How do you play the 16th at Bandon Dunes?

[Ran Morrissett]

And does it play better in either the summer or winter wind?

It is certainly one of the most inspiring spots in golf and at the same time, it was never clear how to play it in the three days that we were there - both admirable traits.

The angle of the green along the coastline seems to suggest that coming at it from the lower fairway may be preferrable and yet, as I recall, the shot is virtually blind from down there and it seemed like no bargain at all to me.

Has anyone heard Kidd describe his intentions in designing that hole?

Cheers,

[W.H. Cosgrove]

Summer you take three wood and blast into the bunker next to the green. Take care with this downwind shot because to much juice puts you over the fairway and ito the deep stuff.

Winter, with the wind from the south a three wood or driver to the left is preferable.  Second shot is perfect for hitting it into the wind and having it land softly on the putting surface.  

I made that sound easy  Green really needs to be shored up on the ocean side.  It just seems to difficult to keep a ball on that small and unreceptive site.  But it is certainly gorgeous!

[Bill McBride]

Ran, what wind were you playing? That makes all the difference. When we were there in August for the only round we played at Bandon, the wind was from the north. I drove up against the hill, was only 100 yds out, but was completely blind.  I don't know how you could ever have a comfortable shot there!

[Mike Erdmann]

That's a good question, and I think the answer depends not only on which direction the wind is coming from, but perhaps more on the intensity of the wind.  Personally, I think the hole plays easier during the summer (north) wind.  With the wind at your back, you can hit a driver to the upper fairway close to the green, or even a three wood to the left side of the upper fairway.  I've even seen the green driven with a strong wind from the north.

During winter, with the wind from the southwest, it gets real dicey.  If you can't get up onto the upper fairway, you're going to have a blind shot to the green.  No question about it.  If the wind's not terribly strong, you can play a driver to the far left side of the upper fairway.  When the wind's a'blowin, like it often does this time of year, I think the safest and best play is to hit it left along the left side, realizing that you're not going to get to the upper fairway.  I like the angle of the second shot better from that side, because the wind is right in your face hitting to the green.  If you hit it more to the right along the lower fairway, it's likely that a strong cross wind is going to grab your second shot and wreak havoc.  And remember, when we talk about strong winter winds from the southwest at Bandon Dunes, gusts well in excess of 50 mph aren't uncommon at all.  Speaking of which, I'm headin' out at 3:30am tomorrow morning for Bandon, where we'll be playing 36 holes on Pacific Dunes over two days in driving rain and howling winds.  While I can do without the rain, I'm looking forward to seeing how PD plays in the winter winds.

[Tom Huckaby (Guest)]

Ran - there was a great battle over this in a LONG thread previously on this DG - perhaps it can be dug out of the archive?  I sure don't know how...

In any case my bone of contention against 16 BD - and this is what keeps it out of even an HM on my best 18 list - is that in the summer wind, there is literally NO place to put the tee shot.  Cos described it right - it's a 3wood to the upper shelf and you are HOPING it stays in one of the green side bunkers.  That to me isn't golf... Aim for a bunker and hope to get in it or your ball is lost or worse?  Sorry.... I have yet to play it in the opposite wind, but darn right the shot from below is no bargain - totally blind and quite long also.  It's an interesting hole, hell any that sparks this type of conversation is great by me... I'd just think Kidd needs to do something about the upper fairway to make this a GREAT hole.  

Erdmann, you are a man after my own heart - have a blast today!

TH

[Ran Morrissett]

Tom,

One of the GREAT benefits of this new DG is that search engine will work - once all the threads are converted over. I must have missed this topic before - do you recall if the general consensus was thumbs up or down?

My experience was that it was the firmest of the 36 greens, given its exposed nature. With that in mind, I think it is perhaps a shame that you can't come down the length of the green i.e. that you can't hug the coastline and have a great angle in.

Mike, Tom, anyone who has played it a bunch,

Is there anyway to bring the right more into play? It really could be a great risk/reward tee shot, don't you think? And it would come at a thrilling time in your match too.

[Rich_Goodale]

When I played in Sep. it was calm on day one and the play was to hit 3w, 5W, long iron, etc. up the left.  A deceiving shot visually (looks longer than it is) but once you get the distance right, pretty easy.  Day 2 it was a 2-3 club wind against and the right play seemed to bit to hit far left (i.e. no carry of the grunge in the middle of the split fairway).  However, I came off the ball and ended up on the lower right bit, which turned out to be the right line, if you don't mind a little blindness.  Straight up the chute into the back-front angle of the green.

I think it is a fascinating hole.  I'll have to play it in a following wind, however, to say anything more.

[W.H. Cosgrove]

Ran, I have probably played the hole a dozen times now.  In all three wind conditions; NW, SW, and none.  The green sits on a shelf of rock,  Not even sure how they even keep the grass growing.  As I said in my original post, until there is some way to contain the ball on that exposed and small putting surface, the hole will continue to be controversial.  

