Getting Trolleys/Push carts approved at a private US club

[Jud_T]

I'm usually just as happy to ride, and I can certainly understand the required caddie mentality, but getting charged to walk is the international signal to turn around, throw your clubs in the trunk and head for the hills IMO,

[BHoover]

I'm usually just as happy to ride, and I can certainly understand the required caddie mentality, but getting charged to walk is the international signal to turn around, throw your clubs in the trunk and head for the hills IMO,

Getting charged to walk an additional fee above and beyond my monthly dues would be the signal for me to head home and draft up my membership resignation letter.

[Thomas Dai]

Thanks guys. The phrase "elite rent-a-cop brigade" kind of appeals to my sense of humour - visions of Keystone-like cops chasing naughty trolley/push-cart using golfers across lush green fairways come to mind!
Atb

[John Kavanaugh]

I am a member of a private club where the dues are $500 per year but you pay a trail fee when you play, walk or ride.  We have 200 members and the club needs more than the $100,000 a year they get in dues to survive.  You guys who think you are walking for free are kidding yourselves.  You don't really want to walk for free, you want to walk for less.

[Brent Hutto]

So let's say you paid, say, five thousand bucks initiation fee and another five thousand a year in dues to belong to a golf club and were perfectly happy there. It costs $15 to play a round with a cart and $0 to play a round, walking.

Now let's say the Board crunches the numbers and sees that they are failing to meet the club's revenue requirements. So starting next year the cart fee goes up to $18 a round and it will cost $3 for rounds played walking. The alternative would have been to go up $300 per year on the dues.

Are you guys saying you'd just quit on the spot rather than start paying $3 per round? But you'd stay if the dues went up $300 per year? Would it matter if it were $1 per round instead? Do you feel like you're serving some meaningful moral purpose here or are you simply cutting off your nose to spite your face out of sheer cheapness?

John,

Exactly. I spent something like $4,900 at my club last year. Of that about $3,500 was "dues" and $300 was the per-round fees for playing golf walking at $3/round (the balance was food and beverage). If the club had not charged me that $300 my rounds would not have been "free" they would have simply cost me about 10% less than they did in fact cost. Call it the difference between $35 and $38 per round.

[BHoover]

At this point, I'd probably be willing to donate my annual golf budget to end this thread.  I blame myself for continuing to participate, but the lunacy of many of the posts is what keeps bringing me back.

Unless there's a damn good reason for the increased dues or fees (like golf course maintenance), I'd probably cut my losses and walk away.

[Jud_T]

Brent,

Paying dues and then having to effectively pay a greens fee is a psychologically undesirable hurdle IMO.  Yes,  give me the dues increase.

[Brent Hutto]

Brent,

Paying dues and then having to effectively pay a greens fee is a psychologically undesirable hurdle.  Yes,  give me the dues increase.

For me paying $300 a month even if I never set foot on the course is the psychologically undesirable hurdle. I wish they'd cut my dues to $100 a month and charge me $23 a round to walk. I'd break even in a normal month and save a fortune when it's too hot in August and too cold in February!

[mike_beene]

Agree that nothing is free but this gets to be a little like the federal budget: If you don't fight you get run over and those without knowledge get screwed to some degree. How many of our members know they get a  charge for the driving range every month( not sure how much but what
I lose paying for pushcarts I gain in range balls). I really don't want to know everything; then the fun of going to the club is nickeled and dimed out of me. If you get the best of me in a deal, at this point I would rather be left fat dumb and happy.Back to the subject, push carts carry divot sand and pushers(not drug related) fill the carriers divots for the most part. And if it takes an extra second the carriers fix my ball mark as I am walking up( or did when I actually hit greens from more than 20 yards).

[John Kavanaugh]

At this point, I'd probably be willing to donate my annual golf budget to end this thread.  I blame myself for continuing to participate, but the lunacy of many of the posts is what keeps bringing me back.

Unless there's a damn good reason for the increased dues or fees (like golf course maintenance), I'd probably cut my losses and walk away.

I understand that you are young but you will learn over time is that the replacements in your life rarely compare to the original.  All these bold statements of my way or the highway are childish blather.

[Jud_T]

If pure economic logic ruled the day, 1/3 of the clubs would shutter tomorrow.  Of course we'd also all drive used diesel VW's, marry wide-hipped midwestern farm girls and not be Cubs fans, but where's the fun in that?

[BHoover]

At this point, I'd probably be willing to donate my annual golf budget to end this thread.  I blame myself for continuing to participate, but the lunacy of many of the posts is what keeps bringing me back.

