gil very near to the time the course was completed--and the owner insisted on it. Gil, his team and hardly anyone else I've talked to thinks its a good idea but the owner wanted it and it got built--it's kind of a joke actually!

What would you or I expect Gil to do about that at that stage--plow up the course he'd built or walk out and deny any responsibility for Applebrook?

Sometimes people just like certain architecture better than other architecture and consequently the architects who do it better than others. It's not really a particularly hard concept to grasp.

I've felt for a while now that you believe that any architect is basically interchangeable with any other architect if an owner just tells him what he wants in detail. Just explains to any architect in detail what his vision is for a golf course. I've asked you about that many times Pat and you've never answered. Again, is that what you believe?

[BillV]

Tom and Patrick

At least that waterfall creates the stream to the right of 10 fairway!  A silver lining indeed!

[TEPaul]

I could be wrong but I believe the stream was there--maybe.

But you gotta look on the bright side as BillV is! It shows how adaptable and multi-optional Applebrook can be! Jarred Veriango actually has a big rheostat down in the maintenance barn that has settings for "small trickle stream", "normal stream" and "swift and gushing stream" depending on who he  needs to set the course up for that day!! An of course with the flick of a switch he can shut the whole thing off and have a "no stream" set up!

I mean come on guys, how cool is that? I bet Steve Wynn will be green with envy when he hears about that and will hustle on out and get himself one of those super cool rheostats!

[Patrick_Mucci]

Tommy Naccarato,

Golf courses that are designed and built are a PRODUCT.

MEMBERSHIPS, are what has been attracted to that product.

GCGC replica in N.J., which would I rather play ?
We're back to the NGLA vs Shinnecock debate, though the preference would be with the original, unless my remake had
the 12th hole in its original form, then I might opt for N.J.
Now that I think of it, perhaps # 5, # 14, # 7 and other holes will mirror those of 1936, so I'm starting to lean more to N.J. especially with the traffic.  

How many courses have C & C designed from scratch, and built in the Northeast ?  I've played one other C & C course, which I liked.  Was it great, no, but I liked alot about it.

What Wynn created in arid, barren, desolate, featureless land is a very good golf course.  You may not like its style, but its a good golf course, built for specific reasons, and at some point, you'll have to give the devil his due.

Tim,

I'm wasn't focused on life or death, I was talking about the impact on statistics of risk adjusted mortality.  In evaluating a hospital's coronary by-pass departments, the states adjust the statistics based on patient risk factors.  One simply can't say hospital A does better because their mortality is .01 %, when they only operate on healthy 45 year olds, while another hospital has a .04 % mortality factore but they operate on patients 65-85 years old, smokers, overweight with high blood pressure and diabetes.

Another Rossian question, does quantity dilute quality ?  

TEPaul,

I do know all the facts about the waterfall.

I spoke to the OWNER and Gil.

And... it wouldn't have mattered if it was decided by the owner in the begining, the middle or the end, the owner was going to insert that feature, imported from Palm Springs.
I really like AppleBrook, but I don't think you have an understanding of the influence an employer has on an employee, no matter what the field.

You hold a view that architects never compromise, that their architectual ideas are inviolate, and I don't agree with that.
I think positive results come from collaboration and flexibility.

I never said that architects are interchangeable, certainly their preference in stlyes differ, but, if a knowledgeable owner has a vision, and he brings in a number of capable architects, he will see his vision come to fruition.  

You of all people should have learned that at the 10 hole course at Pine Valley.  

How did Bandon Dunes turn out ?
How about Pacific Dunes?,  
How about Shadow Creek ?

Being a golf course architect takes a special talent, a rare talent, but good ideas or concepts aren't confined to seasoned golf course architects.   Crump, Crump, Crump.

A good idea doesn't have to come from a select source to be a good idea.  Pride of AUTHORSHIP has ruined many a project.
An idea of merit should prevail, irrespective of the source, wouldn't you agree ?  And, if you came up with a good idea or concept, or design feature on a course C & C were working on, should it be discarded because Tom Paul thought of it ?

[Tommy_Naccarato]

Pat, Your version of PRODUCT is exactly why you like Rees Jones' designs so much.

My version of that PRODUCT has him on a level similar to Tylenol without the protective seal. Coore and Crenshaw do not produce the types of designs you call PRODUCT. Each design holds it's own merit and is a tribute to what studying the art is all about. It isn't manufactured, it is REVEALED.

