What if? Raynor at Cypress Point.

[Chip Gaskins]

I have had a few questions about this.

Specifically Jim asked "I wonder which templates Raynor would have laid out and where. " which we talked about many times as we played Fishers Island.

Here are a few of my ideas, though it would be great to hear from Tom Doak, Geoff Shackelford, George Bahto, etc

ASSUMING the (never seen before) Raynor routing was similar, which holes lend themselves well to a MacRaynor.

#2 would be a great Cape hole off the tee

#3 would be a fantastic Eden


#7 A magnificent reverse Redan


#8 Alps (can you have an Alps on the tee shot?)


#10 Road


#13 Double Plateau


#15 Short
Can you imagine a Short with the proper bunkering, thumbprint green, and howling 20 mph wind!



#16 225 yard Biarritz

[Ryan Farrow]

What if pigs could fly?

[michael damico]

#16 225 yard Biarritz

if a Biarritz was one of the most photographed holes in all of golf, what would the repercussions of that alone?

[Jim Nugent]

At ANGC, Mackenzie thought he did create some templates, or at least some sort-of templates.  4 and 6 were his versions of the Eden and Redan.  7 was the home hole at TOC.   

Did he do the same thing at CPC? 

[Tom_Doak]

Chip:

Nobody knows exactly what was Raynor's routing plan for Cypress Point.  However, MacKenzie did two plans -- one after he first saw the site [and perhaps had a look at Raynor's work], and then the second, final plan after he'd had a few months to think about it.

One of the main differences between the two plans is the stretch of holes 6-7-8 ... doubling back on #7 wasn't part of the original plan.  So, one would guess, it was not a hole that Raynor found, either.  So it wasn't ever scheduled to be a goddamned reverse Redan.

Anybody can lay templates on a map, especially if it's all theoretical and they don't have to fit the site at all.

[Chip Gaskins]

So it wasn't ever scheduled to be a goddamned reverse Redan.

Whoa...sorry Tom, evidently this hole has been a point of contention in the past, unbeknownst me.  I certainly wasn't saying what the Good Dr did at Cypress is anything but magnificent, I was just saying you could see some natural sites there now that Raynor MAY have also seen in his original routing.  And that original routing could have been in some ways similar to what we see now at Fishers Island.  Sorry to elicit such contempt.

[Bill_McBride]

So it wasn't ever scheduled to be a goddamned reverse Redan.

Whoa...sorry Tom, evidently this hole has been a point of contention in the past, unbeknownst me.  I certainly wasn't saying what the Good Dr did at Cypress is anything but magnificent, I was just saying you could see some natural sites there now that Raynor MAY have also seen in his original routing.  And that original routing could have been in some ways similar to what we see now at Fishers Island.  Sorry to elicit such contempt.

  .    That WAS a strong reaction!

I think #3 is a better representation of the Eden as it sits today than some of the CBM/Raynor holes.   Is it possible the front ("Strath") bunker may have been closer to the front of the putting surface at one time?

[Rick Shefchik]

I think we've kicked around possible alternative greens to the current 16th before, and I still come back to the same conclusion: tarting up that green would be like putting frosting on frosting.

I love Biarritz greens; there are far too few of them, in my opinion. But they can be used almost anywhere. I would build them where the topography of the hole is otherwise nothing special. That's clearly not the case at #16. There, it's the right call to just let a player savor a tee shot that makes the green.

[Bill_McBride]

I think we've kicked around possible alternative greens to the current 16th before, and I still come back to the same conclusion: tarting up that green would be like putting frosting on frosting.

I love Biarritz greens; there are far too few of them, in my opinion. But they can be used almost anywhere. I would build them where the topography of the hole is otherwise nothing special. That's clearly not the case at #16. There, it's the right call to just let a player savor a tee shot that makes the green.

Rick, I think Chip may have been harkening back to the ORIGINAL Biarritz in France, where the tee shot was played over a chasm, much like the ocean inlet that has to be carried at CP.  I don't think he was advocating a Biarritz-style green. 

But as always I could be wrong!

[Chip Gaskins]

I think we've kicked around possible alternative greens to the current 16th before, and I still come back to the same conclusion: tarting up that green would be like putting frosting on frosting.

I love Biarritz greens; there are far too few of them, in my opinion. But they can be used almost anywhere. I would build them where the topography of the hole is otherwise nothing special. That's clearly not the case at #16. There, it's the right call to just let a player savor a tee shot that makes the green.

Rick, I think Chip may have been harkening back to the ORIGINAL Biarritz in France, where the tee shot was played over a chasm, much like the ocean inlet that has to be carried at CP.  I don't think he was advocating a Biarritz-style green. 

