[Richard Choi]

I was just reading the comments on Cog Hill and found it interesting that many denigrate it for being long, hard slog with similar green approaches.

Seems to me, at least some of the criticism for Cog Hill can also be attributed to Bethpage Black. Both are long, hard slogs. BPB also feature many greens with bunkers guarding both sides. BPB probably poses even bigger challenges for drives.

But one is celebrated while the other is jeered. Why? What make Bethpage Black great that is distinct from Cog Hill?

I have not played both (only played BPB and loved it), but I would love to hear from those who have. Perhaps it will shed some light on why the Cog Hill renovations have failed to impress.

[Tom_Doak]

Some will blame it on East Coast bias.  There may be some of that.

However, Bethpage Black has great terrain and a stretch of great, memorable holes from the all-world #4 through #7.  Cog Hill has no hole as striking as any of those four.

[Richard Choi]

My understanding was that Cog Hill features some great rolling hills. What precluded the architects from creating memorable holes from such features? Is it repetition? Is it trying to make the holes too hard?

[Mike Sweeney]

Some will blame it on East Coast bias.  There may be some of that.

However, Bethpage Black has great terrain and a stretch of great, memorable holes from the all-world #4 through #7.  Cog Hill has no hole as striking as any of those four.

An argument could be made that it has the best terrain of ANY course on Long Island when you combine the terrain sitting on sand and then scale of the land. If it had better greens....

The East Coast Bias is covered by Shivas:

Does that sound like a guy who thinks lightly of Bethpage?  I didn't think so!

BPB is wonderful, and a super, super golf course. I might think top 40 or whatever, not 25, but we're in the same ballpark.  It's really, really cool.  But it's not as hard as Medinah.  That is literally ALL I've been saying.  Unless you equate greatness with difficulty, that shouldn't be too hard to understand or for you to be able to appreciate my position.  You keep talking about stroke averages in the Open, but you're ignoring the Open setup vs. everyday play.  You're ignoring the tighter fairways, higher rough, wider fairways, tougher pins, etc.  I didn't forget that you said the rough was a hair thinner.  That's a given.  What you also said, however, was:

BB has maintained itself in the same form since the upgrading took place. Sure, the rough has been thinned a "hair" but this notion that BB has a normal second tier appearance except when the Open comes to town is laughable.

"Same form"?  Thinned "a 'hair'"?  Laughable that BPB doesn't have a second tier appearance?  Matt, I took this to mean that you think the day to day conditions are damn close to Open conditions everyday.  That's malarkey. Everyone here knows it.  You know it, and frankly, I don't even know why you're arguing it, because it didn't add anything to any of the points you were trying to make in the first place!

BTW, when you hit it to Elvis territory on 15, what can you do?  Hit a wedge back into play -- and not hit a tree.  Why? Because there aren't any.  At Medinah the same shot has you in SHerwood Fricking Forest!  You are flat out lucky to get out in one.  The norm is often two.  Trust me.  I just did it -- and I thought I hit two VERY good punch outs just the way I wanted to!  They simply don't go anywhere after they land because they stop dead in their tracks in the rough because you have to hit a liner to get under the trees.  

BPB is a hard course.  Very hard. It's a great course.  Very great.  It's got great scale.  Great Routing.  Great bunkering.  Very good greens. Great options.  Great challenge.   Everything you want.  Medinah is harder, that's all.  

[PCCraig]

My understanding was that Cog Hill features some great rolling hills. What precluded the architects from creating memorable holes from such features? Is it repetition? Is it trying to make the holes too hard?

Richard,

Cog Hill does feature some rolling land...but the property that BPB sits on is much more severe, and interesting.

[Adam Clayman]

Tilly v. Lee  Nough said.

[David Cronheim]

Bethpage is the most overrated course in golf. It's a great course, don't misunderstand. But is it a top 25 course? No way. It's a Pete ECG example of how the usga let the ball get away from them and the consequences thereof. It's long, grueling and features some of the most boring, flat and uninteresting greens in major golf. (#15 being the only exception) By contrast, I just got back from yeamans hall and loved the challenge posed by the green complexes there.

I played cog hill a few years ago before the redesign and thought it was a good, but not great course for many of the reasons noted by tour players. It's very very narrow and if you miss the fairway just finding you ball can be a victory. It's borderline unplayable for mid handicappers and above.

[Sven Nilsen]

It's very very narrow and if you miss the fairway just finding you ball can be a victory. It's borderline unplayable for mid handicappers and above.

It may be borderline unplayable for all but the highest levels of golfers, but not for the reason you note.  The rough is normally not very high and unless your miss is in the 50 to 75 yard range off target, the boundaries are fair and the thickest areas of rough are limited. 

[David Cronheim]

It's very very narrow and if you miss the fairway just finding you ball can be a victory. It's borderline unplayable for mid handicappers and above.

It may be borderline unplayable for all but the highest levels of golfers, but not for the reason you note.  The rough is normally not very high and unless your miss is in the 50 to 75 yard range off target, the boundaries are fair and the thickest areas of rough are limited. 

I may be a bit biased since I played it when they were getting the rough up before the first BMW championship a few years ago, but at least when I was there the rough was brutal. Ill take your though.

[Terry Lavin]

BPB is on Long Island and was designed by a legend. It's great by most accounts. Cog is next to the Cal-Sag canal and was designed by a non legend. So BPB wins that comparison every day. But calling Cog Hill mediocre is pretty insulting IMHO.  It may not be a classic and it may not be one's cup of tea but it's far from mediocre.

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