Appropriate Club Punishment for Injuring Caddie

[Terry Lavin]

Thanks for all the advice. The young man is my nephew and we are all traumatized.

[Peter Pallotta]

Don - just saw your post. What a wonderful answer.  For a moment there you reminded me of my grandfather, who spent most of his life working in the dirt, working with the earth. It gave him the same kind of clarity and simplicity you just demonstrated there.

Peter

[JR Potts]

Yeah, T, sorry about that.  I discussed this issue with one of your board members a few weeks ago as he was curious what I thought.  My first thought was to boot the guy from the club but after round tabling it, I thought a penalty like Mike suggested seemed to be the most appropriate as the act (as described to me) wasn't mailicous...although reckless.  I think the caddy deserves whatever remedy is available to him...and the member, after serving a suspension as decided by the club, should be able to earn his keep at the club.

That said, I was never told the fact that he made a Judge Smails defense....that's bull shit.

Again...these IPads suck to type on.

[Terry Lavin]

Terry,
Would u be asking the question if the caddy had hit the member in the face with a club? Take the words caddy and member out of the question and the answer is obvious.

I made the same point to the governing body earlier this evening.

[Mike_Young]

It would seem to me that if the member took care of the situation as he should then all would be rectified.  If not, why would a club want him as a member?  Seems pretty simple to me.

[PThomas]

legal action should be strongly considered as well

guy's a  real ass, hope your nephew wasnt hurt too bad

[Terry Lavin]

It ain't pretty.

[Garland Bayley]

I think it's more complicated. In 1970 Jack Nicklaus threw his putter in the air in elation at winning the Open, fortunately it didn't hurt anybody, but he covered his head because he was worried and I think it almost hit Jacklin. He lost control and created a dangerous situation, although I can see the difference between the two situations.

At the end of the day, he didn't hurt anybody intentionally, and it's not clear just how careless he was. I think it really comes down to that and how careless he's been in the past as well as how bad the injury is. If he helicoptored the club in frustration he's out. If, he went to toss the club in a normal fashion to his caddie and didn't realize he was standing right behind him, that's different.

It was actually Doug Sanders.

Doug Sanders won the US Open. WOW! Nobody told me. 

[Ed Brzezowski]

What will the club do when the caddy retains a lawyer??   Club insurance rates will increase and value of membership will decrease,it's possible. I would say cut your losses and toss him.

[Sven Nilsen]

I find it ironic that the Judge is asking for a ruling.

Regardless of whether or not the club "slipped," if the member has not expressed any remorse for the situation, he should be expelled.  

If he has, the following should be conditions to keeping his membership:

1.  A promise to refrain from any behavior that even smells of a lack of decorum along with a public apology to the caddy and the membership.

2.  The payment by the member of all medical costs incurred by the caddy.

3.  A donation to the Evans Scholarship Fund.

[Mike Sweeney]

Have the member caddy for his caddy (Terry's nephew) for an 18 hole round with the club President, Terry and someone else. Celebrate how the relationship should be rather than tear it down.

Obviously pay the kids medical bills and make a donation to the Evans Scholarship.

[Pete_Pittock]

It has been brough up before, but I think the status of the caddy as an independent contractor (most likely) or an employee of the club wil have some bearing. The clubthrower certainly has a civil liability, which is probably covered (at least to a degree) by his insurance. He probably also has a criminal liability for non-simple assault with a weapon.

A one year suspension (still paying dues and assessments) would probably be the best solution, but I can also see the argument for expulsion. You also have to factor in what termination would mean if there are any clauses in the by-laws which affect his buy-out.

Whatever action, it will have a bearing on all future actions with all other members (unless the club is run under the benevolent dictatorship model.) It wouldn't make a lot of sense to me to tailor the result to what you think will be the outcome if the thrower  stays  a member. Some people would be wired to eventually quit, while others have the persona to stay on reagrdless of how they are treated by the rest of the membership.

[John Kavanaugh]

I don't get the Evans Scholarship donation requests. College Illinois allows for prepaid tuition. Pay for the injured child's education first.  

[JR Potts]

I don't get the Evans Scholarship donation requests. College Illinois allows for prepaid tuition. Pay for the injured child's education first.  

I don't know...just seems fitting.

[Sven Nilsen]

I don't get the Evans Scholarship donation requests. College Illinois allows for prepaid tuition. Pay for the injured child's education first.  

I don't know...just seems fitting.

Agreed JR.

