What course could be the next top 100 course with a little extra money?

[Sean_A]

Ian

Nefyn?  While a beauty of a spot, I think it would take a lot more than a little extra money to make it a great course.  It really needs a complete rethink.

Ciao

[Sean Leary]

Wine Valley!!!

Use the money to fly in the raters and ensure that no houses get built!!! 

P.S.  Use the leftover money to get rid of the pond on 9.

Kalen,

WV is already number 99 (GW Modern) and I suspect is on it's way up.

if it were private do you think it would be rated even higher?

Sean,

Public or private doesn't make a difference to me.  I think it should be much higher than 99 Modern, and I think as more raters see it they will agree.

Do you think public/private generally affects rankings?

Yes I do think it absolutely affects rankings.

[Joel_Stewart]

if money for invested for maintenance, upkeep and MINOR redesign?  (e.g. the next BPB)

My picks..

- Callippe Preserve

LOL. If this is the same Callippe Preserve that's in Pleasanton, CA you have to be kidding but then there are so many top 100 lists out there maybe it could make one of them.  Maybe it makes top 100 in California and that's a stretch.

You have to remember that Pasatiempo, Quaker Ridge, Mountain Ridge are not on the GD list.  I can think of 5 courses in the Bay Area that are better then Callippe.

[Matthew MacKay]

Mark, the work at Kawartha was completed at least 5 years ago, so I'm not sure that more time will do it any good. I grew up there and the course is comfortably in my Canada top 25 (and I've seen pretty much everything), but the club does little to 'market' itself and I'm guessing only a small percentage of panelists have seen it. I can't imagine those that do see it don't leave thinking its much better than most of the mediocrity on the top 100 Score list...but then again, there are a lot of head-scratchers on that list.

Kawartha is on the Golfweek list of courses but was added only recently...I'd be curious to see where it sits on that list or if it even received enough votes.

[Jim Nugent]

Maybe Ballybunion Cashen with some redesigning. 

Could a different routing produce a top course at Old Head? 

[Mark Johnson]

Chaska Town Course?  Seriously?

Mark - I gotta give you credit, on this and some other recent forums, you definitely take the unorthodox opinion.  But there is no way on God's green earth that Chaska Town Course could have a cash infusion and become a top 100.  An impossibility....top 100 in Minnesota yet.

If you are thinking in Bethpage Black Terms - Hiawatha or Keller are the first places that could receive a cash infusion and be pretty special.  Shelman will kill me for even throwing out a course 6 blocks from me that I've never played a full 18 at in 8 years (for good reason) but get one the archies on here to do a complete atom bomb on the greens and add some bunkering and it can be a pretty special course. 

But Chaska Town course....how many houses are you planning to buy and demo?  Before doing anything to the course

Ok... time for me to defend my selection of Chaska.

Granted, Chaska is in Horrible shape.   way too beat up;  most of the tee boxs and greens need to be redone.    That said, Chaska has some phenomenal bones and could be a great course with investment.     Here is my hole by hole.

1- very blah downhill par 4; hole needs a little more shape
2-  Great hole; long uphill par four with challenging tee shot and approach
3- Signature hole on the course;  280 par-4 with large tree in the middle of the fair.  Great risk reward hole
4- 155yd par 3 to small green surrounded by creek and trees;   green itself needs to be redone;
5-  risk reward par 4 with a stream bisecting the fairway; approach to a small peninsula green.  would be a great hole if 40 yards longer;   green needs to be redone
6-  tough 190 par 3 to large green with tough, deep bunkers;  would like to see a little more contour on the gree.
7-  520 yard par 5 with green hidden behind trees and protected by a stream;   played as 480 yd par 4 for the US Am;   would go back to this set up;  also need to remove the cart path in the middle of the fairway
8-  very blah 400 yard par 4;  some water on the left, but not really in play;   definitely an opportunity to move the tee and create some angle in the hole
9-  Links style longish par 5 which shares a fairway with 10.  Nice elevated green; bunkering needs to be redone
10-  410 par 4 with demanding tee shot around fairway bunkers to 2-tiered green
11- one of the top 10 holes in the state of minnesota.   challenging drive with water on the left to diagonal green;  bunkering could use a little work but still a great hole
12-  nice long par 3 over lake to diagonal green;  sloppy bunkering and beat up green (gets no sunlight)
13-   Bite off as much as you can chew par 4 with carry over lake; can hit anywhere from 6-iron to Driver; great hole;  green complex needs to be rebuilt
14-  very blah downhill par 3 surrounded by houses; probably worst hole on the course
15-  490 yard par 4.5 with a creek in the middle.  nice risk reward hole;   fairway needs to be narrowed a bit and a few extraneous trees need to be removed
16-  Drivable 319yd downhill par 4 with nice cross-bunkering;   could tighten up the fairways a bit
17-  Great long 480 yard par 4.   Green complex beat up and tees need to be redone.
18-  Standard C-Shaped 530yd par 5;   could lengthen a bit a green complex needs to be redone

