Mackenzie's famous Sitwell Park Greens: Now with Before and After Pics

[Thomas Dai]

Thanks for the links Duncan. Interesting reading. Well done Robin and Neil.
Here's the b&w photo of the (apparent) 4th at Sitwell now coloured.
atb

[James Reader]

Posted today from the Sitwell Park Twitter account; “ How would this be received. Putting the 12th back to how it was originally designed.” Exciting if they genuinely are considering it.

[Robin_Hiseman]

Posted today from the Sitwell Park Twitter account; “ How would this be received. Putting the 12th back to how it was originally designed.” Exciting if they genuinely are considering it.

Only 20 years after I suggested it to them!

[Grant Saunders]

With much thanks to my brother Andy, who some of you may remember joined us at the Painswick BUDA, here are, for what may be the first time, before and after pics of Mackenzie's iconic 12th and 18th greens at Sitwell Park.   

I've added Andy's emailed comments to me, which clear up once and for all which green is which and that there are inded two separate greens.

 The two old b/w photos are clearly of two different greens. I showed them to the two senior greenkeepers, and both agreed that the 'very wild' green is now the 12th, and the slightly less wild green is the 18th.

THE 18TH

I think photo 18th01_small is taken pretty close to where the 'HOME GREEN AT SITWELL PARK' photographer was standing. 18th02_small gives you a slightly more close-up view of the now-flat green.


Mackenzie's Original 18th green


2011:  Taken from approximately the same position.


A slightly closer view.


THE 12TH

I've given you three views of the 12th. The key challenge was: where was the photographer standing when he took the iconic view of Mackenzie's 12th green? For the iconic photo seems to have been taken from an impossible place. The ground slopes very sharply up a hill towards the green (you can see this best in 12th03_small), and there's seemingly no way to take the 'iconic' photo without the aid of a cherry picker! Rob I'll leave you to decide. You can see sheds and fences etc behind and to the right of the green, but they are now obscured by bushes and trees.


One of the most famous pictures in golf architectural history


Approximately the same view today


The view from the forward tee.


From the front left of the old green.

It seems to me that, for the most part, Mackenzie's original contouring is still there, but has just been grown in.  The winter green is a new addition, the terrace of the current green has been extended and the bunkering is long gone. It would not be beyond the bounds of possibility to recreate that photo in the current day, if it could just be worked out exactly where the original shot was taken.

If Andy's photos do anything they show very clearly just how steep the greensite was and how it was the case that Mackenzie emphasised form over function with his design in this instance.  Another thing that strikes me is how dry the grass faces must have been.  It had to have been extremely difficult to keep those slopes in a playable condition.

Well, I hope this thread ties up a loose end about what became of these greens.  Who'd like to join me in recreating the photo?

Im sure someone will have noted this before but to me, the original photo of the 12th green appears to have been taken from up a tree?


If you look at the top of the photo there is a small branch visible which is a scale and size not in keeping with the trees in the background and it "hangs" down into the frame.


Would this perhaps tie in with the comment about the need for a cherry picker to recreate the photo?

[James Reader]

Better late than never, Robin?


Grant, I can’t agree on the ‘up a tree’ theory.  The grass in the bottom left of the photo looks to be too close to the camera for that.