[Sven Nilsen]

The young man/kid was physically assaulted with a weapon. In my estimation, it is a given that the member pays for his medical expenses and faces some sort of disciplinary action. Without having the facts, I'll still say expulsion and I'd give the caddie the name of a great plaintiff's attorney. While in theory it sounds nice to have the guy make a donation to the Evans Foundation, it seems to me that if any money trades hands, it should be the assaulter paying the assaultee. Just thought about what it would be like if it were my child who was on the receiving end......

David:

I think the point was that the Evans Scholarship donation would be in addition to any remuneration made to the caddy.

[JR Potts]

Yes, it's not the Clubs position or duty to determine the appropriate compensation for the harm...it's the Clubs role to police it's members and ensure that it's employees have a safe and appropriate working condition.  Private parties should handle the compensation...but wha should the Club require for continued membership, if applicable, that's the question.

Suspension
Anger Management Classes
A written apology
A donation in the kids name to the WGA

I don't know...it's truly regrettable and horrible...I'm sure the guy feels terrible ( if not, then screw him).  But, I've done some dumb things and seen a lot of people do dumb things on the golf course (driving carts like assholes, hitting golf shots they shouldn't, etc, etc), when drinking and in life.  If the appropriate regret is shown and the member acts in a conciliatory and eanest manner, I think that he should get a second chance at some point IMO.  But, I'm also sure I dint ave all the facts.

[Tim_Cronin]

1. Every penny of the medical bills and any other associate expenses for the caddie's recovery - including income lost during his caddie season - paid by the member.
2. The caddie's college education paid by the member.
3. An apology. (Written, face-to-face, as the caddie prefers.)
4. A substantial donation to the Evans Scholars Foundation.
5. Anger management classes (thanks, J.R., wouldn't have thought of that).

The member should be under suspension for as long as it takes the caddie to recover fully. And then for six more months of the playing season (say, the CDGA handicap season).

Then the club's board should vote on whether the member should be expelled or retained.

What an awful thing for the kid to go through. Terry, give him my best wishes.

[mike_beene]

yes I meant Juan M but I can't spell and my iPad thinks it can. this is almost as dangerous as being mad and shooting a gun randomly.If the club slipped no penalty.If he threw it expel.I don't see the middle ground .He did or he didn't and actions have consequences,even in 2011.

[Bob_Huntley]

If the miscreant is known as a hot tempered club thrower, let a plaintiff's attorney prove that the caddie deserves a substantial settlement. Forget about the Evans program, the young man should get all of the money damages himself.

Frankly, anyone that harms an employee is lucky not to go to the hoosegow.

Expell him and set an example at the club, boors not wanted.

Bob

[RJ_Daley]

I agree with Bob and others who say, it is simple, expel the guy from membership and let the tort law take care of the rest.  If the club wants to do anything, let them pay a retainer for a good attorney, as that is the proper venue for proper and considered compensation.  (although an agressive attorney is going to involve the club as a co defendant. 

It seems to me that the less the club has to do with deliberating anything, such as offering him options suggested like contributions to the Evans, or other performance options is just making the club unnecessarily involved with the course of proper civil process.  If the club is culpable in any way for previously tolerating or looking the other way at demonstrable bad, reckless behavior of this tortfeasor that was similarly putting employees or other members at risk with a serial club thrower, well they should just stand by and wait to be served as party to the subsequent action.

It is really a matter of the tort law process; not club procedures other than the boot, at this point.

Of course as Terry advises, "it isn't pretty" which I'm sorry to hear for his nephew as it indicates some serious damage to the lad's face. 

[Sam Morrow]

Expel the SOB and publicize it.

Exactly. I also hope all the clubs in the area blackball him. I worked at a club where we had a member who was a dickhead and treated everyone as such. He would take divots out of greens and things like that. All the club would ever do is fine him $100 everytime. He treated the employees terribly, after I had given my 2 weeks notice he was bitching at me about the conditions of the course (we were going through floods) and I told him that he would have more friends if he wasn't such a prick. 

[Mark Chaplin]

Unfortunately due to recession some people are getting into good clubs who do not deserve to do so. A strong membership process should weed out such applicants.

As for this case if the injury was deliberate (unlikely) or reckless in the extreme it sounds like a criminal matter. Even if it was an accident I do not think I'd want to be associated with a club that allows such behaviour from a member. He goes or you and your buddies threaten to go.

Terry I wish your nephew a quick recovery.

[Adam Clayman]

How culpable is the club to allow this bad behavior to have continued?

I say expel the guy, and the club make a donation to either the kid or the Evans Scholarship fund.

[Mark Pearce]

If the player had been caught cheating there would be no question what the answer was.  Isn't negligent or wilful behaviour leading to injury to another person worse than cheating?  He has to be expelled.