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Dave Givnish

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Re: Getting Trolleys/Push carts approved at a private US club
« Reply #75 on: September 20, 2011, 07:02:00 PM »
Roger - as long as we're not on a plane, hijack away!

We're looking at whether to (a) wrap unlimited cart use in the dues, (b) go to a cost-plus pricing model for carts, (c) allow members to buy blocks of cart rounds at a 20% or 25% discount, or (d) keep them where they are because our fee is already 20% lower than other clubs in our area.

Cart revenue is a profit center.  We own the cart revenue so it's really just disguised dues that punish regular players.  I think that we'll end up trying option C this year to see how it works.

About 20% to 25% of our rounds are walkers carrying their own bags, 5% to 10% are using trollies or 4-bag attachments on a cart, and the remainder are riding.


Roger Wolfe

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Re: Getting Trolleys/Push carts approved at a private US club
« Reply #76 on: September 21, 2011, 04:49:48 PM »
Roger - as long as we're not on a plane, hijack away!

We're looking at whether to (a) wrap unlimited cart use in the dues, (b) go to a cost-plus pricing model for carts, (c) allow members to buy blocks of cart rounds at a 20% or 25% discount, or (d) keep them where they are because our fee is already 20% lower than other clubs in our area.

Cart revenue is a profit center.  We own the cart revenue so it's really just disguised dues that punish regular players.  I think that we'll end up trying option C this year to see how it works.

About 20% to 25% of our rounds are walkers carrying their own bags, 5% to 10% are using trollies or 4-bag attachments on a cart, and the remainder are riding.



Hey Dave,

There really isn’t a “correct” answer to your question.  Every member I informally poll about the “free cart fee” solution loves it.  But remember, every member I poll is ON CLUB PREMISES.  As we all know, 25% or more of every club’s membership uses the facility one a month at most.  He or she is not going to like a higher monthly fee and prefers to pay as they go.  Especially if they are avid walkers.

I wrote these comments on a thread back in January of 2010.  While the “all in” price is a wonderful thing… it also has the capability of dooming your club if something goes wrong (like the 2008 recession).
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I couldn't agree with you more Kevin.  As a GM/controller my goal is to make each year as predictable as possible and the less I have to depend on cart revenue and guest fees the greater chance I have of getting my net income to zero.  With that in mind, there is nothing that hurts a club more than finding ways to upcharge the members who use the facilities the most.  Food service charges... high cart fees... high guest fees... range fees.  Their should be a "cost of being a member" and the more static that is... the better.

Hidden charges are another pet peeve.  Our dues are all inclusive except for a small food minimum.  We have a club near us that advertises their dues as $465.  Add a $50 capital fee, $30 dining service fee, $200 quarterly food minimum and a $300 per year range fee and your monthly "cash out of pocket" just became $640.. 37% higher than the "published dues."  Why a club would choose to penalize its most supportive members is beyond me.

An important point, however, is to guage just how many members of your club are "light users."  If 25% of your membership averages 12 rounds per year... perhaps some level of "pay as you go" is appropriate so you don't drive those people out with a dues structure that includes the traditional "pay as you go" charges.  If the regular membership lost the subsidizing dues revenue of light users who leave the club... the resulting dues structure might be to high... thus beginning the "death spiral" mentioned by Mr. Mucci in an earlier post.

As I have often quoted Winston Churchill to various owners and boards... "...[finding the right mix] is a riddle wrapped in a mystery inside an enigma."
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And the all important “death spiral” example…
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I apologize if this remedial to some… but I have used it several times to illustrate the “death spiral” scenario.

This is dumbed down (no F&B)…

Club needs $3,000,000 to break even.  $350,000 come from “usage fees:”
Cart fees are $220,000
Range fees generate $100,000
Spousal/dependent fees generate $30,000
500 members pay $2,650,000 in dues so $5,300 per year… $442 per month.
Everyone is pretty happy.

A rogue GM takes over and convinces the board to roll the cart fees and range fees into the dues and make all memberships “family” thus eliminating spousal and dependent fees.  The board and the annual meeting attendees... usually heavy users of the club... carry the GM out of the annual meeting on their shoulders and the board gives him a $50,000 bonus.

500 members now pay $3,000,000 so $6,000 per year… $500 per month.  All is well.

In September of 2008, Lehman Brothers tanks and begins the great depression of 08-09.
Suddenly, out of the 500 members, 50 members whose families do not play, who do not
subscribe to the range and only play 12 times per year (definition of a light user) decide
that the dues increase of $58 is just too much so they resign from the club.

Now 450 members have to pay $3,000,000 so $6,667 per year… $556 per month.
This additional $56 (on top of the original $58) forces 50 MORE to resign.

Now 400 members have to pay $3,000,000 so $7,500 per year… $625 per month.

