[Brad Wilbur]

A lot of newer US courses that were designed as part of a residential development were designed to have a plethora of golf course view lots, with no concern to green-tee distances.  When I played the Old Course last year, it was hard to imagine an easier course to walk.  In general, the only course we walked that was moderately difficult to walk was Kingsbarns, and that doesn't qualify as an old school Scottish course.

[Sven Nilsen]

I believe Olympia Fields has a policy that if caddies are not available, all guests must ride.

[Melvyn Morrow]

My information relating to revenue was based upon the last paragraph from the following topic. Reading it I presumed it was not an issue for USA Private clubs. As I said I have no knowledge of the working of these very private clubs.

To my critics I hope that clears up any misunderstanding noting that the info came from what I believe to be a reliable US source.

Re: Getting Trolleys/Push carts approved at a private US club
Reply #38 on: September 16, 2011, 11:39:58 AM

I'll regret chiming in on one of these threads but here's my two cents.

It's hard to believe I'm the only private-club member with the attitude that I want to play golf however and whenever I prefer to play it and I'm willing to pay my fair share of the money needed by the club. I don't care if they charge me one dollar a month as dues and call the rest of it "cart fees" or "green fees" or if they call it all dues and say that "cart fees" and "green fees"are included.

I don't want a caddie. I don't want a riding cart. I'd probably like having push carts provided by the club but I'm just as happy bringing my own. And I don't want to shirk any of my financial responsibility as a member. It's all good.

How in world do clubs arrive at a point where they would tell someone like me to bugger off and go be a member somewhere else just because I prefer to walk the course and haul my clubs on my shoulder or a push cart, depending on the situation? It's insane.

At a private club, riding carts do not produce revenue. The revenue all comes from the pockets of the members. An accounting fiction which makes it appear that money flows from the carts would seem a first push down the slippery slope that leads to telling members they can not play without using a cart, either always or at certain desirable times.

Melvyn

[Kalen Braley]

I'd certainly like to understand why revenue matters so much at these and whether that is the case at the traditional and long established private clubs as well as at the newer ones. 

Mark,

Revenue/profit taking is the American way.  Its so engrained in our culture it penetrates everything and anything that it can.

Its why we spend 3x more per capita over any other country in the world on health care, yet leave 20% of the population uncovered without access to it.

[Bill_McBride]

Melvyn, most if not all American clubs lease a fleet of golf carts because the average US golfer is over 50 and prefers to ride rather than walk, particularly if it's hot etc.

(I agree this is not a wonderful situation but the horse has been out of the barn way too long to turn back the clock, say to the '50's.)

So now the clubs lease, or sometimes own, this fleet of carts.   The more the management, even if it's a committee of members, can persuade the members to ride and pay a fee, the more net income the club can make.   Once that projected net income gets on the forecasted income statement, it's nearly impossible to get it off, and subtle pressure will build for the members to ride.

It is too bad, but there it is.   The irony is that I don't think most clubs correctly account for the cost of operating a fleet of carts, and may not generate as much net as they think.  For example, are the amortized costs of cart paths included in life cycle cost analysis, or the annual costs of maintaining those cart paths?  I doubt it.  There are staffing costs that are probably not segregated.

[Mike Benham]

Not sure promote or advocate is part of the equation ...

CPC, SFGC ...

[John Kavanaugh]

Forget about capital costs as most clubs in America are no longer on their first owner.  Cart paths were as free as the topiary in the shape of the architect.

[Dave Herrick]

It was refreshing to me to arrive at the bag drop at Olympic and see a sign mentioning that the club, as an athletic club, encourages anyone capable of walking the courses to do so. The sign stated that the club would provide a light carry bag to anyone for whom it would be useful. That said, I’ve wondered how many of the club's visitors planning to take a cart or caddie have decided to carry instead, but I appreciate the sentiment. I note also that the old podium, to which the sign was attached, has been replaced, and last I looked, there was no such sign attached to the new podium. May mean nothing.

[Dan Boerger]

Good Lord. One needn't be a rocket scientist to clearly see there's an agenda here at play. A 4th grader could see it. So, as Lloyd rightly points out be it ignorant and self-righteous, or sarcasm ... whatever.

