[Mark Saltzman]

Mark,

Outside of the water......which is only evident on a few holes at WV.

1)  The hairy deep bunkers
2)  The rolly polly up and down nature of the holes
3)  The long views
4)   The undulating greens
5)   Prarie-style type golf in general.

Kalen and Andy,

Thanks for the discussion, nice to see at least a couple of guys are interested in this thread!

Though the course does have a bit of similarity to WV, like I said before, if you're actually out there I really doubt WV will spring to mind.

1) Yes the bunkering is similar in appearance, though I believe the bunkering is much better in terms of design.  It seemed like every bunker at WV was there for a reason.  There is much more superfluous bunkering (fluff) at HS.  It's pretty sometimes and overwhelming sometimes.

2) The elevation changes are much more significant at WV.  The land on which HS is built was completely flat and much of it was wetlands.  An unbelievable amount of dirt was moved to build the course and any movement in the fairways is man-made.  While some holes do have a rolly feel to them (like 7), there are no significant elevation changes like 18 at WV.

3) Agreed, though any view looking east gives a view of Driggs, ID.  You don't have the same sense of isolation as you do at WV.

4) Agreed, though the greens at HS are certainly more wild.  Awfully close to Ballyneal wild, complete with backstops and sideboard.  

5) Agreed.

RE what Andy said about a best way to play a hole: WV was more straightforward in that sense - it was more defined.  There was always a good side of the fairway and a bad one; a good place to miss the green and a bad one (of course there are varying degrees of good and bad).  At HS, there are many, many split-fairway type holes and many holes with varying routes off the tee based on ability.  I actually preferred WV in this sense.  I feel Kidd got carried away with the idea of options such that he made some of the holes so wide and with such varying choices of the tee that some of the choices make no sense.  As has been discussed on GCA before, it is very difficult to design a split fairway hole.  Too often only one route actually makes sense and 95% of players go that route.  That is what happened (I think) at HS.  Playing with one of the pros, a few times I asked "does anyone ever use that route?"  On a couple of occassions I heard, "well, we have one member who plays to that side," or, "yeah, but not on purpose."

Much like The Prairie Club (Dunes), HS offers vastly different varying lines of play on many holes, but I think TPC did this more effectively. 

My personal preference is WV or HS, though both are good to great.  I see WV as Top 50 modern and HS probably around the 100 level, perhaps a bit higher.  I'd split rounds 7-3 in favor of WV.    

[Jud_T]

Mark,

Thanks for posting the HS pix.  I've been intrigued by this course since inception...Doak 6 or 7 in your opinion?

[Mark Saltzman]

Mark,

Thanks for posting the HS pix.  I've been intrigued by this course since inception...Doak 6 or 7 in your opinion?

Jud,

I probably would have said a 7, but in speaking with another GCAer on Monday I came to the conclusion that I probably overstate my Doak scores, so I'll say it's a 6 (even though I would drive 100 miles to see HS).

[Mark Saltzman]

Hole 9: Par 5, 618 Yards

Though there is a fair bit of width this is one of the toughest tee shots on the course with a forced carry to the fairway and trouble on both sides.




The second shot forces the player to decide whether or not to challenge the three fairway bunkers that cross into the centre of the fairway about 160 yards from the green.  Laying-up short of them leaves a long, blind approach.  Playing to the right leaves a difficult angle into the green.





From 100 yards out the approach is straightforward to one of the tamest greens on the course.




A huge falloff left of the green is not visible from the fairway and is most in play after lay-ups to the right of the fairway bunkers.




From behind one can see the falloff to the side of the green and the water that is in play all the way down the left side of the fairway.

[Mark Saltzman]

Hole 10: Par 5, 591 Yards

The second P5 in a row playing ~600, and it plays in almost the exact same wind direction.  If into the wind, traversing these over 1200 yards would be a bit of a slog for sure.  Reversing the 9s, as the pro suggested was a possibility, would solve this problem.

This is a really tough tee shot with water all the way down the right and bunkers  that pinch into the DZ around 220 yards out (270 to carry them).  With the hole playing over 590 yards, laying up short of 220 is not really an option, so one must challenge the narrow opening.  If the 9s are reversed, this is one heckuva tough opening tee shot.




