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Tim_Weiman

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The Cost of Clearing Trees
« on: January 08, 2002, 11:19:18 AM »
I am trying to understand the economics of building a golf course on a heavily wooded property verses building on farm land that requires minimal tree clearing.

Suppose you had 200 acres and, all else being equal, were trying to budget construction costs for these two kinds of properties.

How much of a premium would you have to pay for clearing trees on a heavily wooded property?

Also, suppose the developer was concerned about not losing the character of the land (e.g., little bumps and hollows), how would this change things?

What would an emphasis on preserving the character of land mean during the tree clearing process?  How would it be done? How much more would it cost?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
Tim Weiman

Jeff_Brauer

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Re: The Cost of Clearing Trees
« Reply #1 on: January 08, 2002, 11:28:37 AM »
Tim,

Clearing heavy woods costs about $2000 per acre in most cases.  Federal Regs require hand clearing of wetlands, at about $3000, but the quantity is usually small.  Brushing (taking out small understory trees and brush in an area to remain wooded) costs about $1500/acre.

I typically clear about 120-135 acres in a wooded site for golf only.  On a project in Minnesota right now, we have 147 Acres, but that includes clubhouse and parking.  So total cost of clearing is about $250-300K.

The clearing operations do not save any subtle ground forms very well.  You can just about forget it.  You are lucky if you even have any topsoil left in most cases.

Of course, on an open site, most owners want to plant back a certain amount of trees, which can easily surpass the cost of clearing.  There are hidden costs of building in the woods, including poor air circulation and sunlight problems, especially for greens and tees.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Patrick_Mucci

Re: The Cost of Clearing Trees
« Reply #2 on: January 08, 2002, 04:56:17 PM »
Tim and Jeff,

Some jurisdictions can require selective clearing, allowing for the clearing of one kind of tree, but restricted clearing of other species, with inspections and supervision hampering any deviations or mistakes.  

Costs can go up substantially when complicating factors and fines are involved.

Clearing underbrush and small trees in a Cypress head can run up the tab pretty quickly.  
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Tim_Weiman

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Re: The Cost of Clearing Trees
« Reply #3 on: January 08, 2002, 05:32:38 PM »
Jeff Brauer:

Thanks for your response.

I was particularly interested in your comment that one can forget about saving subtle ground forms.  Are you aware of any industry colleagues who take a different view on this point?  Can you play devil's advocate on this?  Is there really no way?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
Tim Weiman

Bill_Overdorf

Re: The Cost of Clearing Trees
« Reply #4 on: January 08, 2002, 08:56:56 PM »
Tim, I have always felt that landform loss due to clearing is typically due to a lack of on-site superintendence of the methods used in the clearing process and the mindset of the clearing contractor's operators overall.

I agree with Jeff's base figure of about $2,000 per acre, but many factors exist that can appreciably impact this figure. If cleared materials can be disposed by incineration (open air burning) and involve primarily easy-to-handle woods, the cost may be actually reduced to around $1,500 per acre, but in cases where disposal must be made by chipping and hauling to off-site locations, costs may escalate to perhaps $7,500 an acre.

In certain areas where tree growth presents merchantable species, some value may be returned by intelligent marketing of logs, but the downside of this is the added time and cost of selective procedures. Added consideration is the fact that each tree removed leaves a stump that, through one process or another, requires enough wood product to support incineration of the mass of the stump. No easy task when one considers the process of burning a large log with little or no kindling. A match is only one element.

Clearing costs extend far beyond the matter of falling the trees, assembling a uniform, soil-free pile of woody material and managing a controlled burn that conforms with all ecological restrictions in place at that time. Site conditions must be a major consideration due to the fact that future golf course development operations include final preparation work prior to seeding. All woody residue tracked into the site must be completely extricated from the soil prior to seedbed preparation. This cost can be major if site superintendence has been lax during initial clearing operations. It can be a nightmare if so allowed. The designer's specifications weigh very heavily.

When one considers that golf course site preparation involves moving from what exists, through what is required to provide the desired end product, the value of on-site presence and awareness by the architect is cannot be overstated. If day-to-day operations are conducted with sufficient awareness, site conditions will not be allowed to create an inverse condition of the tail wagging the dog with downstream implications.

Tree growth conditions is another matter that can appreciably impact cost of clearing. We find ourselves on the threshhold of a new eighteen hole project on a site that was selectively logged about ten years in the past, resulting in a very dense regrowth of alder, almost in the form of weed growth. The resultant clearing involves many acres of immature trees that are difficult to clear in that they must be selectively picked out of the surface by the corner of a blade which is very time consuming as compared to falling a mature tree by placing the blade at a high point and using the tree's trunk strength to push it over.