How can one produce Nature?

What was the one C & C design that you have played that you don't call GREAT, but you liked it a lot?

Have you ever read Robert Hunter's The Link's?

[TEPaul]

Pat:

It's just hardly worth talking about this anymore. You say I'm of the belief that architects never compromise that their ideas are inviolate.

I don't know where this stuff comes from with you. And what's this about Crump, Crump, Crump? Do you have any idea how many people he talked to? Do you realize that Pine Valley was probably the biggest and best COLLABORATIVE efforts in he history of architecture!!!! Did I ever say it wasn't? I've done a ton of research now on its creation and I'm getting a pretty good idea what happened and why some of the rumors that have been extant for so long have persisted!

I never once said I knew where all Crump's ideas or all the ideas in the creation of Pine Valley came from. All I said is this Pat, and read it carefully--I said when Crump was alive he made all the decisions in the creation of Pine Valley! He could have gotten advice or ideas from anyone or from anywhere but when it came to decision making time--he made the decisions--all of them. And that included if Harry Colt insisted on putting #2 green over to the left of where it is now. Crump's ultimate response? "No Good!"  And so it went!

You'd be absolutely amazed where and how Bill Coore gets some of the ideas for golf holes and their architecture. But you have to understand that what gets done he and Ben are going to be comfortable with. Just ask those they've worked with!

I don't know where all this deity, gospel stuff comes from with you. Can't you understand I just like them. They aren't perfect, I'm sure, I just think they're very very good. Why do you have a problem with that?

[Mark_Fine]

Interesting discussion.  I contend every golf course built by an architect for an owner or for golfers to play is a Product.  You guys can argue over the termonology but at the end of the day the architect is designing the course with certain "criteria" in mind.  He is doing more than just trying to build the best golf course he can.  That is only one part of the criteria he and every architect has to work under.  If he doesn't satisfy the guy paying his bills, the course as it stands won't last long.  Look at that brand new Norman course that was recently torn up because it was viewed as the "wrong product" for what the new owner wanted!  

C&C have designed some gems and I've played a number of them.  But they have also designed some, let's call them, less then great courses such as Talking Stick South and Notre Dame.  You don't hear much talk about those two do you  

By the way Tommy, I am amazed at what C & C "revealed" at Talking Stick North?  And I had always thought that course was manufactured from featureless flat land?  They fooled me  

Mark

[Tommy_Naccarato]

Mark,

All in line with your recent definitions and interpretations of the works of Robert Hunter, I'll stick by my more then secure thoughts of Talking Stick as a work that was REVEALED out of a less then gracious site.

As for the Talking Stick's South Course, while it may not be as worthy as it's sister, I found it to be a great golf course and worthy of all praise considering that it is in fact supposed to be a different course on the same type of "supposedly" miserable land to build golf courses on.  

What I saw were golf holes that were similar to the North Course as far as strategy is concerned, even a set of holes along it's East side that could be considered just as good as  some on the North.

Yes, the trees were small and no doubt have grown larger since I was there last, and while trees were not natural to the site, I'm sure it will show a different LOOK then the North in the future.

It is here I have to ask, How come Rees Jones and Tom Fazio, two of the biggest names in architecture have failed to produce anything of worthy* merit on the same types of sites? Especially after all of that earthmoving for mounds and containment?

(*Depending on your thoughts of Estancia and Grayhawk.)

Between the two courses, which took more talent and less money to build--Estancia or Talking Stick?

To you, a member of a very NATURAL club--Lehigh CC, How do you even compare something so Artifiical as a Shadow Creek to a very natural Talking Stick? (A course with minimal earthmovement) Where do you think Bill Coore got the dirt to create this golf course? Do you feel that Tom Fazio could have created something far more natural at Shadow Creek, in the same vein as a Talking Stick (Minimal earthmovement world class golf holes.)

[Jeff_Brauer]

Tommy,

Oh, I have been on a caterpiller..... I built one green and accidentally destroyed a non consequential building!

I'll stick to envisioning, drawing and waving my arms in the field while the expert operator implements the vision.

[Jeff_Brauer]

Tommy,

Oh, I have been on a caterpiller..... I built one green and accidentally destroyed a non consequential building!

I'll stick to envisioning, drawing and waving my arms in the field while the expert operator implements the vision.