Unless there's a damn good reason for the increased dues or fees (like golf course maintenance), I'd probably cut my losses and walk away.

I understand that you are young but you will learn over time is that the replacements in your life rarely compare to the original.  All these bold statements of my way or the highway are childish blather.

Let me put it this way, my wife would make me walk away. It's tough enough getting her to agree to spend the money on a club membership. If I had to pay to walk, she would pull the plug on the membership.

[Brent Hutto]

Brian,

I'm half joking here but honest to god my first thought upon reading yours and Jud's emphatic comments was "Maybe these guys sold their wives on membership as a way to play 'free' golf". A bit gobsmacked to find out my humorous take has a kernel of truth...

[Tim Martin]

It is exceedingly difficult in the existing environment(post 2008) to keep dues/fees palatable to the core membership of private golf clubs. It only takes a few guys to feel like they are getting their pants pulled down to start a groundswell. I think trolleys/pull carts are coming en masse to many private clubs that would have never have considered them before because of the revenue they will bring. They will be club owned and they won't be free. The clubs with healthy caddie programs will resist but there is no doubt a new model is on the horizon.

[BHoover]

Brian,

I'm half joking here but honest to god my first thought upon reading yours and Jud's emphatic comments was "Maybe these guys sold their wives on membership as a way to play 'free' golf". A bit gobsmacked to find out my humorous take has a kernel of truth...

Not quite. My wife just has no interest in golf, thinks it's an expensive hobby and doesn't understand the appeal of joining a club. She would rather spend our money on travel. If I'm getting nickeled and dimed with extra fees, then it's one more strike against golf in her eyes. I don't mind paying my dues, and I never sold my wife on membership as somehow being free golf.

[Sven Nilsen]

It doesn't surprise me in the least that it is the GCA crowd that can't realize that they joined a club with a culture that doesn't fit them.

We are the fat guys in the little jackets, hoping the rest of the world will just change to meet our ideals.

[BCowan]

If pure economic logic ruled the day, 1/3 of the clubs would shutter tomorrow.  Of course we'd also all drive used diesel VW's, marry wide-hipped midwestern farm girls and not be Cubs fans, but where's the fun in that?

+1, that is a brilliant idea!  I have had two diesel VW's which i miss greatly

[Roger Wolfe]

As to wear and tear on the golf course.  Here in bermuda grass country the unrepaired divots created by walkers who do not carry divot bottles is similar to the cart traffic wear and tear.  Remember we are bermudagrass... not bent.  We keep our fairways firm and fast on NC clay.
 
   Up north here, we use divot mix too with bent mix in it.  Cart riders fill in divots, it is the least they can do for taking a buggy and costing more on maint.   Higher end clubs pay someone to fill in divots throughout the week.  Do you over seed your fairways in the fall/winter?  I am under the impression dormant bermuda can take only so much cart traffic.  I fill in our divots on the range, I am always filling in cartballers divots when they are done too, due to their laziness.  It's really a team effort. 

Assuming your club MUST have carts in order to compete... when cart fee revenue exceeds cart fleet expenses then the riders are paying MORE of their fair share than the walkers.  Sorry Sean... like I said before... it's basic math.  I think the word "subsidize" is causing all of this hysteria. 

It is all marketing, you keep cart fees high, so you can lower your monthly dues.  It is deceptive telling people what your monthly dues are, and the bill they get at the end of the month/year with all the x,y, and z mandatory fees.  As my friend who is an exceptional keeper replied, ''If we didn't have any walking rounds, the maint of the course would go up''.  You aren't subsidizing walkers, you are encouraging less carts

I give up BCowan.  This is like arguing religion.  You call cartballers "lazy" in the quote above which tells me your argument is based purely on emotion and not facts.  And Sean... I don't know about your club's budget but our's is no mystery.  We tell the members exactly where every penny goes and actually do a presentation that shows just how much has to come from dues (after estimating the variable revenue we get from member usage). 

I enjoy walking much, much more than riding but I refuse to let my subjective opinion interfere with what should be a purely objective discussion.

[BCowan]

As to wear and tear on the golf course.  Here in bermuda grass country the unrepaired divots created by walkers who do not carry divot bottles is similar to the cart traffic wear and tear.  Remember we are bermudagrass... not bent.  We keep our fairways firm and fast on NC clay.
 
   Up north here, we use divot mix too with bent mix in it.  Cart riders fill in divots, it is the least they can do for taking a buggy and costing more on maint.   Higher end clubs pay someone to fill in divots throughout the week.  Do you over seed your fairways in the fall/winter?  I am under the impression dormant bermuda can take only so much cart traffic.  I fill in our divots on the range, I am always filling in cartballers divots when they are done too, due to their laziness.  It's really a team effort. 