The topic of site feature disturbance is another matter that closely relates to on-site presence by the golf course architect. If this consideration is a valid concern, it must relate once again to the designer's position in the overall scheme of the project. As an example, if a golf course architect is blessed with a site of the scope of Bandon Dunes, its sister product Pacific Dunes by Doak or C&C's Sand Hills work, the designer had best respect the project's potential value and pay close heed to what the on-site folks are doing in their day to day activities. It all boils down to the extent the architect is prepared to contribute to the work at hand. ;D

« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Tim_Weiman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Cost of Clearing Trees
« Reply #5 on: January 08, 2002, 09:10:45 PM »
Bill Overdorf:

Let me put you on the spot.

To an untrained amateur like myself, there appears to be a significant differance between Bandon Dunes and Pacific Dunes on the subject of land disturbance.  Bandon Dunes appears to have bulldozed away subtle contours; at Pacific Dunes the subtle stuff appears to have been preserved.

Assuming this was the case, I'm still trying to understand the economics.

Which is more expensive to do?  How much more expensive?  Or is the real difference something other than money, e.g., what some people would call "craftsmanship"?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
Tim Weiman

Jeff_Brauer

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Re: The Cost of Clearing Trees
« Reply #6 on: January 09, 2002, 05:59:43 AM »
Tim,

I was thinking especially of preserving subtle ground features in a deeply wooded area, not a site like Sand Hills or Pac Dunes that doesn't have a lot of trees.  When the logger gets in there, pushes over trees, drags them to the burn pile, digs a hole to bury them, etc. the ground looks pretty much like those Matthew Brady photographs of post battle civl war sites.

Speaking of the civil war, my first solo design was in Atlanta (Brookstone 1987) and was in Sherman's path.  We compared old and new maps and determined that Thomas' Ohio Cannon brigade had crossed Pumpkinvine Creek on a natural rock formation adjacent to our 14th green.  We preserved and worked around that historic feature, only to find an engineer ran a gravity sewer line there (in the valley naturally) and blasted it out before opening day.

I know I have told other stories about trying hard to preserve land forms, only to see them bulldozed, smoothed or otherwise altered despite my best efforts.  In this business, you learn that the typical (I say typical) equipment operator doesn't have quite the same sensitivity as we do.  In reality, just as it's easier to build a new clubhouse rather than renovate the old buildings as desired by Todd Eckinrode on another thread, most often, subtle ground features are simply destroyed by large construction equipment and are easier to rebuild than save, especially on a wooded site.

Not a PC answer, I know, but I do know that I have learned not to fall in love with a tree or feature unless I am willing to chain myself to it a la the environmental protestors.  As Ben Franklin said, "Expect the least, and you cannot be dissapointed".  I'm pretty sure he was talking about working with equipment operators. ;)
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Tim_Weiman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Cost of Clearing Trees
« Reply #7 on: January 09, 2002, 07:35:12 AM »
Jeff:

Thanks.  I think I did get off track with the question about Bandon I put to Bill.

It sounds like you are sticking to your view that when clearing a wooded site it is almost impossible to avoid land disturbance.

No disrespect, but I'm real curious to see if someone else will weigh in on the other side.  I am just trying to get at what is practical, doable etc., and at what cost?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
Tim Weiman

Jim_Kennedy

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Re: The Cost of Clearing Trees
« Reply #8 on: January 09, 2002, 08:38:01 AM »
Tim,
I'm a bit confused when reading this thread. What is your definition of a subtle land form? Are you talking about saving a swale or just keeping the broader topography intact?    


« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
"I never beat a well man in my life" - Harry Vardon

Tim_Weiman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Cost of Clearing Trees
« Reply #9 on: January 09, 2002, 01:04:38 PM »
Jim Kennedy:

Good question.  I guess I was thinking about preserving whatever was there in the first place, both general topography and little swales, bumps, hollows, etc.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
Tim Weiman

Tom Doak

Re: The Cost of Clearing Trees
« Reply #10 on: January 10, 2002, 07:52:37 PM »
Tim,

I guess it depends on how subtle a landform you mean.  Black Forest was solid trees to start, and there's still a lot of movement left in it, but not the kind of stuff at Pacific Dunes.  [Pacific Dunes' trees weren't nearly so thick or deeply rooted, so we could pluck them out individually.]

