Getting Trolleys/Push carts approved at a private US club

[Dave Givnish]

Taking a conversation from last May forward, if your club allows the use of push carts or trollies, how did it get approved in the first place and what suggestions would you make to someone who is trying to get them in their club?

Desert Forest has had trollies for about 5 years now.  We bought 4 on trial because a few walkers on the Golf Committee kept saying "why not?" enough to the Board.  Since then, our fleet has expanded to about 24 and we do about 3,000 rounds per year with them.  The fleet is expanded by a net of about 6 per year to keep up with demand, and a cart lasts about 3 years on average.  We do charge a nominal fee. The biggest users are women and older men.  We have SunMountain trollies (2 and 3) and are now testing Rikshas.  The run-flat tires have really helped as cactus thorns are tough on pneumatic tires. 

I'm interested to see how others got around the politics or the stigma in situations where (a) there isn't a caddie program to protect in the first place, and (b) the course is walkable. 

Thanks


 

[Carl Johnson]

Let me throw this out.  I think if your objective is to be a golf club, then trolleys and push carts should not be an issue.   If members' objective is to be a status club, hanging on the golf hook, then you've got to do one of two things: (1) work to change the mindset of the members away from the status club and toward the golf club or (2), which is probably easier, try to convince them that trolleys and push carts don't detract from the status approach.  I'd point to the high status courses in Scotland, the "home of golf," like Royal Troon and Murfield and all the others, where the members use trollys, and moreover, distain buggies, i.e., golf carts, as unbefitting the real golfer.  See if you can get that through their heads.  In fact, maybe you could convince them that the highest status would be achieved if carts were prohibited, except when medically necessary [of, if the heat makes play without carts impossible in the summer -- I'm not sure what the summer climate is like at your course]. 

[Bill_McBride]

The hard part is that nobody really listens unless you're on the board or have an influential member on your side.   Typically the higher status the club, the more the members admire the status quo.   You may need to be quietly subversive until you can get enough members on your side to make an impact.   Maybe identify the frequent walkers and bring up the topic of wheels for walkers!

[Dave Givnish]

How about the stealth approach of bringing them in the off-season?  I'm not sure whether we did that at DF, but the summer temps got a few bags off shoulders and onto trolleys.

[Steve_ Shaffer]

Dave,

Are your push carts uniform in color and model a la Merion West?

Is there a rental charge?

Are times limited when they can used?

[Tiger_Bernhardt]

Bob H will know the details but MPCC has free trollies available for everyone. I love the policy for it promotes walking ie better golf experience and better for health. Olympic Club has it under review right now. I sent in my 2 cents voting for it and giving reasons. I frankly do not understand how a private club can have an anti trolly policy. I understand the arguments but the justifications are pitiful and lacking in merit. Champions opened up trolly usage and it took off like these Texas wild fires. My Saturday games their are 90% walkers now because of trollies.

[mike_beene]

in our case it took our more expensive neighbor going to them. we borrowed one of theirs to show that they looked and worked well.Then several people threatened to quit if we did not get them and we agreed to use only those the club would buy and that we would pay 10 dollars per round.They are very popular except during the summer.They seem to be accepted but the day they are gone so am I.

[David_Tepper]

Dave Givnish -

Congratulations on mission accomplished!

In addition to Monterey Peninisula CC, other well-known clubs in Northern California that now have a fleet of 3-wheel push carts available for their walking members & guests are the California Golf Club, Lake Merced and Sonoma.

DT

[Brett_Morrissy]

Here is Australia - pull trolleys are the norm. Carts generally for mostly resort type courses.
Most clubs allow members to use their own, or supply them for a small charge $5-$10.

I would go so far as to say that every single (99.9%)golfer in Australia has their own pull trolley/buggy either in their car, at their club(stored in a shed) or in their garage/shed at home.

it seems ludicrous that there are golf clubs that ban a golfer from using his own legs to get around a golf course, either carrying or pulling.

Dave, I would add the approach that is far less heavy traffic on your turf (assuming you aren't wall to wall cart paths), greener more environementally friendly, the next capital expenditure budget can be slashed as you wont need to upgrade the cart fleet, and reduce the repairs and maintenance on the cart fleet. You could offer to store members clubs, bag and trolley in part of the cart shed storage that will no longer be needed - even if you reduced by 30% cart usuage, the impact across the club and membership would be noticeable, and maybe even around the wasteline.
Rounds of golf would also reduce in time, as it is faster to walk than ride (assuming green to tee travel is not huge).