From ~300 yards out one is left with a decision to play to the right or left of the centreline bunkers guarding the lay-up area.  Shots played up the left can be hit as far as the player wants, but shots played to the right will have to beware of the creek snaking through the fairway.




The approach is no bargain with water left and bunkers right.  The green slopes hard from right to left so shots missed in those bunkers have a tough time getting the ball to stop on the green.











Hole 11: Par 3, 145 Yards

Looks a lot like the 8th.  A pretty P3 over water with a difficult green.  Hit it in the correct section or else.  The most distinguishing feature of the green is a massive hump in the back centre separating the left and right portions of the green.

[Mark Saltzman]

Hole 12: Par 4, 463 Yards

Choice off the tee is partially dictated by pin position.  Bunkers in the middle of the picture are centreline bunkers and about 235 yards to carry.  Fairway runs out around 260 to the left of the centreline bunkers and there is lots of room to the right but this is the longest way in.




Approach to the green is protected by two fronting bunkers




One of the wildest greens I have ever seen.  Three distinct levels and really sloping backstops.







Hole 13: Par 4, 328 Yards

This hole is another good example of what I meant when I said there is visual confusion off the tee. This hole, to me, looks like a jumble of fairways, marsh and bunkers.  One can bailout to the right, but most players will choose whether or not to challenge the left bunkers.




From right of left bunker




From left of left bunker




Another wild green at HS

[Mark Saltzman]

Hole 14: Par 4, 394 Yards











Hole 15: Par 5, 569 Yards

Another split-fairway hole.  Play it right (about 225 yard carry) and the green will easily be in reach in two.  Play it left and you minimize the forced carry and you still might be able to get home in two, depending on the wind.






View from left fairway




View from right fairway - notice green is much more receptive to shots from the left, minimizing benefit of taking the risk and playing up the right side.




From 100 Yards Out

[Mark Saltzman]

Hole 16: Par 4, 369 Yards

Another split-fairway hole.  The right is the obvious choice because of the extra width and the pinching nature of the hazard on the left. 




The approach from the right is played over a large bunker that largely obscures the view of the pin and putting surface.




The approach is more appealing from the left as the green is open from there.




Front-left pins are fairly simple.  Back-right pins are tough because of a large slope just over the back of the bunker protecting the green.




A look back.





Hole 17: Par 3, 122 Yards

The final P3 again, in isloation, is very interesting.  Played over water to a very interesting green with backstops, bowls and scary protecting bunkers.  Though it is a bit shorter, this hole feels quite a bit like 2 of the other P3s at HS.









Hole 18: Par 4, 357 Yards

Somehow 18 feels like it would be better as the 9th.  It is a 250 yard carry over the bunkers on the right.  If successful, the ball should bound down somewhere just short of the green.  The conservative play is to the left of the bunkers.






Shots played to the left are left with an approach over a deep, protecting bunker.




Shots played to the right will kick down into this area.

[Jud_T]

Mark,

That 17th green looks scary. What speed were they stimping at?  Is it possible to putt off the green there?

[Mark Saltzman]

Mark,

That 17th green looks scary. What speed were they stimping at?  Is it possible to putt off the green there?

Jud,

The 17th is indeed a scary green -- one of many very difficult greens at Huntsman Springs.

I am a very bad judge of speed on the stimpmeter as I don't know that I've played anywhere that gave me a reliable reading (other than Joe Shmoe who I play with saying, "these are fast, they must be at least 13 or 14").  I would call them normal private club fast.  Pretty similar to how the greens were at Kingsley when I played it.  Maybe a touch faster than that.  The type of speed that a putt can get away from you if you aren't paying attention, but not so fast that if you're on the wrong side of the hole you might putt it off the green.  They were comfortable.

[Tiger_Bernhardt]

Huntsman had a few good looking greens. I do not think I would enjoy the course at all. Those look like Bandon Dunes bunkers. I am not sure what to say other than I will not rush to play there. Thanks for going to trouble to take pictures of so many holes. I actually liked the holes on Teton pines best of the ones on here. Shooting Star is the prize in the area as best I can tell.

[Mark Saltzman]

Huntsman had a few good looking greens. I do not think I would enjoy the course at all. Those look like Bandon Dunes bunkers. I am not sure what to say other than I will not rush to play there. Thanks for going to trouble to take pictures of so many holes. I actually liked the holes on Teton pines best of the ones on here. Shooting Star is the prize in the area as best I can tell.

