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David Wigler

  • Karma: +0/-0
Crenshaw is going to play golf
« on: January 10, 2002, 10:24:50 AM »
Two weeks from now, Ben Crenshaw starts his Senior Tour odyssey.  This means no more missed cuts and no more open weekends.  He has already committed to play in the first three events.  Does this foreshadow the end of C&C or a dramatic cutback in the quality of work that they do (I won't say quantity since Tom Paul has already pointed out that they don't do a quantity of work anyway).

Crenshaw has really not been competitive since the mid 90's (With the exception of the Masters week in '95) and this has given him the time needed to focus on architecture.  Many of the architects on this site have pointed out that you are either a player or an architect.  I suspect that Crenshaw will be a player on the senior tour.  What is the consensus on what affect this will have on C&C?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
And I took full blame then, and retain such now.  My utter ignorance in not trumpeting a course I have never seen remains inexcusable.
Tom Huckaby 2/24/04

Jim_Kennedy

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Crenshaw is going to play golf
« Reply #1 on: January 10, 2002, 11:34:37 AM »
David,
I would suspect that as a team they would have made an effort to accomodate both of their desires without interfering with current or future projects. Everything I've ever seen written about Ben Crenshaw has been a positive. His love of tradition coupled with his respect for those who preceded him in the game and in architecture is well documented. Also, Bill Coore was an accomplished architect, who shared the same passions as Crenshaw, before their association and there is no reason, that I can see, to believe that the quality of their work will suffer because Ben is off  playing in some Senior Tour events. By all accounts, the Snr.Tour is not as rigorous or time consuming as the regular Tour so it is likely that he will be able to devote an adequate amount of time to architecture. His presence there, along with Fuzzy's, will give the Snr. Tour a much needed shot in the arm.  
 
The soon-to-be  cash flow Ben Crenshaw will undoubtedly be the beneficiary of will lessen any pressures on their joint venture and probably enable them to remain super-competitive as a "name" firm.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:01 PM by -1 »
"I never beat a well man in my life" - Harry Vardon

TEPaul

Re: Crenshaw is going to play golf
« Reply #2 on: January 10, 2002, 11:38:42 AM »
Absolutely, absolutely not! Crenshaw's senior tour schedule will not effect the quantity or the quality of the company's work one iota! I will guarantee you of that!

Of course there will be those who say that Crenshaw is just a "headliner" name on the company like some of the other tour pros, or that now he will be because of this senior tour schedule. Those people don't know much about Crenshaw and they definitely don't know how the team works and always has worked.

Crenshaw is anything but the typical "Tour pro architect" and he never has been. The reality of the working relationship of that company is that Bill Coore is on site and involved in the day to day about 90% more than Ben and it's always been that way. They've been together for about 15+ years and during a ton of that time Crenshaw maintained a pretty full regular tour schedule although he has missed a ton of cuts in recent years.

And one of the other real keys to the team and the company are the guys who work in the field with them and have for a long time--they've all been together a long time now--these are the ones who are getting semi-famous in one way or another now and are the ones called "The Boys".

But mostly you have to understand how talented Crenshaw is and also how the two of them have an unusually "symbiotic" relationship with this stuff the way they've done it and will continue to do it. And lastly, you have to understand how talented Bill Coore is!

Nothing will change--not the quality either.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

David Wigler

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Crenshaw is going to play golf
« Reply #3 on: January 10, 2002, 12:16:45 PM »
Tom,

I am thrilled to read what you wrote.  The reason for my post was exactly that Crenshaw is not another "Tour Player Architect."  I never once got the impression that Crenshaw would let Coore do all the work and mail in his name for the press releases (Like Arnold Palmer and Ed Seay).  Do you believe then that Crenshaw will pull back even further on the quantity of courses he is designing (If that is possible)?  Assuming Crenshaw experiences the success that you would figure he would (Courses are 600 yards shorter, which favors short games and virtually negates the length disadvantage he has had for some years now against the flat bellies) he will be tied up close to 30 weeks playing (Once Majors are factored in).  Given that Ben is a devoted family man and an avid outdoorsman (From what I have read, I have never met him), that does not leave a lot of time for course design.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
And I took full blame then, and retain such now.  My utter ignorance in not trumpeting a course I have never seen remains inexcusable.
Tom Huckaby 2/24/04

