How do you play the 16th at Bandon Dunes?

[Rich_Goodale]

John

Pardon me, but haven't the Vols alreday whipped the Tigers once this year?  Do you now get mulligans in Southern "football?"

Just wondering.......

[THuckaby2]

Ahhh, Rich, you know darn the great states of Louisiana and Nebraska are worshipping at the altar of the great mulligan of college football, the conference championship game...

You want something more stupid that anything in golf?  Follow the BCS system for college football.  If LSU wins tomorrow, they go to a great bowl and make a lot of money... no problem there... but they also propel Nebraska into the "championship" game at the Rose Bowl... which to get this back to golf, always pisses me off every year because they park cars on Brookside golf course adjacent to it.

Whew!

GO LSU (out of loyalty to JDB - even if it will create the worst championship game situation imaginable...)

TH

[Slag_Bandoon]

I play it poorly but it's my favorite hole regardless.  It's heroic, penal and strategic as well as scenic. With wind at back 5 wood from white tees.  Wind from SW driver to top or mid iron to lower.  It can be played many ways.  Perhaps it needs more containment mounding or framing or some other American design tripe to make it acceptably pop and easy to dance to.  I always find myself looking forward to it and dreading it; it's very provocative.  Apparently.

[Slag_Bandoon]

S h i t e  is unaccaptable to word purifier.  

  s h i t e = nutse

   nutse means what?  

Anybody ever read Anthony Burgess'  "A Clockwork Orange"?  We may be developing a new GCAspeak.

[THuckaby2]

Slag - two things trouble me here:

1. In summer wind (ie behind) the ball won't stop anywhere on the top shelf... it either goes in one of the bunkers (if you're lucky), or through into the deep rough near 17 tee, or even past 17 tee and down the hill!  Even with a 5wood or other very high shot, the ground is too hard and the area too narrow to accept the shot.  That to me is not a good thing.  No, no added mounds, thank you... but still....

2. JDB's idea definitely improves both 16 and 17... so while I typically don't pine for what's not there, in this case I make an exception... especially when I read that perhaps it was Keiser, not Kidd, that made it this way...

Oh well.  It is indeed a provocative hole as is, and that is indeed "something."

TH

[Slag_Bandoon]

So, hard and fast turf is only good when? On straightaway holes?

 Tom, I tried to search for that old thread with us dukin' it out but couldn't come up with it.  I think Gib began original post.  

[THuckaby2]

I can't find that thread either, Slag.  It was a good one.

And hard and fast is great, but there has to be some chance of a good result.  Think about it:  downwind, what reason is there to even TRY and hit it to the upper ledge?  What profit is to be gained?  

Then into the wind, you don't have a chance anyway....

The way the hole is designed defeats strategic choices.  That's not good.  And it's not the conditions that create this, it's the choice of green site and direction and split of the fairway, as designed.

Nope, I stand firm here, as I'm sure you will also!  

But do remember this:  I'm NEVER gonna turn down a chance to play the hole, just as it is... even if I do believe the Bernhardt solution makes so much sense!

TH

[Rich_Goodale]

TH

I know BCS (why they put that superfluous "C: in the middle, I don't know).  Tell me why the 9-3 Tigers (if they do whip the shoeless wonders) should go to a big name bowl while 9-2 Stanford gets to beat up on some second rate engineers from Atlanta in the lovely Glasgow-llokalike city of Seattle?

JB knows exactly what happened to his Tigers in North Juarez (El Paso) 20+ years ago.........

[THuckaby2]

Rich:  Stanford is getting royally screwed, there is absolutely no doubt about it - just add that to the MANY stupidities of the B(C)S system.  I'd agree with you that LSU DESERVES no better bowl than Stanford, even if they knock off TN... I was just reporting the realities of how it would go down if this occurs.

And no offense to our buddy JDB, but I kinda think a game between Stanford and LSU this year would mirror the results from that fateful night in N. Juarez oh so long ago....

There is no valid argument against an 8-team playoff.  The bowl system can live within and outside of this.  2001 is proving this once again....