[Don_Mahaffey]

High Point and Apache Stronghold would seem to be two obvious choices since both were top 100 at one time. Probably need more then "a little extra money" to get them back though.

[Jonathan Decker]

To me the most obvious response is Beau Desert.  Get an archie to cut back the trees and fix the bunkers and Bob's yer uncle.

I think Grosse Ile could most definitely be top 100 classic if the cart paths were better placed, some trees removed and a total redo of the bunker scheme was undertaken. 

Huntercombe is another course that could be magically transformed by a serious tree removal plan. 

Ciao
[/quote

Let's just have Corky pay off the bank, foot the bill for every project,  and GI should be well on it's way to Top 100 Classic!!!

[Jonathan Decker]

I think the people saying Cabot Links and Lost Farm (and Renaissance) are missing the OP's point.  He's looking for gems in the rough, not gems that haven't made the rankings yet because they are too new.

I have yet to play, but is there a top 100 course under Cobb's Creek?  

Of the courses I've played, the one that screams "a few tweaks from genius" is Michigan, though I could probably make an argument for Bethpage's Red and Green courses as well.  

On the other hand, Danang Golf Club in Vietnam is just "wider fairways" away from being great, but I am not sure this can be done as a "tweak" given the massive bluffs Norman massaged.

From what I have read on this site Michigan is slated to be getting quite the facelift.

[Mark Chaplin]

Is it not more likely a previous top 100 course that's faded from the list would have a better chance of returning than an unknown. Pedigree doesn't disappear even if standards have slipped due to anyone of of many reasons such as cash, maintenance, encroachment - buildings/trees, sea walls, erosion.

[Jonathan Decker]

Belvedere-currently not maintained to the standards many would like.  Seems be going for the "soft and true" look.

Country Club of Detroit-the work done by Tom Doak & Rennassiance could get this course back in GD Top 100.  The tree removal should do wonders for this flat parcel of land.  Now let's see if they can actually keep the greens alive and make the most of a 365 day closure.

[Sean_A]

To me the most obvious response is Beau Desert.  Get an archie to cut back the trees and fix the bunkers and Bob's yer uncle.

I think Grosse Ile could most definitely be top 100 classic if the cart paths were better placed, some trees removed and a total redo of the bunker scheme was undertaken. 

Huntercombe is another course that could be magically transformed by a serious tree removal plan. 

Ciao
[/quote

Let's just have Corky pay off the bank, foot the bill for every project,  and GI should be well on it's way to Top 100 Classic!!!

Jonathon

In years gone by I wouldn't have been surprised if Corky did just that. 

Ciao

[Melvyn Morrow]

News just in – an early Colt course has been found at Hastings. This one seems to pre date the old abandon course on the East Hill. As many will note those course were in line with some of the short Ladies courses of the day and does need considerable money spent on it, although it has great potential for a CartBall course and has the land to extend  the Holes to accommodate the long hitters.

In fact I commend this course to all cart riders, distance junkies and long hitters, as it seems to offer that which you seem to have been seeking on a course, the requirement not to think.

The First Hole is for those who crave high and hilly Holes, while the second and third offer the real links atmosphere by providing its own wind.
 
 






My only concern relates to the modern attitude that of courses being seen to be too penal, with Hastings you get that face on. The choice is don’t play or grasp the nettle, put down the toys and face this course - cart and aids free. Some say it has Championship potential, but by today’s standards that may be true, yet it is not for me, although I expect many on here may like to try their skills, neverthless without their toys can they really raise their game – who knows.

Other points that may be of interest, it is by definition a Links course, it has some concrete paths that could be converted for carts, Local club house but limited in size and one point going for it being that the Green Fees are well below the national average for a round.