But as always I could be wrong!

I doubt the #16 at CPC could ever be improved upon. 

I was thinking of both that original French chasm shot as well as a double pad greensite, though I doubt there is enough room to put a real Biarritz green over there on that little spit of land anyway.

[Rick Shefchik]

I think we've kicked around possible alternative greens to the current 16th before, and I still come back to the same conclusion: tarting up that green would be like putting frosting on frosting.

I love Biarritz greens; there are far too few of them, in my opinion. But they can be used almost anywhere. I would build them where the topography of the hole is otherwise nothing special. That's clearly not the case at #16. There, it's the right call to just let a player savor a tee shot that makes the green.

Rick, I think Chip may have been harkening back to the ORIGINAL Biarritz in France, where the tee shot was played over a chasm, much like the ocean inlet that has to be carried at CP.  I don't think he was advocating a Biarritz-style green. 

But as always I could be wrong!

Me too!

[PThomas]

uh, isnt 16 at CPC tough enough already without a Biarritz??

[Patrick Kiser]

Not to thread jack, but couldn't the following similar question be asked as well?

What if ... Raynor at the Olympic Club?

Sounds like another thread perhaps...

[Dan Kelly]

Has this what-if been discussed?

If Raynor had finished Cypress Point, would Bobby Jones have hired him to do Augusta National?

Et cetera.

[Bill_McBride]

Has this what-if been discussed?

If Raynor had finished Cypress Point, would Bobby Jones have hired him to do Augusta National?

Et cetera.

Mackenzie's attraction for Jones was not only Cypress Point (and Pasatiempo too), but their shared love of the Old Course at St Andrews, and Jones' belief that Mackenzie could reflect what Jones liked at TOC on the new Augusta course.

I've never heard of any real connection between Jones and any of the CBM/Raynor courses, although he did play NGLA as a member of the 1922 Walker Cup team.

[Carl Rogers]

It is painful looking at those photos!

Painfully magical ... you mean?

The sublime lyrical interaction of the bunkering and landscape forms in it's present design could never be achieved through a template.

[Carl Rogers]

It is painful looking at those photos!

Painfully magical ... you mean?

The sublime lyrical interaction of the bunkering and landscape forms in it's present design could never be achieved through a template.

Yes. It looks perfect. I can't think of a course that photographs better. Re: the bunkering thing, I'm not so sure - when that geometric look matures, it looks so pleasing to the eye...

Just to look at the pics, they look so seductively anchored to that spot on earth and no other spot on earth.

[Neil_Crafter]

We do know that Raynor had planned the 16th hole as there is a photo of the site of this hole in a magazine from 1925 and captioned that it would be the 16th hole. And there was a similar photo from the same year showing a stake out on the rocks beyond where the 18th tee is now, describing it as the 18th tee. With 16 and 18 locked in place then 17 had to be a similar hole to Mackenzie's, and likely 15 was as well. So the last four were quite likely very similar from Raynor to Mackenzie, It's going back inland from there that there would likely be found the differences between the two routings.

[Jim Nugent]

We do know that Raynor had planned the 16th hole as there is a photo of the site of this hole in a magazine from 1925 and captioned that it would be the 16th hole. 

As a par 3 or as a par 4? 

  And there was a similar photo from the same year showing a stake out on the rocks beyond where the 18th tee is now, describing it as the 18th tee. With 16 and 18 locked in place then 17 had to be a similar hole to Mackenzie's, and likely 15 was as well. So the last four were quite likely very similar from Raynor to Mackenzie, It's going back inland from there that there would likely be found the differences between the two routings.

Is sthe 18th green pretty well locked in place, given the 18th tee?  I'd love to see those photos. 

[Tiger_Bernhardt]

15 is the best short I have ever played.   Maybe Tom got a chinese wedgie today.

[Neil_Crafter]

Jim
The photo and caption are from Fairway magazine November 1925. Doesn't say if it was a par 3 or 4 but says a carry of 185 yards is needed to get across the water on a line to the pin. As for the 18th, the photo shows a stake on the rocks out beyond where the current tee is. Mackenzie had plans for a tee out here but they were dropped. Where Raynor's 18th went from there is a guess, but I imagine it went in the general vicinity of where it is now, below the clubhouse site.

[Kalen Braley]

Question: What if Cypress had been routed backwards along the same hole corridors?  18 is 1, 17 is 2, etc, etc.

Answer: Then RTJ would have had a real excuse/template to blame for routing Spyglass how he did. 

[DMoriarty]

Gib Papazian riffed on this some time ago, and had some interesting comments on what was what.  He did it in jest. Or did he?