Ben Cowan-Dewar

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Crenshaw is going to play golf
« Reply #4 on: January 10, 2002, 01:11:39 PM »
I do not know Ben Crenshaw, but we interviewed him last year and the very question I asked him was:


In January 2002, you will qualify for the Senior Tour, is that in the cards?  How will it affect your design business?

His answer:
BC:  BILL COORE AND I WILL CONTINUE TO TAKE THE DESIGN BUSINESS AT A REASONABLE PACE.  WE LIKE TO SPEND TIME ON EACH JOB, SO WE DON’T TAKE ON MORE THAN TWO PROJECTS AT A TIME.  I DO PLAN ON PLAYING QUITE A BIT ON THE SENIOR TOUR BEGINNING IN JANUARY, PROBABLY 20-22 EVENT A YEAR.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Peter Galea

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Crenshaw is going to play golf
« Reply #5 on: January 10, 2002, 02:17:57 PM »
GREAT!!! I can't wait to see more of that silky stroke, from one of the greatest, if not the greatest, putters the game has ever seen. :) This post has made my day!
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
"chief sherpa"

Richard Chamberlain

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Crenshaw is going to play golf
« Reply #6 on: January 10, 2002, 03:17:42 PM »
Call me dumb, call me stupid....but is Ben Crenshaw really 50 ?
Surely not...can't be...check his birth certificate...where do the years go ?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Jim_Kennedy

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Crenshaw is going to play golf
« Reply #7 on: January 10, 2002, 04:31:09 PM »
Here is an article with Ben about his future on Tour, what he's been up to lately and some comments about Augusta National

http://www.golftransactions.com/fivequestions/crenshaw011002.html

« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
"I never beat a well man in my life" - Harry Vardon

Mike_Cirba

Re: Crenshaw is going to play golf
« Reply #8 on: January 10, 2002, 08:30:37 PM »
Dr. Kildare,

I know what you're feeling.

Somewhere, in a box in my closet, sits a Golf Magazine from around 1973 with young Ben on the cover, wearing a nice set of plaid bellbottom slacks, thick head of blonde hair bowed in the address position.  It could have been yesterday as memory serves.

Earlier that year, I had followed him for all 18 holes of a pro-am at the CC of Scranton, where he had stopped to play a slight few weeks after turning professional.

Cursed with the "next Nicklaus" title, I remember him as a gentle, passionate soul even then, and his post-round interview went to great lengths to point out his passion for "the old, classic courses that are so prevalent in the northeast that are so much fun to play".  

Without meaning the slightest affront to any other modern golf hero, I'd venture to say that not since Bobby Jones has any other person so consistently upheld and advanced the true meaning and values of the game.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Richard Chamberlain

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Crenshaw is going to play golf
« Reply #9 on: January 11, 2002, 02:28:04 AM »
Mike

I was at a Seniors event at Barton Creek in Austin in "94 and
I was also fortunate enough to hold a pass that got me into the clubhouse and locker rooms.

Late on the Sunday arvo Ben lobbed into the locker room, and my buddy introduced me to him. We went to the bar, had a couple of beers and I swear it was the probably the most delightful 45 minutes of my life.

I don't know what it was, maybe I was a bit awestruck by the surprise meeting, but he really had a unique charisma about him. After about two mouthfuls of my beer he had already displayed the kindness and warmth of his personality.
You knew it was genuine too.

« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

TEPaul

Re: Crenshaw is going to play golf
« Reply #10 on: January 11, 2002, 05:26:11 AM »
Recognizing that Pat might start yelling idolization, I've only met Ben Crenshaw one time. It's Bill Coore that I know so much better.

