Pine Valley and the great lies in golf

[Patrick_Mucci]

Malcolm,

Everyone's game is different and confidence has a lot to do with how you play a shot.

On # 5, I've resorted to a choked up driver.

I've learned to play # 5 short of the green, but still, that's no guarantee of a par.

In my most recent visit, two fellows who I was playing with, both superior golfers, hit their rescues deep to right field, down in the woods and took telephone numbers.  I now hit a choked up driver, trying to land it in the approach short of the green, letting it run up onto the green.

Normally, I'd hit a 3-wood/2-iron to try to accomplish the same thing, but, from all the rain, the fairways weren't releasing the ball.
One driver ended up on the front edge, the other 20 feet behind the hole.

On # 17 I always hit driver up into the hill which acts as a nice backstop leaving me 80-100 yards playing like 90-110 or more yards.
Almost everyone hits their second on # 17 short of their intended LZ.

I hit driver on # 12, trying to get it pin high with a little 60-90 yard approach straight down to the green.

On # 11, I like driver left center, on the upslope.

The neat thing about some of the greens at PV is that you can aim away from the flag, and let the contour of the green feed the ball to the hole rather than risk a dicey shot at the hole..

# 3 is like that, as is # 6.
# 9, right green has a little of that, as does # 11 and # 17.

DON'T GO LONG IS ALMOST A UNIVERSAL with # 4 being a possible exception.

Look at the hole location on # 18 as you tee off, if it's up front, being long doesn't necessarily hurt.

Play to the center of # 1 no matter how far back the flag is.

Depending on how I'm hitting the ball, if good, I'll try to cut the corner on # 6, if mediocre, I'll try to drive to the center of the fairway.

Take extra club on your approach into # 15.

Good luck and enjoy the course, it's really quite unique.

[Malcolm Mckinnon]

Pat,

You didn't specify which tee you were hitting from on 5 but somehow I hit that green religiously. Two putting is another matter.

I always seem to par 17 as well. This July just a hybrid 3 iron off the tee and a 7 or 6 iron.

11 and 12 have not been kind to me. Yet I have found par many times on 13, go figure? I'll try a driver on 12 next time that's another one I try to go "consevative" and then struggle.

For some reason 18 has played well for me always.

Yes, I play to the front 1/3 of number 1 knowing the penal nature of a miss towards the back. Still 3 putt is easy from there.

I went straight across the waste area on 6 this July and just caught the last bunker in the waste area.Not a disaster yet, drat!!

Malcolm

[Mark Chaplin]

I'll retire from this, Patrick likes a closed post that encourages debate on courses where most chaps are unfortunately never going to play.

[Patrick_Mucci]

I'll retire from this, Patrick likes a closed post that encourages debate on courses where most chaps are unfortunately never going to play.

Mark,

That shouldn't prevent you from telling us what links course you belong to, so that we may compare the topography and lies encountered.

[Niall C]

Surely Patrick, you can only compare the lies and contours if you've actually played the course, is that not what you preach ?

Niall

[Tim Martin]

I'll retire from this, Patrick likes a closed post that encourages debate on courses where most chaps are unfortunately never going to play.

On the contrary I think  Pat`s analysis and commentary are very insightful and informative whether you have played PV or not. Here is someone that has played the course over a long period of time under a variety of conditions and is willing to share his experiences. This is the # 1 rated golf course in the world by most measures and of great interest to the contributor`s in the DG. There are plenty of courses discussed and debated on this board that you could say the same thing about and that should not stifle discussion.

[Jud_T]

 I can't remember the last time I played Kingsley where I didn't encounter multiple downhill, sidehill, or uphill lies in the fairway throughout the course of the round.

Tim,

All the lies at Kingsey are sidehill in my experience...

[Patrick_Mucci]

Surely Patrick, you can only compare the lies and contours if you've actually played the course, is that not what you preach ?

Niall,

As usual, you're wrong again.

How do you know that I haven't played Mark's course ?

How do you know that others haven't played PV and Mark's course ?

[Patrick_Mucci]

I'll retire from this, Patrick likes a closed post that encourages debate on courses where most chaps are unfortunately never going to play.


Mark,

Based on your reasoning, Should I put an end to the "Enchanted Journey" thread about NGLA ?

[Bryan Izatt]

Patrick,

My home course is in the village of Bond Head, about 30 minutes north of Toronto.  You do know where Toronto is, don't you? 

Many people don't like the course as it is too hilly, too penal, and too often blind with very difficult greens.  Most people fail the examination.

I like it.  It's always a picturesque examination of my decaying golf game and a good piece of golf architecture that is a bit out of the norm of modern golf courses.  Almost modern quirky.

[Mark Saltzman]

I'll retire from this, Patrick likes a closed post that encourages debate on courses where most chaps are unfortunately never going to play.


Mark,

Based on your reasoning, Should I put an end to the "Enchanted Journey" thread about NGLA ?

Patrick,

Please don't.   In fact, please continue it as soon as you get a chance.