We cleared a lot of the back nine at High Pointe by hand -- four guys, a small tractor and a chain -- that was Gil Hanse's first job in the golf construction business.

I also thought that Bill and Ben did a great job of clearing at Cuscowilla.

Jeff is right, it's probably cheaper just to blitz through there and then try to shape subtle features back in, if the trees are thick.  But, if they're really good, you can take your time.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Tim_Weiman

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Re: The Cost of Clearing Trees
« Reply #11 on: January 10, 2002, 08:25:51 PM »
Tom,

Let's take the little bump in front of #10 green at Black Forest.  Was that found and preserved?  Or was it created after clearing?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
Tim Weiman

Mike_Young

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Re: The Cost of Clearing Trees
« Reply #12 on: January 11, 2002, 06:23:28 AM »
In the south clearing is about $2000 per acre as Jeff has stated.  He also states the main problem with clearing and that is equipment operators.  It seems that many Golf contractors (and also developers) want the site clearted before the construction contract begins.  If an operator that does not have knowledge of a Golf site does the clearing much can be damaged.  Anyone can clear the center of the fairway but the edges and the select clearing are different matters.  The vibration and compaction of a large dozer can kill a tree a year or more after a course opens.  An inexperienced operator can fell a tree into the top of a specimen tree in a second.  To me clearing is many times the most complicated and critical part of the job.
  I consider clearing in five phases.  FYI I have attached some specs that I use so that when the local logger tells the owner he can clear for $750 per acre he will know what he is up against.  PAY WHAT IT TAKES TO HAVE IT CLEARED CORRECTLY

TYPES OF CLEARING

Centerline Clearing - Beginning at tee stake and continuing to the green stake, clear a path the width of the bulldozer.  

Phase I - From the three hundred foot (300') stake to the eight hundred foot (800') turn, clear fifty feet (50') to each side of centerline, for a total width of one hundred feet (100').  At tees, clear a thirty foot (30') radius from tee stake, then continue clearing to connect to the one hundred foot (100') width previously established at the three hundred foot (300') stake.  From the eight hundred foot (800') stake to the green center, clear fifty feet (50') to each side of centerline, for a total width of one hundred feet (100').  At greens, clear a fifty foot (50') radius from green center stake.

Phase II - Before Phase II, the Owner will mark property lines to avoid encroachment.  Clear beyond fairway edges into rough areas to the distances indicated on Architect's Plans.

Phase III - Following Architect's Plans, thin edges of fairways by removing all trees 4 inches (4") in diameter or smaller, or as directed by Owner and Architect, to a depth of approximately thirty feet (30') from Phase II clearing boundaries.  

Grubbing - Excavate and/or remove stumps, roots larger than three-quarter inches (3/4") in diameter, matted roots, logs, other organic debris, trash, miscellaneous unwanted structures, and metallic debris from the areas designated on Architect's plans to a depth of not less than eighteen inches (18") below the original surface level of the ground embankment areas and not less than two feet (2') below the finished earth surface in excavated areas.  Fill depressions made by grubbing with suitable material and compact to make the surface conform with the original adjacent surface of the ground.

DISPOSAL OF CLEARED MATERIALS

Dispose of cleared materials in accordance with local rules and regulations by removing and dumping or by burning and burying on site.  Bury materials, only in non-play areas as identified by Architect, by covering with fill and compacting with bulldozer every vertical twelve inches (12") until materials are covered with a minimum of three feet (3') of compacted fill.  Architect will approve all bury sites and may require Contractor to install tile drain, at Contractor's expense, in bury sites that may trap water.

Contractor is responsible for all costs in connection with disposing of cleared materials, as well as for all liability of any nature resulting from the disposal of cleared materials.
Mike Y.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

Tim_Weiman

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Re: The Cost of Clearing Trees
« Reply #13 on: January 11, 2002, 06:27:36 AM »
Mike,

Thanks.  It sounds like the potential for shoddy work is high.

How important is proper supervision?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
Tim Weiman

Mike_Young

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Re: The Cost of Clearing Trees
« Reply #14 on: January 11, 2002, 06:30:31 AM »
I think you would prefer to have an assoc on site marking as they go when it comes to the edges and the select clearing.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

Jeff_Brauer

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Re: The Cost of Clearing Trees
« Reply #15 on: January 11, 2002, 06:34:48 AM »
Tim,

Obviously, if your fairway area has a twenty foot uphill slope, that won't be changed, but a two foot bump might be.  In my reply, I was thinking of little land forms, and also of a current heavy clearing project in the northwoods of Minnesota, with heavy clay and ledgerock and boulders below.  