[Tony Ristola]

It's difficult to think of courses without trollies!

Usually preferring to pack, the new 3-wheel versions with a basket to hold stuff are great as you only have to push them along vs. lift and push and rarely have to dig into your bag. The battery operated trollies are also great stuff; like playing with a caddie.

Seems like the method at Dave's club was a good way to introduce them to a perhaps skeptical membership. A few of them so the members could look at the odd contraption and wonder what it was used for and then expanding as demand increased.

[Melvyn Morrow]

Golf Trolleys, Golf Carts and golf Buggies.

If you can’t beat them then join them is possibly a way forward, so to this end  my family and I are investing our money where our mouth and what’s more going to promote environmental friendly golf carts.

As some may understand this decision was not done on the spur of the moment but with great care and in depth planning. Our first task was to look at the available models but we had to discard them due to poor longevity and/or duration of the product. Fuel was another problem, what happens if the Cart runs to a stop, way out in the front or back 9 where no electrical recharging or diesel station to quickly refills to enable the players to continue. The choice in the end was easy, renewable energy, wood, peat, straw, hay etc., etc. anything to heat water. Giving the two items needed, combustible material and water to convert into steam, most of which many will be available on 90% of Golf courses.

Thus having resolved the fuel we thought of the hot environment and sought to have some form of protection from the sun or rain in the form of a roof. We have also decided to utilise a three wheeler and four wheeler models with standing or seating facilities subject to just how traditional the play wishes to remain. We have also introducing a Sporty model to improve round times for those just trying to squeeze in an after work 9 Hole game before the light fails.
      
Our Robust Model Range with a Warranty that could outlive you.







As previously mentioned we are forced down this line by the intransigence of clubs and players continuing to deface the quality game that Golf can be if only WALKED.  Therefore our selections from fuel through to 3- 4 wheelers is based given these players and courses that tolerate carts what they really deserve. That is apart from high purchase cost of our carts to the extremely expensive maintenance they generate both in course repair and cart maintenance.

“What goes around comes around” & When playing Golf please use environmentally energy, your Fuc@in& Legs.

This is a sponsored advert on behalf of the ‘Carts Must Go Campaign’ (CMGC) and fully endorsed by Melvyn  

Please note that Walking is an important part of the current Public Health Survival Directive and should not be ignored as could seriously damage your future health.

Melvyn

[Bill_McBride]

Melvyn, this thread is about trollies, which we call pull or push carts here in the colonies.   This type of conveyance facilitates walking. 

Carry on!

[John Kavanaugh]

I am afraid Melvyn may be coming down with a case of hoof and mouth disease.

[Dave Givnish]

Melvyn - good to steamroll right through the topic.    "Use your fu&@(ng legs" - that would look great on a hat, wouldn't it?  May have to talk with Rob Rigg about using that for The Walking Golfers Society tagline.

Steve - we have added them over time, most are black, but we do have them in several colors.  Uniform appearance of the trolleys isn't relevant to us, but I can see where it would be in some club cultures.  I'm glad to see that Merion has them on the West course.  Do any of the other old line Philly clubs have them?

Having them has helped us make the members' experience better and emphasizes how easy the course is to walk to prospective members.  Not too many courses in Scottsdale and Carefree are walkable, so this is a good distinction for us to make.  

  

[Michael J. Moss]

Quaker Ridge in Scarsdale, NY has a robust caddie program but allows push carts (trollies) when caddies are not available or, I believe, late in the afternoon. I would say most of the caddies in the shoulder seasons are back at high school or college so the push carts are a nice and healthier alternative to plopping one's butt in a golf cart.

As a past Green Chairman at Sunningdale CC, I am interested in this thread. During my tenure, I could not steer our golfing leadership past the "status" hurdle. They maintained that the push cart look is not in keeping with a club trying to appeal to the high end. I have always maintained that  successful clubs are comfortable in their own skin and do not care what others think. They tend to go their own way. It has been my observation that the decisions they make tend to be "old school."  