[Ronald Montesano]

THREAD GRAB

The choked-up/down driver is the greatest shot in golf. I played one a week ago at Cherry Hill (Travis-Ontario) while the lads were playing a match on #2 and flushed it farther than I hit the ball with a full-on grip. Goes to show that, regardless of technology, the face-center shot will fly and motor great distances.

I also use it on #9 at Cherry Hill when the wind is up, although I back off to a 1/2 swing on that one.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Patrick,

My home course is in the village of Bond Head, about 30 minutes north of Toronto.  You do know where Toronto is, don't you? 

Many people don't like the course as it is too hilly, too penal, and too often blind with very difficult greens.  Most people fail the examination.

I like it.  It's always a picturesque examination of my decaying golf game and a good piece of golf architecture that is a bit out of the norm of modern golf courses.  Almost modern quirky.

Bryan,

Looks great.

If your golf season lasted longer than the July 4th weekend , I'd venture up there now.

[Sean_A]

Pat

In general, I think you are correct.  Fairways these days tend to be narrower, but less challenging in terms of controlling ball flight due to wonky lies.  Awkward lies are one of the great defenses against the flat bellies.  Just look back to Royal Aberdeen a few weeks.  That course isn't particularly humpty bumpty, but the Walker Cuppers struggled to control their ball flights when in unusual spots.  The ironic aspect of this is increasing length is used more and more to combat length and it seems the longer courses get the more flat they become (or run the very real risk of being OTT for Joe Blow) which in essence eliminates much of the character courses can present in terms of variety in lies. Generally speaking, in my experience it is the links of the GB&I which offer the greatest amount of variety in lies and with the added wind racheting the challenege up.  Its no surprise that a great many people prefer to play their golf inland and make the odd run to the seaside.  Week after week of this sort of golf can become a soul destroying experience.  I know I welcome going inland to play less windy and bumpy sites now and again.  I was just at Huntercombe yesterday and while playing I thought it was grand to not have so many variables attacking my already fragile game. 

Ciao     

[Tom MacWood]

Another good example is Eastward Ho!. You will find very few flat lies and as result the course plays a lot longer than its 6200 yards.

[Jay Flemma]

If someone has a pic of 14 at PGA Golf Club Dye Course.

[Niall C]

Surely Patrick, you can only compare the lies and contours if you've actually played the course, is that not what you preach ?

Niall,

As usual, you're wrong again.

How do you know that I haven't played Mark's course ?

How do you know that others haven't played PV and Mark's course ?

Patrick

I was merely pointing out what was glaringly obvious, you're a golf snob. The majority of threads you start seem to be about a select number of exclusive clubs and then you habitually close down any discussion or dissent or questioning of your views by declaring that if you haven't played it you can't comment. If someone makes a point citing a particular course as an example and someone else can't join in the discussion because they haven't played that particular course then you may as well pull the plug on this site. That I think was the point that Mark was trying to make.

As for the "as usual, you're wrong again" jibe, thats a bit rich given some of the spurious pish you come away with including the idea that Pine Valley offers variety of lies like no other. I would comment further but as I haven't played PV..........

Niall

[Patrick_Mucci]

Pat

In general, I think you are correct. 

Fairways these days tend to be narrower, but less challenging in terms of controlling ball flight due to wonky lies.  Awkward lies are one of the great defenses against the flat bellies.  Just look back to Royal Aberdeen a few weeks.  That course isn't particularly humpty bumpty, but the Walker Cuppers struggled to control their ball flights when in unusual spots.  The ironic aspect of this is increasing length is used more and more to combat length and it seems the longer courses get the more flat they become (or run the very real risk of being OTT for Joe Blow) which in essence eliminates much of the character courses can present in terms of variety in lies. Generally speaking, in my experience it is the links of the GB&I which offer the greatest amount of variety in lies and with the added wind racheting the challenege up.  Its no surprise that a great many people prefer to play their golf inland and make the odd run to the seaside.  Week after week of this sort of golf can become a soul destroying experience.  I know I welcome going inland to play less windy and bumpy sites now and again.  I was just at Huntercombe yesterday and while playing I thought it was grand to not have so many variables attacking my already fragile game. 

Sean, next to wind, I think awkward lies are extremely unsettling to the golfer, especially pronounced awkward lies, of which Pine Valley has many.

At a club I'm familiar with, one of their fairways has wonderul ripples, great mini undulations that are extremely challenging from about 150 to 100 yards to the green.  For 40+ years, factions within the club have been trying to have that fairway flattened.

WHY ?  To make the game "easier", "more fair", "less random".

Fortunately, to date, they haven't been successful.

Many years ago I caddied at a club, Montclair, where a flat lie was rare.
Some older, good golfer told another golfer who was complaining about the lies, "if you can play Montclair, you can play anywhere, your game will travel well, so stop complaining and learn how to deal with the different lies."

A related question might be.

Have any courses, being built on flat land, deliberately created undulations in the DZ's /

If so, which ones ?

If not, why not ?