My suggestion still stands. Go to the source. Then, if you can't convince the private clubs to see the error of their ways, go yell a billboard to try and change it's message.  

[Melvyn Morrow]

The question was and still is Can you name any US Private Clubs that promotes riding over walking?

What in Hells name does ignorant, self-righteous and sarcasm has to do with the question and where does it come from - from the real ignorant, self-righteous and sarcastic bastards who can't read.

Melvyn

[Dub_ONeill]

"On the private course side, there are 2 top 100 that I can think of that are not big on caddies (if they offer caddies at all).  1 is Pete Dye GC in West Virginia.  I did not see any caddie shack and was never offered a caddie when I played there.  2 is Double Eagle in Columbus, Ohio.  Both would be very difficult to walk and were not designed for walking."  



 Double Eagle routinely has caddies available, but does not allow players to walk and carry.  I do not understand why one would consider its design not suited to walking.  Tees and greens are close together and the elevations changes are relatively easy to navigate.

[Anthony Butler]

Good Lord. One needn't be a rocket scientist to clearly see there's an agenda here at play. A 4th grader could see it. So, as Lloyd rightly points out be it ignorant and self-righteous, or sarcasm ... whatever.

This thread topic reminds me of a telephone push poll i.e. Would you vote for politician X if you knew they were beating their wife? The person asking the question has no interest in your answer.

Of the top 100 private clubs I periodically play at in the North East (TCC, Salem, Essex County, Winged Foot, Eastward Ho etc...) the only place I have ever ridden at is TPC Boston. I'm not even sure if it was compulsory. Conversely many of the upscale public courses (Red Tail, Shaker Hills) do make you ride, especially on the weekend. Overall, my experience across the US is that if the club has an active caddie program, walking (with a caddie) is the default option. Seems to me that information is pretty widely available on this forum... but only if you care to find it.

[Jerry Kluger]

I have being seeing more and more clubs with caddy programs but members choosing to ride instead.  Perhaps it is the economic conditions today which make it a consideration that a cart may cost $20 while a caddy will cost $75 and up.  The end result is that the caddies sit all day and make no money which is a shame and I told my son not to count on caddying next summer as it is likely that he won't get out very often.

[Garland Bayley]

Melvyn,

You have indeed outdone yourself here. You are ignorant and self righteous. Quite the combo!
The opening assertion is false, therefore the discussion is pointless.
Do us all a favour and delete the post and start again without the economic falsehood and maybe we can have a discussion.

It is my experience that those most willing to label others ignorant and self righteous are truly the ignorant and self righteous ones.

I don't have a lot of private club experience. However, in my limited experience I can name the following.

Sagebrush, quite difficult terrain including that traversed between green and tee. Carts are highly encouraged here.
Sherwood, runs through a neighborhood, It seems to me that carts are encouraged here. They certainly make the long green to tee traversals faster.
Reserve Vineyards, cart fee included in green fee, to me clearly an indication that carts are encouraged over walking.

[Michael George]

While it is a public course, I am not sure that you could walk Wolf Creek in Mesquite.  In fact, it is dangerous enough riding in a cart. 

One crazy, but good, layout.

[Jud_T]

Good, financially sound clubs don't promote riding.

[Michael George]

Jud:

While I am an avid walker and believe that you are correct in general, I think you need to exclude certain clubs from that statement.  Certain golf courses in Arizona and in the mountain states are simply not walkable.  Also, certain clubs in Florida have such an old membership, they don't even offer caddies.   

[Jud_T]

Providing and Promoting are not the same thing.

[Matt MacIver]

At my mid-priced Private, our cart fleet is leased.  We try to lease a certain number of carts such that our cart rental income covers the lease payments, plus a little extra – but it’s not a profit center. 

We do not require mandatory carts at any time, although the topic has been broached, but when the minimal revenue impact is explained the discussion wanes. 

We do however have cement cart paths which add an additional cost.  The cart barn and attendants are likely covered by the little extra above. 

We provide carts therefore as a Member enhancement, ~50% of our rounds are cart-rounds and nearly all of our Monday outings and multi-day tournaments are high cart-usage.  Our total annual rounds would likely be down -25% at least if we didn’t offer carts – and who wants to promote LESS golf? 

I’m a walker but am guilty of cart-using during the heat, or rain, or if someone else wants to, or….