Round Hill Club in Greenwich, CT is a quiet, old school club. They have a terrific caddie program, and yet late in the afternoon, you will see members pushing (or pulling) their sticks. Pretty cool.

[JMEvensky]

Michael Moss,isn't QR running the risk of hurting their caddie program?If Member A can use a pull cart some of the time,he'll eventually want to use it more frequently.Maybe he doesn't want to pay the caddie fee.After a while,the caddie program might be harder to justify.

It would seem to be a very difficult,if not impossible,balance between pull carts and maintaining a caddie program.

[Dub_ONeill]

In GB&I it seems like it is not necessarily a choice between a caddy or a trolley, but that you may get a caddy with a trolley.  Does that happen anywhere in the U.S.?  I have seen people who have a caddy drive a cart while they walk which always seems weird to me, but maybe they are inspired by the senior tour.

[Dave Givnish]

Brett - One of our members who grew up in Melbourne throws his staff bag on a trolley and walks.  Says that it makes him feel like he is at home.  We may have to get him some vegemite at the turn.

It seems that the concern about status is misplaced if this many top-tier U.S. clubs have them. 

[Bill_McBride]

I recently played at the Valley Club and La Cumbre, the top privates in Santa Barbara.  Both clubs loaned us Sun Mountain speed carts, gratis.

[Bruce Katona]

I recall playing The Valley Club in Hailey,ID several times.  The club and its members (not sure what the cost to the membership was/round) had the motorized hand carts for use to promote a more walking membership.  The motorized hand carts were well used and received by the membership.

[Melvyn Morrow]

Dave

My apologies, I was not trying to walk through your thread, far from it, as trolleys or push carts are a norm here in GB. Be it week-ends or week days, you see the faithful setting  out, pushing their clubs before them. It’s a great alternative to using a Caddie and fits the Scottish pocket much better (Caddies are a wee bit expensive for us poor minority up in the North of the British Isles, come to think of it, its expensive period for a Scotsman even when its free)

The main point really is that these little trollies still allow the golfer to walk as one ages or find carrying a bag difficult. The other option is just to carry a 3 & 9 Iron with a putter (normal one, of course). It’s also better than listening to the sound of the new style drivers, they should be banned just for the pathetic noise they make when contacting the ball, like a Virgin breaking wind (so I have been told as we seem short of Virgins in GB these days).

All round, the push carts are by far the best if one is not going to carry ones clubs for whatever reason. You are still walking and do not have to keep telling the Caddie not to interfere or make suggestions as how to play the next shot. Push carts or better still two or three wheelers called  ‘Silent Caddies’.

Good luck with the Virgin, no, sorry meant, push carts

Melvyn

PS  Bill
I fear for you these days, you seem to be losing your British sense of humour – life is just too serious to always be serious, for a second there when I read Dave’s thread I was wonder if he was suggesting putting handles on carts and pushing them around the course, (now that would make you fit or kill you quick; that would be one quick way of getting the carts banned fitting push handles, don’t you just love it)
 

[Bill_McBride]

PS  Bill
I fear for you these days, you seem to be losing your British sense of humour – life is just too serious to always be serious, for a second there when I read Dave’s thread I was wonder if he was suggesting putting handles on carts and pushing them around the course, (now that would make you fit or kill you quick; that would be one quick way of getting the carts banned fitting push handles, don’t you just love it)
 

I guess I have to go back to using smilies.   

[Dave Givnish]

Melvyn

My next project is to allow dogs on the course during play.  Same issues.  Common to see in the UK, hen's teeth here.  Of course, we have rattlers and bobcats that make things a bit more interesting.

Cheers

[Wayne Wiggins, Jr.]

So, in addition to ubiquity in the UK and Australia, we see the embrace of these pro-walking apparatuses at some of America’s top-flight clubs:

Desert Forest
The Valley Club of Montecito
La Cumbre
Merion (West course)
Quaker Ridge
Monterey Peninsula
Sonoma CC
California GC of SF
Lake Merced
Round Hill Club
Champions

Am I missing any?  How about Continental Europe… the Dutch, Spanish, and French courses like Royal Hague and Mornfontaine?  What's their tradition... I'd imagine walking is the norm?

WW

[mike_malone]

 Sunnybrook had them.