Tiger,

Thanks for the comments.

I believe the greens at Huntsman are the strength of the course.  They are huge, they are sloping, and they are wildly undulating.  From only one play it is very hard to tell whether their size leads to interest on repeat plays or not, but I suspect it does.

What about the course does not appeal to you?  I am surprised there was not further discussion from other GCAers.

As I have made clear, Shooting Star is the prize in the area.  The more I think about it, the better it gets (rare for Fazio designs, in my mind).  I will post some pictures, probably even a complete tour, but at the moment I am enjoying working on the Crystal Downs thread.

[Alex Miller]

I really have very little knowledge of maintenance costs, but there seems to be a ridiculous amount of mown surface. I'm all for options, but like many things about the course the abundance of split fairways seems slightly over the top.

That said, I'd love to play it sometime.

[Lance Rieber]

Mark, seems like you had a great summer playing.  We had our Section championship at Huntsman this August.  I really enjoyed the course, thought it was really playable.  I do think you need to see the course a couple of times before you get real comfortable with the shots.  It is very intimidating off the tee.  You see so much trouble but the fairways are wide (except number 4) you should have no trouble.  The winning score for 2 rounds was 6 under and the player made 13 birdies in two days.    It is very playable if you are controlling your irons and distances, lots of backboards and sideboards to use.  I really enjoyed the course and Tony Snoey and his staff are excellent.  Looking forward to Shooting Star and Headwaters, also Teton Reserve.  Keep them coming. Thanks

[Mike Hendren]

Greens look Enghish.

[Mark Saltzman]

Shooting Star GC

Some information taken from: http://www.shootingstarjh.com/jackson-hole-golf.html


The Routing




Scorecard Info




Hole 1: Par 4, 392 Yards




A very good opening hole that calls for a draw off the tee and a fade into the green.  At elevation, 392 yards is a short hole, and should be nothing more than fairway wood - wedge. 

The pin is in view from the tee, over the bunkers on the left, tempting the players to challenge the left side.  Although there is lots and lots of room to the right, my caddie said the left rough/bunkers see a lot of action.






The approach is fairly straightforward, uphill and open in front.  Pictured is a back-right pin, located on a small and very difficult to access piece of the green.  There is plenty of room to miss long in a chipping area.




Green from left.





Hole 2: Par 3, 199 Yards





Difficult and picturesque par-3.  Wouldn't be too much of a stretch to call it a reverse-redan, but the tees are a bit too far to the right to take full advantage of the slopes. 




Picture from right of the green shows the bank/slope of the back portion of the green.  If one can sling a cut and get it riding that ridge, you can land it left of the green and get it all the way down to a back-right pin.




Hole 3: Par 5, 594 Yards




This is a great par-5!  The bunker on the left is really an aiming bunker as it is some 330 yards off the tee. Challenging the bunker/water on the right leaves a much preferred angle/view for the second shot.




The second shot is phenomenal -- certainly not the typical, dull lay-up as there are MANY options. 

First-off, the tee shot dictates the play on the second.  The farther left the tee shot, the worse the view, as that bunker on the left blocks the view of the fairway.

Three main choices:

1) Go for it in two - again, remember, we're at elevation so it is reachable by lots of players.  The green is very shallow, but it slopes significantly from back-to-front so shots landing on the green will stop, and there is tons of room to miss long.

2) Lay-up over the water - There is about 80 yards of fairway over the water on the right.  The approach from here is much easier as you are playing up the throat of the green.  Getting to this area is much, much easier after a tee shot down the right.  I can't see going for this if you hit your tee shot down the left.

3) Lay-up short of the water - even here there are choices.  If you lay back to 130 yards, you don't have to flirt with any water on the lay-up.  If you want less than 130 yards in, you have to play it up the left portion of the fairway, which means you must challenge the water that cuts through the middle of the fairway.






From about 150 yards out.  Notice how the water cuts into the middle of the  fairway forcing the player to make a decision on the lay-up.




From 100 yards out in the left portion of the fairway.

[Andy Troeger]

The third is really a cool hole. I made an ill-advised choice to go for it on the second shot and hit a big pull. Its an interesting second shot, especially with the pin where it is in the photos. To that left pin, laying up right seems like a bit of an unnecessary risk, but laying up back and left doesn't leave an easy shot either. Perhaps all of that lured me into going for it when I shouldn't have. Creates thought, which has to be a good thing!