Ciao     

[Chris Roselle]

It's funny that this topic was introduced because I was just thinking about it and my first ever round at Pine Valley.  I was playing very well heading into my first round ever at the course (back in 1995).  I managed to hit every single fairway (which I've never reproduced) but somehow shot the worse score I've ever had there to this date.  Just goes to show that hitting fairways is only a small part of the battle at Pine Valley.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Chris,

Lies in the fairway on #'s 4, 8, 11, 13, 15, 16, 17 and 18 can be very difficult.

Lies in the fairway on #'s 2 and 9 can be challenging.

[Sean_A]

Pat

In general, I think you are correct. 

Fairways these days tend to be narrower, but less challenging in terms of controlling ball flight due to wonky lies.  Awkward lies are one of the great defenses against the flat bellies.  Just look back to Royal Aberdeen a few weeks.  That course isn't particularly humpty bumpty, but the Walker Cuppers struggled to control their ball flights when in unusual spots.  The ironic aspect of this is increasing length is used more and more to combat length and it seems the longer courses get the more flat they become (or run the very real risk of being OTT for Joe Blow) which in essence eliminates much of the character courses can present in terms of variety in lies. Generally speaking, in my experience it is the links of the GB&I which offer the greatest amount of variety in lies and with the added wind racheting the challenege up.  Its no surprise that a great many people prefer to play their golf inland and make the odd run to the seaside.  Week after week of this sort of golf can become a soul destroying experience.  I know I welcome going inland to play less windy and bumpy sites now and again.  I was just at Huntercombe yesterday and while playing I thought it was grand to not have so many variables attacking my already fragile game. 

Sean, next to wind, I think awkward lies are extremely unsettling to the golfer, especially pronounced awkward lies, of which Pine Valley has many.

At a club I'm familiar with, one of their fairways has wonderul ripples, great mini undulations that are extremely challenging from about 150 to 100 yards to the green.  For 40+ years, factions within the club have been trying to have that fairway flattened.

WHY ?  To make the game "easier", "more fair", "less random".

Fortunately, to date, they haven't been successful.

Many years ago I caddied at a club, Montclair, where a flat lie was rare.
Some older, good golfer told another golfer who was complaining about the lies, "if you can play Montclair, you can play anywhere, your game will travel well, so stop complaining and learn how to deal with the different lies."

A related question might be.

Have any courses, being built on flat land, deliberately created undulations in the DZ's /

If so, which ones ?

If not, why not ?

Ciao     

Pat

I associate wonky lies and wind as a 1-2 combo.  In tandem one really understans the importance of ball flight.

As you seem to suggest, I do think most golfers would prefer not to have such "random" bounces and therefore random lies.  Although, I have always been one to believe that the more one knows a course the less random it becomes - tee hee. 

There was that course recently built in Germany which looked to have some oddbball fairways.  I know some recent links were built with some rambunctious fairways, but in the main flat is as flat will remain.  I have long wanted to see a flat property blown to smithereens then a course laid on top of it with the archie looking for the salient features just as he would on a natural site.  I want the "random" nature this sort of thing can provide rather than the cool the hand of man presiding over the course.

Ciao

[Chris Roselle]

Chris,

Lies in the fairway on #'s 4, 8, 11, 13, 15, 16, 17 and 18 can be very difficult.

Lies in the fairway on #'s 2 and 9 can be challenging.

  Patrick, you are so correct.  When you combine the different lies one can have and then add the severity of the greens and trying to hit your ball to certain spots it all adds up.  I think I had 40 putts in my initial round at PVGC and most of that was due to the fact of not hitting the proper portions of the greens (due to the fact that I didn't have alot of striaght forward, flat lie 150 yard shots) and having very difficult two putts.  I think I shot 85 the first time around and when I walked off the course I felt like I broke 70 because of the way I struck the ball.

[Steve Scott]

I have fortunate luck of teeing it up at PV tomorrow (Sept. 27)...A question to everyone:

What is your favorite thing about PV?  What is your least? 

Just trying to get a little perspective on the awesome experience I will embark on....

Thanks, Steve

[Doug Wright]

I have fortunate luck of teeing it up at PV tomorrow (Sept. 27)...A question to everyone:

What is your favorite thing about PV?  What is your least? 

Just trying to get a little perspective on the awesome experience I will embark on....

Thanks, Steve

Steve,

My favorite thing is the tremendous variety of challenges presented by Pine Valley. At my level (high single digit) there were so many shots that tested my game--from the second shot into #1 to the second shot into #18--that it could have been exhausting but instead was exhilarating. PV is not unfair, it is just challenging. If one approaches this course with the right mindset there is nothing better.

Least favorite thing--leaving the property thinking I may never return.

[Chris Roselle]

I have fortunate luck of teeing it up at PV tomorrow (Sept. 27)...A question to everyone:

What is your favorite thing about PV?  What is your least? 

Just trying to get a little perspective on the awesome experience I will embark on....

Thanks, Steve

  My favorite thing is driving through the entrance gate and my least favorite thing is leaving through that same gate...
In all seriousness Steve, I really doesn't have a least favorite thing.  I love everything about the place and cherish each and every round I get to play there.  It is that speacial!!!  If I had to pick my most favorite thing it would have to be the second shot into #13...

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