But that one time was at Friar's Head when it was under construction or let's say under conceptualization. If you like architecture, and particularly if you like Coore & Crenshaw's stuff, it was great because they were all there--Bill and Ben and almost all "The Boys". I thought it was just going to be Bill but apparently Ben had arrived on the spur of the moment and I felt that I was barging in on a very important working session and apparently I might have been.

But Ben was much nicer than even I'd heard he was. He seemed smaller than I thought too. He seemed almost too small to be the great golfer that he was or is! A guy who is that nice sometimes makes a former New Yorker, such as myself, feel a little like a bull in a china shop--but anyway!

But apropos of this particular topic of whether or not the quality of their work will decline with Crenshaw going on the Senior Tour, it gave me a glimpse of the way they work together, always have and hopefully always will.

Their modus operandi again is mostly Bill Coore (and the Boys) in time on site, but Ben has all the oversight he needs and that's a lot, to my understanding. But it's never taken all that much of his time and the reason for that is you really do have to understand how the two of them work together or actually how all of them work together. It really is unusually symbiotic, and it's quite obvious to me because they all know each other so well and what each other thinks. These fellows don't have to deal with site specific architects, assistants and shapers and contractors and such that are unfamiliar to them and need to be on some instant learning curve. You combine that fact with a ton of real talent and you basically have a company that is very unusual in this day and age! And you combine that too with their two course per year schedule and understanding how and why they can do what they do becomes obvious!

So here they were conceptualizing particularly on Friar's #5. I certainly wanted to hear what they were saying but the two of them are basically such quiet soft spoken guys and the fact that neither one exactly fills the air with words I had a real hard time hearing them--just little bits of things--and what I did hear was impressive beyond belief!! To really hear them I would have had to put my head about an inch from them and even for a former New Yorker that just didn't seem appropriate at the time.

They were conceptualizing about the hole, the way the ball would react or bounce and play and the way various golfers would react to those possibilities combined with a bit of construction thoughts and arm-waving construction ideas!

No plans, no topos, no nothing, just good old fashioned "in the field" architectural conceptualization. I've been back a few times and BTW, that #5 is one of the coolest little par 4s I ever saw in my life! Different looking and a bit of a varied concept but it's going to be able to stick its little head right up there with the likes of Riviera's #10!

But, again, I really do feel nothing will change wiht them in the future!
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

David Wigler

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Crenshaw is going to play golf
« Reply #11 on: January 11, 2002, 05:40:29 AM »
Tom,

In the arena of first hand knowledge of architects, I am truly a neophyte.  Can you (Or anyone) compare or contrast that relationship with the one that Palmer and Seay had or Weiskopf and Morrish.  I am curious if Palmer and Weiskopf had the same level of input.  I have always wondered how much of the blame Palmer should shoulder for the general mediocrity of what Palmer and Seay produced.  You post leads me to believe that Crenshaw rightly deserves the credit he gets (And would rightly deserve the blame if there ever was any).  Do Palmer and Weiskopf fit in this same boat?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
And I took full blame then, and retain such now.  My utter ignorance in not trumpeting a course I have never seen remains inexcusable.
Tom Huckaby 2/24/04

TEPaul

Re: Crenshaw is going to play golf
« Reply #12 on: January 11, 2002, 05:45:11 AM »
Dave:

I'm sort of a neophyte myself and the only architects I've watched work are Coore and Crenshaw and Gil Hanse and Ron Prichard a little bit. I've never seem any of the others you mentioned so I have no idea how they would compare to what I described there.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Anthony_Nysse

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Crenshaw is going to play golf
« Reply #13 on: January 11, 2002, 05:56:20 AM »
Mr. Paul,
   #5 at Friar's-Very neat hole!!! May be one of the most fun out there!!
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
Anthony J. Nysse
Director of Golf Courses & Grounds
Apogee Club
Hobe Sound, FL