#1 and 2 are decent enough holes too, they get things off to a good start.

[Mark Saltzman]

Comments to come.

Hole 4: Par 4, 371 Yards




Kind of a typical cape hole.  Lots of slope in the fairway toward the water.  Bunker on the right is more an aiming bunker than anything as it's about 280 yards off the tee.  The green is driveable for some as it's about 320 on a straight line.






Green looks tiny from the fairway, on a peninsula, but it's reasonably big.  Lots of internal contouring and a 'bump' in the middle of the green place a premium on hitting the green in the right section.





Hole 5: Par 4, 532 Yards




This is a unique green and probably my favorite hole on the course.

TONS of width (as long as you can carry the centreline bunker) -- the fairway is probably 100 yards wide.  Even if you can't carry the centreline bunker, you can play left of it to leave the ideal line into the green.  If not, there is a lot of room to hit it right.




This green is awesome.  I feel like it was very ballsy to build a perched green on such a long hole.  The greensite looks very natural, on top of a small hill, with gentle undulations that blend into the mountains behind. 








Hole 6: Par 3, 256 Yards




6 and 7 are the worst two holes on the course -- a shame that they come back-to-back. 

A very long par-3 with forced carry though there is alot more room to miss short and right than there appears.  Lots of slope on the green back-to-front.

[Sean Leary]

Mark,

Number 5 almost looks to me like it could be at Rock Creek...

[Ben Sims]

#5 is by far the best looking of the bunch so far at Shooting Star.  I'm sure Fazio gave the client what he wanted, but I can't begin to dream why water is such a prevalent theme thus far in the golf course.  I think it totally overshadows the fact that one of the greatest clefts of granite on the planet is staring you down.  But #5 finally makes the surrounds the star.  Created or not, the fairway is very inviting.

However, in regards to the drawing of #5 green, Fazio and his guys must be on the cutting edge.  Because I have no idea what "simplier" contours are. 

[Sean Leary]

Simplier is the opposite of Doakier.

[Andy Troeger]

I think Mark described the 5th very well--I'll leave it with what he said. Great hole.

I disagree with his comments on #6 and #7. They aren't the best holes on the course, but neither is especially weak. #6 is a rather typical forced carry par three. Its only 170-180 from the regular tees to a pretty big target with a lovely background--I can think of far worse. I'm perhaps biased too--I hit it to a foot and made two! 

Will save the comments on #7 until after it is posted.

[Mark Saltzman]

I disagree with his comments on #6 and #7. They aren't the best holes on the course, but neither is especially weak.

Andy,

I didn't say either 6 or 7 was terrible, I just said they were the worst two holes on the course.

I agree on 6, it's not especially weak, but it's just a kind of nothing hole.  It's fine, it's ordinary.

Eager to hear your comments on 7.  I didn't 'get' that hole, but hopefully you can open my eyes.

[Andy Troeger]

Lets just say I am beginning to develop a theory, Mark, that you don't like holes that are drivable par fours only by long hitters! (Dormie #14 being the other in the trend). Admittedly, for most others the 7th is probably a layup and a wedge. For those that can make it, the green creates some angst for close misses--certainly no easy birdie.

Although, in truth, neither are among the best on the course. I think #1 is probably the weakest. I certainly didn't feel a letdown in quality after playing these two, but most of the best holes are on the back nine IMO. I like #7 at least as well as #8 or 9.

[Mark Saltzman]

Lets just say I am beginning to develop a theory, Mark, that you don't like holes that are drivable par fours only by long hitters! (Dormie #14 being the other in the trend).

Andy, that's half right.  As a not long hitter (a pea-shooter), few par-4s are driveable for me.  But, I'm a fairly low handicap... I can hit it reasonably straight and have a decent wedge game, so holes like 14 at Dormie and 7 at SS are boring for me.  It's 3W-LW every single time I play it... I have nothing to think about, no options.  Give me a challenge! Surely you can't design a hole just for the bombers and have it be boring for the rest of us.  Even if I can't drive the green, entice me to hit driver, or challenge a bunker, or think about laying back with iron... but on the holes at Dormie and SS, there's just nothing.

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