[Scott Stearns]

Fazio is Hall and Oates---nobody admits to liking him, but they were signed by Ahmet Ertegun,  had 6 number one hits, a bunch of top 10s, and made millions through the 70s and 80s.

For the record i like fazio..but not as much as i like Dye and/or Raynor.

[John Kirk]

Phish's contribution and legacy are tough to overstate.

I agree that Phish will likely enter the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame close to their first year of eligibility.  However, it is not a very exclusive club.  I never listen to Phish, but know that Anastasio is a helluva guitar player.

If you don't mind, Jay, could you please try to explain briefly what you believe Phish's great contribution to popular music is.  I don't see it.  In general, I see popular music as an artform that was more or less fully explored by 1980 or so, and that it is very difficult at this point to reinvent the wheel.  The great musicians in the last 30 years tend to be great practitioners, but not innovators, of a mature art.

It's an interesting exercise, since we have our own criteria for comparing one musician with one architect.  I don't care what Jay Flemma's criteria is; he prioritizes differently.

I like Willie Nelson as Bill Coore:  peaceful, subtle, not flashy but distinctive.
Ben Crenshaw as his friend Waylon Jennings..."Are you sure Mac done it this way?"...that's kind of a joke.

We are talking about the greatest 30-40 golf architects in the last 150 years.  Are we looking at the best and most important popular musicians of the 20th/21st century here?

I like David Kelly's analogy of Fletcher Henderson.  It makes sense to me.

Virtually all my history books say that Louis Armstrong is not only the most important musician, but also the most important singer of the 20th century.  He's the Babe Ruth, the game changer.

I like Tom Doak = Bob Dylan.

[Jay Flemma]

My favorite is the Halloween gig where they play 3 sets and the second set is a double (usually) album of another band as a musical costume.  They did a wonderful job with Remain in Light, The White Album, and Quadrophenia...not so much with Loaded and Waiting for Columbus.  Exile on Main Street was a wonderful choice, but really sloppy when played.  They also did a bang up job on Dark Side of the Moon, but that wasn't on Halloween.  Rumors for the future include Physical Graffiti, Selling England by the Pound, The Wall, and some stuff from the 90s because they keep kicking themselves that they haven't done one from the 90s yet.

[John Kirk]

But I can also see Tom Doak as a bandleader who give their soloists plenty of room to improvise.  Count Basie and Duke Ellington come to mind.

The music analogy has unavoidable shortcomings.

A point about minimalistic architecture.  Some of the modern minimalist classic courses are the most complex golf courses I've ever played.  So I don't like the punk/simple three chord music analogy for minimalists.  It's the big money projects, where the slopes are all smoothed out, and flat lies are guaranteed for drives in position "A", that yield simpler, and therefore less inspiring golf (or music).

Look for the music artist with the most straightforward song structures, unimaginative lyrics, carefully orchestrated without improvisation, with overproduced sound quality.  Big money golf projects that try to impress with volume but fail to inspire...that's a nice analogy.

In general, the current analogies for Tom Fazio are kind of harsh.  How about Neil Diamond?  Impressive early work admired by both players and architects.  Big production mid-period music becomes very popular, but fails to impress the critics.  Then he reinvents himself late in life, adding a few important songs to his resume.

 

[Jeffrey Prest]

I've always thought of Strantz as the Gershwin of golf because he left us far too soon and you can't dwell upon what he created without thinking what he might have come up with, given time.

And the alliteration of 'g's works quite well.

By the way, if this photo is kosher, we need a suggestion for Brian Curley, too.

[Peter Pallotta]

No one has mentioned Joan Armatrading: lovely and low key, but with soul and a groove; lots of influences, but bound together seamlessly, with no one influence dominating. I'd say that's Mike Devries (working with Grandpa Joe Hancock).

Peter

[Jay Flemma]

But I can also see Tom Doak as a bandleader who give their soloists plenty of room to improvise.  Count Basie and Duke Ellington come to mind.