I have the feeling that if it sat on any other piece of land it would have been mauled as unfair.  However, As it sits on one of the most stunning locations on the planet, it will remain controversial.  It will also continue to frustrate and confuse as it really does require two very good shots no matter which of the multitude of routes you choose.

[Ran Morrissett]

Cos, is the 16th one of your 4/5 favorite holes on the course?

Having played the course a dozen times, which holes have overalll given you the most fits/challenge?

[W.H. Cosgrove]

Probably not in my top 4/5 for playability.  Would have to place 4,5, 7, 14, 15, and 17(with adjustments made last spring) ahead of 16.  Maybe others but those are the ones that come to mind today!!

For beauty #16 would be ranked in my top 10 all time.  

As far as giving me fits...4, 5, 6 (particularly before changes), 11 and 15 have all driven me to frustration.  Bandon is fairly straight forward in a low wind situation.  When the wind blows, different holes gain difficulty.  I know you have been to Bandon so you understand.  

I am particularly interested in returning to play Pacific Dunes in windier conditions.  I have yet to play it in a Southwesterly.

[Ran Morrissett]

Cos,

Not that there is an average there, but in general what do you hit into the one shotters? The days we were there, the 2nd, 6th, 12th, and 15th would have called for - more or less -a 1, 3, 2, and 3 iron respectively. Cumulatively, they must rank amongst the most difficult set I've seen - and that's before a three club wind kicks up  

When you have fared OK on those four, has the rest of your round fallen nicely into place?

Cheers,

[John_Conley]

RAN:  When David spoke to our group there was more discussion on #5, which was running into the wind and giving us fits.  We had #16 dw, which meant it was an easy lay-up (the hole played MUCH better when I played from the back tee) or a daring poke over if you played a forward tee.

I seem to remember him saying he wanted a par 4 instead of two par 3s across that difficult part of the site, but don't hold me to that.

That back tee INTO the wind would give you fits!

[John_Conley]

Ran:  I forgot to add the part about DMK discussion of the 5th!  He said he didn't care what anyone shot and had match play in mind, so I'm sure he'd say the same about the 16th.  Lose your teeshot going for a daring line to the green?  So what!

[W.H. Cosgrove]

Ran,
Club selection at The par threes almost defies description.  Dependent on tees and wind condition the club selsction can be radically different.  Hitting from one tee box up( blues?,not the tips) I remember hitting anything from 3-5 iron on #2, 6-3 iron on #6, 6-2 iron on #12 ( I loved it hitting that 2 iron. ended up in the pit)  #15 7-3 iron.  

The beauty of Bandon or Pacific for that matter is how both Kidd and Doak balanced the golf courses for the opposing wind directions.  When we look at routings this has to be a big plus for these coastal courses.  Had the courses been out of balance, the player would be whip sawed between feeling like it was short and feeling that it was unplayable.  With the balance that the architects built in, it is easier to approach each hole as a part of the whole and  allows the player to maintain a positive approach to the round. This is supposed to be fun, afterall.  

Too often outside restrictions like housing etc. restrict the designer from achieving that kind of balance.

[Scott_Burroughs]

(My first post in the "new GCA")  

I think the way to play this hole depends on the situation.  If you're just there play for the first time or so, no match on the line, don't know if you'll ever get back to Bandon, GO FOR IT!  Like we've said in a past thread, you only live once. It depends on how you're feeling with the driver that day.  If you're playing for money with a lot on the line, you might be more conservative if you're ahead, not so if you're behind.  If your opponent knocks one in the ocean, hit a 5-iron to the right side or maybe a 3-iron to the left.  I think the spirit of the question asks for a lofted longish club to the left side (in summer winds) so it won't go through the fairway.  Maybe 3- or 5-wood (if you have one) or 3-iron. Going for the green requires a high power fade (Ncklaus would like it).

My two tries on the hole, of course I went for it, and didn't make it, oh,well.  One went in the far right end of the dividing gorse area above the end of the right fairway.

[Mike Erdmann]

Mike, Tom, anyone who has played it a bunch,

Is there anyway to bring the right more into play? It really could be a great risk/reward tee shot, don't you think? And it would come at a thrilling time in your match too.

Yeah, I think that the right side could be brought into play more.  If you recall, there's what appears to be a large sandstone shelf running along the right side of the hole, stopping just short of the green.  The fairway sits about 3 or 4 vertical feet above this shelf.  Perhaps that area could be capped with sand closer to the green, extending the fairway closer to the ocean, allowing the option of a risk/reward gambling drive right at the green.  As it is now, trying to drive the green is near impossible.