Melvyn

PS While some consider it may be an early Colt, others are certain they can see the hand of Tom Doak, but I have looked high and low on the photos provided and can see no hand whatsoever. Another comment being that Sean Arble had an input as no bunkers are to be found on the course, yet I am surprised not to have seen one of his great course reports covering this particular one, so perhaps we need to be careful in putting any name forward for this project.

[Jud_T]

Askernish?

[Tom_Doak]

Askernish?

Most of the answers I've seen in this thread sound ridiculous to me ... even the courses of my own that have been mentioned.  Askernish, on the other hand, is a winning answer.  They are operating on a shoestring now; if they had just a bit of extra money to maintain the course closer to the condition of other links, I believe it would give the top 100 a good run.

[Jim Franklin]

Baltimore Country Club. I have no idea why it can't crack Golf Digest's list, but with a little more money, maybe they can get the greens perfect all year long.

[David Harshbarger]

Here are some past World Top 100 that might be candidates:

El Saler
Bali Handara - Amazing piece of property not sure if the novelty wore off or what.
Baltimore CC - In and out of the World Top 100, seems like a good candidate per Jim F.
Capilano - Well regarded in the 80's.  Classic Thompson
Cascades - also nominated, had a long run in the Top 100 coming back at 99 after missing a year in 2003.
National GC of Canada
Paraparaumu
Royal Montreal (Blue) - Is Ian working at this one?
Wild Dunes - Top 40 at one time.
World Woods (Pine Barrens) - Had a solid run, now passe?
Yale - Will the recent renovation work continue to move it up the charts?

[Michael George]

Tom:

Being one of the lead architects today, this question could be posed a little different to you.

What golf course would you love to get your hands on as you think you could really improve it?

I understand if you cannot answer due to being in the business.  Just thought it would be an interesting question.

[Tom_Doak]

Tom:

this question could be posed a little different to you.

What golf course would you love to get your hands on as you think you could really improve it?

Michael:

I don't really make a habit of looking at others' courses and trying to imagine how I could have made them better.  I try to take them for what they are, or were.

We've been lucky to work with a bunch of good courses and get some of them into the top 100, where they rightfully belonged ... places like Camargo, The Valley Club, and Yeamans Hall.  But in those cases, it wasn't really my own ideas that put them over the hump.  It was restoring some old features that had been lost, cleaning up things that should never have been done, and getting people to notice them [which may have had as much to do with it as actually making the changes, for all I know].

We have very rarely looked for a job where we took a course that wasn't all that great and tried to re-make it into something better, as was done recently at the Cal Club, for example.  I just don't go looking for jobs like that.  North Shore in NY was a recent exception to that rule; years ago, we did similar work at Onwentsia Club in Chicago.  But, I think the likelihood of giving a course a makeover like that and elevating it to the top 100 is not great.  If the course is good enough to be close to the top 100, then they probably aren't going to want to blow it up to try and improve it; and if it's not close, then it would be difficult to make the kind of radical changes to get it there.

[Ian Andrew]

Capilano - don't see that as Top 100
National GC of Canada - definately not

Royal Montreal (Blue) - Is Ian working at this one?
I'm not - it's a Rees Jones

[Peter Pallotta]

I'm just guessing, but I'd bet that over the years 100 courses have been made worse with that "little extra mioney" for every 1 course that was made any better.   And for always the same reason - because someone thought they'd be the committee chair who'd finally kick the course up a notch into the top 100 (or top 10 in the state, or whatever).  If at all possible, leave the darn things alone...

Peter

[Michael Wharton-Palmer]

Texarkana Country Club...if restored to the original Langford/Moreau bunkering and green sites

[Mark Johnson]

I'm just guessing, but I'd bet that over the years 100 courses have been made worse with that "little extra mioney" for every 1 course that was made any better.   And for always the same reason - because someone thought they'd be the committee chair who'd finally kick the course up a notch into the top 100 (or top 10 in the state, or whatever).  If at all possible, leave the darn things alone...

Peter

I am real tasking about public courses which are maintained poorly but have really good bones.  Ala Bethpage in the early 90s

[Scott Warren]

Having played Yale yesterday for the first time, with the Punchbowl at the 3rd restored, some added conditioning (I don't care, but I know some do...) and some work at 16 to add a little something, I believe it would be a lock for world top 100 -- and it may well belong now as is.

[David Harshbarger]

Capilano - don't see that as Top 100
National GC of Canada - definately not

Royal Montreal (Blue) - Is Ian working at this one?
I'm not - it's a Rees Jones

So much for my bump for Canada