On another front though, a very key event occurs this evening, in the most VITAL and IMPORTANT of all sports:  women's soccer.  The Beloved Lady Broncos of my alma mater SANTA CLARA UNIVERSITY duke it out with the hated Gators of Florida in the national semifinal.  All this football stuff is just eye-candy compared to this life and death match.

Now back to the 16th at BD... I do need to report one of my buddies found a way to play up the rock shelf on the right... you just need your ball to be stopped by one of the cliff-side bushes!

TH

[Rich_Goodale]

Getting back to the 16th, too--I'm with Slag.  I like it!  (My drive down the right into the gale and blind 6-iron to 5 feet might be swaying me, tho....)

[THuckaby2]

Rich - you played this hole INTO THE WIND?  Interesting... you got the "winter wind" when you were there in September, eh?

It was down wind in varying degrees the 3 times I played it.  It is a better hole into the wind most definitely, I'd have to guess.  

I still like JDB's suggested changes though!

TH

[Rich_Goodale]

Yup

That was my golfing season.  Unseasonal winds at Bandon.  Slow and mushy conditions at NGLA.  A deluge at Kingsbarns.  Bumpy greens at Dornoch.  Walking Pasadera without a Sherpa.

Thank god for Shinnethingy.........

[THuckaby2]

True.  Shinnethingy was as it should be.  I am still blown away myself by that round.

But BD in the "opposite" wind to me sounds cool... nothing wrong with that!

TH

[Rich_Goodale]

Right on, TH.  In fact all those experiences were great, despite the minor glitches (even Pasadera, just for the experience of watching the Mad Armenian in action, before, during and most importantly after the round).....

......I should also add Merion (even with the "Groucho" bunkers) , Gulph Mills, Applebrook, Olympic (Lake and Ocean), MPCC (Dunes and Shore), Pajaro Valley, Aberdour and Pacific Dunes to my "thankful" list.....

Sure I've missed somewhere.....

[THuckaby2]

Amen, brother.  I too have had one hell of a golf year, much to be thankful for, and you were there for one of the best days of it!

I shall not list the experiences here though, for several reasons, not the least of which being I won't take the risk of offending or embarrassing any of my MANY benefactors, and I don't want Mike Cirba mad at me either!

Many thanks to one and all... you guys know how I feel... I  do indeed gush but it is sincere and I am extremely grateful.

TH

[John_D._Bernhardt]

Now lets not get carried away with this book school sillyness. I thought Stanford was playing in Seattle so the techies could drink coffee together and trash talk each other, ie you know Oracle sucks, not as bad as microsoft. Oh yes I do remember that horid day in el paso when the team with a color for a mascot beat my beloved tigers. I will play them all day and night this year. As for mulligans, one man's mulligan may be another man's championship game. I am so glad to have a chance to take two out of three from the vols, ie shoeless people and lovers of kin in the most personal of ways. I am taping up now getting drink orders and hotesses set for the plane in the morning. It is time for all great Tigers everywhere to stand up and say what can I do to help the Tigers beat  Tennessee. One great Tiger Charlie Mac and 20 year coach for us in the 60's and 70's went to football heaven today. god bless him, he is upstairs making sure the table is level and doing his part for greatness. On one great night in the mid 80's when we were in the final four playing bounceball as charlie mac called it, we purchased drinks for several hours into the future and set up and ran plays from the 66 cotton bowl till 4 in the morning. A great Tiger he is and was and always will be. LSU 35 Tenn 31.

[John_D._Bernhardt]

Oh Rich, I do like the Royal Kabul action too. How do you do that and the Homer J. pictures.

[THuckaby2]

JB - click on Profile above, then scroll down to Personalized Picture, then pick the one you want.  Oh yes, HJS seemed appropriate to me.  I had Elmer J. Fudd yesterday.

Cheers!

TH

[Rich_Goodale]

John

Are you talking about my delayed-hit hand "action?"  If so, just make sure to pronate the upper quadrant of the left pectoral before kicking out your right little piggy to start the downswing.