Assuming your club MUST have carts in order to compete... when cart fee revenue exceeds cart fleet expenses then the riders are paying MORE of their fair share than the walkers.  Sorry Sean... like I said before... it's basic math.  I think the word "subsidize" is causing all of this hysteria. 

It is all marketing, you keep cart fees high, so you can lower your monthly dues.  It is deceptive telling people what your monthly dues are, and the bill they get at the end of the month/year with all the x,y, and z mandatory fees.  As my friend who is an exceptional keeper replied, ''If we didn't have any walking rounds, the maint of the course would go up''.  You aren't subsidizing walkers, you are encouraging less carts

I give up BCowan.  This is like arguing religion.  You call cartballers "lazy" in the quote above which tells me your argument is based purely on emotion and not facts.  And Sean... I don't know about your club's budget but our's is no mystery.  We tell the members exactly where every penny goes and actually do a presentation that shows just how much has to come from dues (after estimating the variable revenue we get from member usage). 

I enjoy walking much, much more than riding but I refuse to let my subjective opinion interfere with what should be a purely objective discussion.

Roger,

    Observations aren't emotion. ''Here in bermuda grass country the unrepaired divots created by walkers who do not carry divot bottles ''.  Your statement is so off the mark.  Do you not value your walkers monthly dues?  Is it not enough that you have to think of them as free loaders off people who ride carts?  I don't want to speak for Sean but he seems to echo my thoughts as we don't want to hear walkers are cheap and taking advantage of their club. 

[Dan Herrmann]

This thread is the a sample of why we're losing the millenial generation (see related thread:  http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,59167.0.html)

[Josh Stevens]

I am a member of a private club where the dues are $500 per year but you pay a trail fee when you play, walk or ride.  We have 200 members and the club needs more than the $100,000 a year they get in dues to survive.  You guys who think you are walking for free are kidding yourselves.  You don't really want to walk for free, you want to walk for less.

I think you  just answered the question. 200 members? How in the hell is that economic?

Every decent metro club in australia has well north of 1200 members. Royal sydney has 6000 for heavens sake.

Actually allow people to join and the revenue issue vanishes

[Brent Hutto]

My own club has fewer than 300 full members (not counting 100 or so non-golf social members). In most smaller USA cities any plan that requires 1,000+ members for solvency...would produce a bankrupt club. It just ain't gonna happen in my town for sure. Even 500 would be crazy talk in the current climate.

In any case I'd rather join a club with 200 members and pay a few bucks per round than fight it out for tee times with 1,200 golfers. Yikes!

[Jason Thurman]

In the US, we don't have all the venomous snakes and spiders that Australia has to keep courses from being overrun with golfers. Any club that let thousands of members in would quickly grow too crowded, and no one would go there anymore.

[John Kavanaugh]

I am a member of a private club where the dues are $500 per year but you pay a trail fee when you play, walk or ride.  We have 200 members and the club needs more than the $100,000 a year they get in dues to survive.  You guys who think you are walking for free are kidding yourselves.  You don't really want to walk for free, you want to walk for less.

I think you  just answered the question. 200 members? How in the hell is that economic?

Every decent metro club in australia has well north of 1200 members. Royal sydney has 6000 for heavens sake.

Actually allow people to join and the revenue issue vanishes

Anyone in the world can join the club.  Our county where the club is located has 17,000 residents and we only have 200 golfers who can afford the $500 per year dues.  I just don't see the problem with user fees.  You use the club you pay a fee, it seems perfectly fair.

I'm sure you will be happy to know that cart riders pay more than walkers, walkers just don't get a free ride.

We are also lucky to supplement our revenue with slot machines which have just become legal in Illinois.  We also drink a ton of beer and have revenue producing tournaments and leagues.  

Our biggest drawback is our lack of cart revenue because most members own their own carts, including me.  We pay a $200 per year fee for storage and the right to use the cart, plus a trail fee for each time we play.

It is a great club where rounds, even mine, come in under 3 hours for 18 holes.  That is however a function of architecture and not culture.

Your anger is displaced.

[Brent Hutto]

...walkers just don't get a free ride.

So to speak.

We pay a $200 per year fee for storage and the right to use the cart, plus a trail fee for each time we play.

Now THAT is the deal of the century, so far. I pay $75/year just to store my spare SpeedCart at the clubhouse. It would be $150/year for push cart plus golf clubs. If our club offered to store riding carts I'd imagine we'd charge three or four times that much at least.