[John_D._Bernhardt]

The 16th is the worst hole on the course period. There is a great par 3 sitting their and Kidd missed it. You put the green on the cliff at the base of the ridge which is a natural green site. You have the chasim 50 years in front which is more in your mind than in play. a great natural hole and it gives one room to make 17 into a great par 4 rather than the 2nd worst hole on the coutrse.  In the summer wind from the north, the best waty to play the hole is make a semiblind 5 wood to driver shot at the green. It is dangerous because the people on 17 tee are in play and cannot see the shot coming. A 7iron to 5 iron short is a blind 2nd shot and a 5 to4 iron on the ridge is almost impossible to stop in a strong down wind. In the winter wind from the south as noted above it at least plays like a golf hole with some option and is playable. the green does need shoring up though.

[John_D._Bernhardt]

On and back to the par 3 that is not there but should be and hopefully will be. It can play as short from the back tees as a 150 shot running in to a 220 shot into the wind. There is sufficient space to bounce or run it in in a down wind, yet a strong fairway wood or long iron into the wind with the ocean to be concerned with in winter. It is about 185 to 210 from the back tees as currently set up. Next time you are there look at this hole and dream of what could be.

[Tom Huckaby (Guest)]

We have indeed discussed this before and let me go on record as offering 100%, complete, total concurrence with the esteemed Mr. Berhardt here.  I was once ranting and complaining that there's nowhere to put the tee shot on 16 in the summer wind, and he offered the idea of making it a par 3 as described above... then picture 17 tee on top of the cliff, where upper 16 fairway is now... make that a dogleg with natural scrub left, bunker it up, fairway basically where it is now more or less... that makes for two great holes where two very iffy ones sit now.

There must be a reason Kidd didn't do it this way... it can't be for the total par issue....

In any case, well thought and well said, John.

BTW, you have a little game to watch this weekend, don't you?  Normally I'd be whole-heartedly rooting for the beloved bayou bengals, but then I read if they win Nebraska gets rose bowl slot... damn that is nauseating, given how they were just bashed by Colorado... oh well, blood and loyalty comes first.  GO LSU!!!

TH

[John_D._Bernhardt]

Good friend and perpetual guest Tom, It is funny how improvements do not always feel like improvements. This site seems slower than the old one. lol Also, we seem to be creating a class system based on partisipation. It is a good thing Ran does not deduct for spelling.  I hope this idea for 16 catches on and thanks for finishing the thought with a description of 17 for BD will be a much better course with the changes.  Now to the REAL ISSUE AT HAND GOOOOO TIGERSSS!!!!!. The plane with 8 great tigers leaves lafayette at 9am on sat and returns 1.5 hours after the favorite haunts of pro football players close sat night. I am gathering tickets to the game as we speak. It is then time to start getting taped and ready to play. Have i told you about the sad plight of tenn people. Many of them live in places called "hollers" and do not have shoes. ie the expression "shoesless ones" is used to describe people from tenn. The other favorite comment is to ask a vol if he wanted to bet on whether he or you slept with his sister first. Usually he wins the bet but you have a good laugh.I am very ready for the game and I am also sad that nebraska might slip in. the BCS is a poor excuse for a system GO Tigers and take care my friend.

[Tom Huckaby (Guest)]

JB - I figured you'd be in attendance for this one.  Love the Tennessee lines also - I'm gonna forward those to my inlaws - being Vanderbilt grads, the "hated Vols" are discussed in this manner all the time.

Of course, there must be certain good lines out there about Vanderbilt itself, but that's neither here nor there...

In any event, I nominate yours for post of the year, non-golf humor category!

Now back to Bandon Dunes, when are we gonna get our bulldozer and make these changes happen?

TH

[John_D._Bernhardt]

tom, soon i hope!! I keep thinking Doak will note them and take it to Mike. It is way to practical and frankly easy and relatively inexpensive to do. Then Bandon Dunes will be a top 100 course in my eyes. When 2 or your last three holes are wek it is hard to see it as a top course.

[Bill_McBride]

or is it "Bayou Bengals?"

John D, congratulations on the resurgence of your LSU Tigers! They did beat up Auburn and hopefully will add Tenn to the list.  Maybe Oregon (home of Bandon and Pacific Dunes) will then slip into the Rose Bowl, where a Pac 10 team certainly deserves to play host!

[jim_lewis]

O.K., so there is a great view from the 16th green. If it is a great view I want, I can just pull over at one of the scenic overlooks that you find along many highways.

My suggestion is to skip #16, walk out to the edge of the green, enjoy the view, and move on to the 17th tee.

It's just a bad hole, period. A flagrant example of an owner caring more about taking advantange of a spectacular greensite than the quality of the course design. I say owner because the distinct impression I got from David Kidd was that it was the owner who insisted that he use that site for a green. I guess it would be too much to expect a young architect like Kidd to buck the wishes of the owner.

By the way, many of us thought that Bandon Dunes would establish David Kidd as an architect in the U.S.  Does anyone know anything about where his career has gone since Bandon?

[John_D._Bernhardt]

Now lets not let this make 16 and 17 good holes drop. Lets pick it up GCA. And here we go tigers , here we go. Gooooo tigers beat those vols.