I say "Go Tigers" too for no other reason that you seem to be a nice guy and bought my daughters lunch one day (I owe you!).

As for Stanford, we gave up on that "student-athlete" crap many years ago.  These days we tell the kids who want to get an education and really don't live and die for football to go and play for Notre Dame.

[John_D._Bernhardt]

I agree with Rich, the 16th is ok unto the wind, but as Tom has pointed out nothing works on the hole down wind which is when 80% of the rounds are played. Oh yes the BCS madness is just that. The system stinks and brings the group in the same low esteem as the olympic movement and Bud Selig. A 16 team playoff would make 10 fold the cash the current sytem does and help fund poor schools and title 9 sports as well as those vital matches in ladies soccer. How are conference championship games of vital econmic importance when they are usually rematches when playoffs are not. hmm

[Jim Haley]

Jim, David Kidd has been busy Queenwood Golf Club In Surry, England just opened and this summer he built the second course at Powerscourt, Dublin He is currently in construction on the Big Island of Hawaii doing another private course for Charles Schwab and George Roberts

[Slag_Bandoon]

 Here's a nice picture of the hole.  The actual tee pads are about thirty yards to the right of camera perspective.   See rendering on left.   Summer wind from North (behind)  --  Winter from Southwest.  

     http://www.bandondunesgolf.com/.docs/pg/hole16.html

    

[Gib_Papazian]

Look, the hole is not a complete abortion - despite what the soon to be disappointed Tiger believes. Sorry John, I'll be rooting for your boys, but don't bet the farm.

And no USC jokes! Heck, we made a pretty good turn-around after our worst start since Kennedy was prowling the White House.

Now, onto the subject at hand:

The hole could be improved by doing the following:

A. Move the tee back and to the left as far as possible. The angle is to perpindicular.

B. Formalize the right side of the lower shelf into fairway.

C. Modify the waste area to introduce as close to a 45 degree angle as possible from top right to bottom left.

D. Knock down the hill on the right side along the cliff at the edge of the upper shelf to introduce a look at the pin from the lower shelf for those who lay up.

E. Construct an additional waste area/ bunker complex as a backstop on the South side of the upper shelf.

F. Take a bulldozer and push the existing green over the cliff into the Pacific Ocean, making sure no nude sunbathers are directly below.

G. Reconstruct a larger green that would present appropriate approach shot targets from both the lower right fairway and the upper.

H. Consider some fairway bunkering on #17 by introducing an alternate fairway type configuration going diagonally across the existing basin. It might jazz it up a bit and give an easier angle to players who can carry the bunkers to the left.

Of course, to my recollection, this might impact the safety of the 14th tee . . . . . I would have to look.  

[John_D._Bernhardt]

Well, It was a happy plane full of 8 tigers last night and millions world wide. We took the vols best punches, brought in our reserves and whip them on the line in the 2nd half. It was a great night to be a Tiger Gib and no I did not bet the farm but enough to cover some expenses. thanks for the support of different levels guys. as for 17 gib, why can we all just get along. Your plane would be loved by Jack. Let spend alot of money, move alot of dirt and see if we can get close to what god put on the ground naturally. The natural holes are there already and superior to any man can manufacter even with Jacks budgets.

[Gib_Papazian]

John,
#1. I’m sorry to see that you lack the necessary powers of visualization to grasp the sublime genius of my suggested improvements. Hopefully you will one day see the error in your ways and come to realize that your plan will cost just as much as mine while failing to deliver the essential quirk and charm we strive for here in the Treehouse.

#2. It has always been my conviction that our discussions should never degenerate into insensitive, inflammatory and insulting name-calling. Frankly, your vulgar comparison was uncalled for and befitting a lesser man than I thought you were. To imply that any conception of mine - even in the theoretical universe of cyberspace - can possibly be rationally compared to something Nicklaus might conjure up is a horrifying embarrassment. Why don’t you just accuse me of suggesting chocolate drops along the western perimeter of the property to enhance the view of the Pacific Ocean? And all along I thought we were friends. . . . . . .