That type of soil and subsoil, combined with the time of year it is cleared, produces lots of ruts from heavy machinery.  Also, the owner has contracted with a logger to take the pulpwood and they usually leave a mess.  On the other hand, the owner gets about $500 acre for the wood.  Oddly, enough, he still pays the golf contractor about $2000 for cleaning up the stumps, etc., but it still saves him some money.   It is easier and cleaner to just push the trees out in one operation without logging them, but not as environmentally sensitive as reusing the wood for other puproses.  So, the owner elected to use the natural materials on site, but it costs the preservation of small natural features.

Frankly, most professional architects, with Tom Doak perhaps being the exception, or at least being more "PC," route and design holes considering the broad expanse of topography of a given hole.  For example, trying to get a dogleg left on left sloping topography to avoid a reverse dogleg slope that might not contain tee shots, locating the hole so a fairway bunker can be positioned easily/naturally in a gentle upslope, etc.  

Finding a gentle knob that really falls into the right place is actually pretty rare, at least on sites I usually work on.  A Pacific Dunes would be different.  My new Quarry Course in Minnesota had some special features that we made good use of  but I can't call them natural, since they were mining remnants.  In fact there was one feature - a series of mine excavations about 20 foot deep that provide a visual hazard and forced carry of the sixth tee - that I insisted not be touched, and the contractor complied.  After the hole was built, I did decided to go in and take the top 2' off the ridges to get better vision down the fairways.  Unitl now, I would be the only one who knew that happened.  That 2' is not natural now, in theory, but it is a far better golf hole.

I recall remodeling a prominent local club a few years back, basically installing a much needed drainage system.  Of course, the fairway grades were increased, and there had to be a few high spots as part of that.  One member called my house at 11PM one night and demanded I come out to see a little ridge I added in the fairway.  "That's exactly where my tee shot lands, and it will deflect my shot into the rough."  I offered to watch him hit a dozen 255 yard tee shots right to that spot, but he declined the offer.

The point is, that many golfers, inlcuding amateur and hobby architects would look at a 2 foot knob, and consider it very important to save.  Most architects would look at broader considerations in the topography, rather than look at one little knob.  After all, that club member thinks he consistently hits a 20 square foot area 250 yards away, but he doesn't.  How can such a small area be expected to really influence play consistently enough to build around it?  It can't, unless it happens to fall right at a green entrance or side.  Then it can be saved. Anywhere in the fairway (a bigger, longer target with people hitting to a general area) is far less likely to influence play as well as a man made feature placed where it is really needed.

But in reality, after clearing, there are also some shaping operations, general construction traffic, irrigation and drainage installation, fertilizing, and then grassing.  That two foot knob is going to get far more action during construction than it will ever see from falling golf balls, and it will almost never be preserved exactly as it was.  In fact, if I was using it as a feature, I would probably double it's height to account for the beating it was going to take before grassing, as well as nature's tendency to erode things to a flatter state.

All in all, that little knob could only survive modern construction as a mere representation of it's former self.  Of course, although machinery is bigger, I don't think that things have changed all that much, as frankly, Golden Age architects spent more time, IMHO, and based on study shaping approaches to greens than we do, because the approach was a more important component when run ups were common.

 I say this thinking mostly of MacKenzie courses, like Royal Sydney and Melbourne, and the Cypress Point.  If you look in Geoff's club history book, you will see that the Doctor fashioned many approaches artificially.  In fact, many have a gentle concave slope to the middle, which helps balls driect on the green, and makes the green present better.  Frankly, this strikes me as similar conceptually to - gasp - a Fazio concept!

Let the discussoion continue!

« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Tim_Weiman

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Re: The Cost of Clearing Trees
« Reply #16 on: January 11, 2002, 06:47:32 AM »
Jeff,

Thanks.  It's nice to stick to an architecture topic and not get into advocacy of particular architects.

I take your point about broad expanse.  Clearly, that must be done.  The little stuff, though, has the potential to increase the interest one might have in playing a golf hole.  I agree this is more likely to be true around greens, but it sure is nice when you encounter little rolls and knobs in fairways as well.

Fazio, by the way, put a little knob in front of #6 at Wild Dunes.  I always felt it added quite a bit to the challenge of the approach shot.

« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
Tim Weiman