The music analogy has unavoidable shortcomings.

A point about minimalistic architecture.  Some of the modern minimalist classic courses are the most complex golf courses I've ever played.  So I don't like the punk/simple three chord music analogy for minimalists.  It's the big money projects, where the slopes are all smoothed out, and flat lies are guaranteed for drives in position "A", that yield simpler, and therefore less inspiring golf (or music).

Look for the music artist with the most straightforward song structures, unimaginative lyrics, carefully orchestrated without improvisation, with overproduced sound quality.  Big money golf projects that try to impress with volume but fail to inspire...that's a nice analogy.

In general, the current analogies for Tom Fazio are kind of harsh.  How about Neil Diamond?  Impressive early work admired by both players and architects.  Big production mid-period music becomes very popular, but fails to impress the critics.  Then he reinvents himself late in life, adding a few important songs to his resume.

 

No no no   John, you're missing the context here - it's to match the importance of the architect and their career arc - their social zeitgeist if you will - with that of a rock band.

The music is NOT the consideration.  read my piece...it's about the pop cultural impact...

[John Kirk]

So Jay, if I continue to participate in this thread, are you suggesting that I should match the architect with a musical artist whose career covers the same approximate timeline?

[Jay Flemma]

No no no...time has nothing to do with it either.  Continue all you want, in what ever vein you like - but understand what I was doing in the article...matching up the band and how the public reacts to it with the architect and how the public reacts to it.  Its a cultural zeitgeist thing.

Example:

Billy Joel – Devereux Emmet. Chuck Klosterman made an astute observation about Joel – what he did was more important than who he was. Joel was the un-rock star in an era full of bad clothes, too much synth, Euro-pop, and disco. Why do you think the quintessential comparison for “ugly guy-hot girl” is still Christy Brinkley-Billy Joel? His music’s down home simplicity speaks to you in world dominated by so much commercialism. He’s not an archetypal persona, but his creations were archetypal music. While everyone else was blasting away, he wrote “Piano Man” and “For the Longest Time,” and both college kids and their parents listened together while arguing over Frank Sinatra and Beastie Boys.

Emmet’s courses are the same way. Get your ass kicked at a tough Tilly or your sensory overload from Nicklaus or Fazio, then go play an Emmet. You’ll love its Old School earthiness like you love fireworks and flags on the Fourth of July, or warm fruit pies cooling on the windowsill of a wooden Main Street home in a small town, or playing with your child as he/she laughs delightedly and runs into your arms, or getting caught in the rain with your girl and kissing her passionately on the street corner while getting drenched.

[BCowan]

jay

Come stumble my mirth beaten worker
I'm Jezmund the family berzerker
I'm bought for the price of a flagon of rice
The wind buffs the cabin
You speak of your life
Or more willingly Locust the Lurker

Confuse what you can of the ending
And revise your despise so impending
'Cause I soak on the wrath
That you didn't quite mask
I'm getting it clearly through alternate paths
Or mixed in with the signal you're sending
That is genius.  That is over your head

But who can unlearn all the facts that I've learned
As I sat in their chairs and my synapses burned
And the torture of chalk dust collects on my tongue
Thoughts follow my vision and dance in the sun
All my vasoconstrictors they come slowly undone
Can't I live while I'm young?
Another great analogy.  Go learn synapses and vasoconstrictors.

But no peace for Jezmund tonight
I plug the distress tube up tight
And watch what I say as it flutters away
And all this emotion is kept harmless at bay
Not to educate somebody's fright
Dave, Trey and Tom are trying to educate you

is all I need to know about phish
I'm sorry, it just takes more abstract reasoning skills to understand the genius of Tom Mashall's lyrics

oh that and the parking lots full of trustafarians sucking down nitrous balloons  asking for a free ticket
And that wasn't going on at Dead shows? 