[Jeffrey Conners]

At my mid-level private club, the club does not do nearly enough to promote walking over riding; in fact, I would judge the club to be neutral on the matter.  The caddie master will permit four able-bodied men in their thirties to ride when caddies are available, a shameful thing that wouldn't have happened 20 years ago.  The rise of the golf cart at my club has spawned a myriad of ills (slow play, un-repaired ball marks, turf damage, crowded conditions, etc.) and has left me seriously disenchanted with the place.

I know there are other clubs in my area that do not have caddie programs that surely promote riding over walking.

[Mike Benham]

The question was and still is Can you name any US Private Clubs that promotes riding over walking?

What in Hells name does ignorant, self-righteous and sarcasm has to do with the question and where does it come from - from the real ignorant, self-righteous and sarcastic bastards who can't read.

Melvyn

Two people have replied to the "question" prior to your above post, perhaps you could acknowledge their replies instead of fueling replies from the bastards ...

[Chris Shaida]

The question was and still is Can you name any US Private Clubs that promotes riding over walking?

What in Hells name does ignorant, self-righteous and sarcasm has to do with the question and where does it come from - from the real ignorant, self-righteous and sarcastic bastards who can't read.

Melvyn

Melvyn,

There are some 4.500 private golf clubs in the US.  So I'd really like to answer your question as asked but it's complicated.  First there is the issue of 'promote' vs 'provide'.  Then there is just the shear number of answers.  A guess would be that 90% (or higher!) of US private golf clubs have a fleet of carts (buggies) and so at least 'provide' carts -- so that's a list of 4000 or so names of clubs.  Say then we could even figure out how to distinguish between provide and promote -- say we allowed 'encourage' or 'make it easy' to take a cart to mean 'promote' -- my bet is that the majority of clubs that have  carts would end up being deemed to 'promote' their use.  So that's over 2,000 names!

My bet is that the earlier posts that seemed to try to answer your question by addressing the top 100 (as a loose representation of courses of some historical or architectural interest) probably is the way to get to an answer that you might find useful?

Not to your direct question but maybe to the larger issue of differences between 'private' clubs on the two sides of the pond:  as a member of two clubs in the US and as someone who was fortunate to be a visitor to a number of clubs in Scotland and England I think the model on that side of the pond is VASTLY superior (golf-only, walking-only (or strongly encouraged), lower dues, higher ratio of true golf enthusiasts, friendly to visitors , etc.).  Sadly for me I live on the 'wrong' side of the pond

[Melvyn Morrow]

Mike

Please note my reply #7 and yes I have read with interest all the comments and replies. So to put it on record to those who have been fair and open re my question, I thank you for your constructive information.

Chris, Thanks I take your point , but you will always be welcome here if not in GB&I certainly in Fife. Right Martin!!

Melvyn

[Marty Bonnar]

Almost every GCAer is welcome here!
 
F.

[Chris Shaida]

At a private club, riding carts do not produce revenue. The revenue all comes from the pockets of the members. An accounting fiction which makes it appear that money flows from the carts would seem a first push down the slippery slope that leads to telling members they can not play without using a cart, either always or at certain desirable times.[/color]

Melvyn

Melvyn,  Your a good bit right about the above and a good chunk of the 'revenue' from carts is just a member paying a 'fee' instead of paying a bit more in 'dues'.  But there is often also genuinely additional revenue (not from the pockets of members) related to carts.  it works like this.  Many US clubs generate external revenue from 'outings' whereby some external entity (a business trying to attract/retain clients, a charity trying to raise money, etc.) will pay a club a fee per participant to play at a specified time (generally when members don't want to use the course -- on Mondays or Tuesday mornings).  Clubs generally believe two things: 1) they make money from outings and 2) they couldn't attract many outings if they didn't have carts.  Now both of those things are debatable but it is a fact that most clubs actually bring in a bunch of money (though less today than several years ago!) from 'outside' (ie not from members pockets) this way.  Hope that helps a bit.

To your point about the (actualy very small) subset of Americans willing to pay money for things of historical value and extraordinary beauty there are actually few recent clubs that have been created to cater to that (again very small) market and those clubs often DO have a walking-only policy (for the reasons you cite).  Friars Head and Chechessee are two that come to mind.

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