[Keith Grande]

Trying to think of who could be ABBA or the Bee Gees?

Wildly popular for a short period of time, then denounced and ridiculed, then celebrated years later as a guilty pleasure?

[John Kirk]

I will wager $1 that Phish is not inducted into the Rock and Roll Hall Of Fame in their first year of eligibility.

[Tim Gavrich]

Pete Dye is Tom Waits. Tremendously influential, not just for how great his originals are, but how many other artists have been positively influenced by his work.

[Peter Pallotta]

Or Pete Dye might be Dave Brubeck or (the recently passed) Horace Silver - top flight craftsmen with all the bona fides who yet managed to get their jazz compositions on the pop charts/college campuses and to big audiences.

[Jud_T]

PP,

I'd say Dye is more likely to be remembered as the Art Blakey of GCA.  A great bandleader who's most lasting contribution is all the sidemen he nurtured during their formative years who became even bigger names in their own right.

[Mike Hendren]

I have not read a single post on this thread but am amused nonetheless at such threads that are a thinly veiled attempt by middle aged men to show how hip they are when it comes to music.   Ranks right up there with the "what are you reading" threads (I started Atlas Shrugged last night close on the heels of re-reading C. S. Lewis' Great Divorce - nice twinbill given Rynd's statements about Lewis).  I thought the genre peaked when Barbara Walters asked some celeb what kind of tree they would be. 

Next up:  Which golf course architects are which Biblical character?  Maybe I could add something intelligent to such a thread.  Then again, unlikely.

You guys are hip and cool happening fools.

Boges

[Nigel Islam]

So would Seth Raynor be a great cover band in this thread?

[Keith Grande]

Old Tom Morris - Robert Johnson

[Scott Warren]

You’ll love its Old School earthiness like you love fireworks and flags on the Fourth of July, or warm fruit pies cooling on the windowsill of a wooden Main Street home in a small town, or playing with your child as he/she laughs delightedly and runs into your arms, or getting caught in the rain with your girl and kissing her passionately on the street corner while getting drenched.

Wow.

[Joe Hancock]

Bogey,

Rynds? How appeeling.

Biblical characters....No names to protect the innocent, but once heard a man describe the architect as Moses(leading the club to the promise land) and his sidekick as Joshua(Moses needed a communicator).

I think I know who TommyKnockers would say had the mark of the beast......

Joe

[Jud_T]

Old Tom Morris - Robert Johnson

Ding ding ding!  We have a winner!

[RJ_Daley]

Grampa Joe, you think you know who Tommy would name?  Hell, he nominated Damian 'Scuzzo I gotta go" with old Bezelbob's moniker and number 666 only about a thousand times on GCA....  

I love the Dave Brubek musician connection, but for me, that has to be the Doakster. A;though, wth the understudies Doak now has trained, he may be moving up to the Count or Duke stage.  l might think in terms of Mike Strantz as Miles Davis, but other than Forest, he has no real understudies.  Maybe Hendrix for Strantz.  If Doak hasn't made it to Count or Duke stage, along the lines of Jud, I'd say Dye had the proteges to be one of them.

And, while this musician matching archies is soooo far over my head with little knowledge of either music or architecture, I'll still take a wild stab at C.B. s Scott Joplin.  

[Peter Pallotta]

What early 20th century philosopher architect denied Cartesian dualism and suggested instead an intimate link between the unextended 'mind' and the extended 'body', the very causal connection that philosopher golf course architects had strenuously objected to in the Victorian Age and again in the Dark Ages that followed the shining burst of short-lived life that was the Golden Age?

Peter

[Joe Hancock]

Mr. Pallotta,

What?

Joe

[Peter Pallotta]

Exactly, Joe. Exactly!!

Actually, just wanted to show Boges that we aren't all hip and happening dudes....tee hee

Peter
(I stole the front end of my post from and old Monty Pyton skit, where the answer was "Ah....Henri Bergson")

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