You are only losing members who do not play very much so your volume, wear and tear and expenses remain the same.  If anything, you would have to recover MORE revenue through the dues since you are losing some F&B and guest revenue as well.

Behold the “Death Spiral”

Is it better to continue to tax the regular user with cart fees and range fees in order to protect the dues structure and hopefully keep the light users we depend on soooo much from leaving the club?   There are two answers that depend on the economic environment the club is currently in…

1. In a boom economy when the club has a waiting list and you can replace the 50 who leave when the dues hit $500 per month… it sounds like a great plan, doesn’t it?

2. In a bad economy when the club has no waiting list and cannot replace the 50 who leave… should you take every possible step to keep your dues as low as possible?

As far as I know, noone has come up with the definite "formula for success."

BCowan

Re: Getting Trolleys/Push carts approved at a private US club
« Reply #77 on: February 16, 2014, 05:00:59 PM »
this is a great thread.  Was wondering on any private US courses allowing them in the last 2-3 years? 

David_Tepper

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Re: Getting Trolleys/Push carts approved at a private US club
« Reply #78 on: February 16, 2014, 05:34:39 PM »
BCowan -

Last year the Olympic Club approved usage of 3-wheel push carts on its Ocean Course.

Within the last 3-4 years, Lake Merced CC, the California GC, the Sonoma GC and the Monterey Peninsula CC have all approved usage of 3-wheel push carts.

DT

BCowan

Re: Getting Trolleys/Push carts approved at a private US club
« Reply #79 on: February 16, 2014, 06:28:52 PM »
 :)

Dan Herrmann

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Re: Getting Trolleys/Push carts approved at a private US club
« Reply #80 on: February 16, 2014, 07:05:31 PM »
We've been friends of push carts since we opened.  We even "rent" them for a couple of bucks to guests if they'd like one.  And members can store their push cart at the club for a nominal fee.

I don't understand why every club doesn't allow them.  They're MUCH better for the golf course.

Greg Gilson

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Re: Getting Trolleys/Push carts approved at a private US club
« Reply #81 on: February 16, 2014, 07:14:05 PM »
The guys at Wilshire CC are great contacts on this .....Pete Kelly (Member) & Randy St John (GM) are both on the DG.

BCowan

Re: Getting Trolleys/Push carts approved at a private US club
« Reply #82 on: February 16, 2014, 07:33:47 PM »
Asheville CC

BHoover

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Re: Getting Trolleys/Push carts approved at a private US club
« Reply #83 on: February 16, 2014, 08:02:36 PM »
I have to admit that I'm not a pushcart/trolley fan myself. It's not that I oppose them; in fact, I agree that courses should allow them in the interest of promoting walking. I totally see why folks might want to use one if they prefer to walk but don't want to carry or pay for a caddy. I also don't understand the stigma against them here in the USA. So if someone wants to use one, I say go for it. But I'm not about to use one myself. I'd prefer to carry anyday over using a trolley. If I were to use one, I'd be inclined to use one of the electric trolleys that follows you around.

But my question is, if you do use a trolley, why push around a staff bag like the guy in Ben's picture from Asheville? Why not push around a walking bag?
« Last Edit: February 16, 2014, 08:06:18 PM by Brian Hoover »

BCowan

Re: Getting Trolleys/Push carts approved at a private US club
« Reply #84 on: February 16, 2014, 08:07:56 PM »
Brian

    those are carTek trolleys, they have lithium batteries and self propelled.  I Carry myself, but when I am 70 i might switch to one of these.  They have cooler models than these.  You can't even hear them, my mom has one. 

BHoover

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Re: Getting Trolleys/Push carts approved at a private US club
« Reply #85 on: February 16, 2014, 08:10:23 PM »
I would push myself when I get older. Also, I intend to use the rickshaws at Bandon when I eventually go because I'd rather not haul around rain gear and other stuff on my back.

My club allows them on days that carts are a no go. But the club also allows unlimited walking and carrying. So I say let them push if they want. Or, if revenue is a concern, why would a club not buy some pushcarts and rent them to members?
« Last Edit: February 16, 2014, 08:12:38 PM by Brian Hoover »

BCowan

Re: Getting Trolleys/Push carts approved at a private US club
« Reply #86 on: February 16, 2014, 08:19:44 PM »


   Me too, i plan on carrying till I die, but if push comes to shove.  The one above breaks down into briefcase size and is light (model my mom has).  Don't know what a rickshaws is.  Can't afford Bandon either, but the photos look great.  The course I grew up at and the one i play now at you can bring your trolley or they rent them out.  Only one private club in Toledo allows trolleys and 4 clubs or most clubs do allow in Ann Arbor.

BHoover

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Getting Trolleys/Push carts approved at a private US club
« Reply #87 on: February 16, 2014, 08:37:32 PM »
I think Bandon offers something like this:

Brett Wiesley

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Re: Getting Trolleys/Push carts approved at a private US club
« Reply #88 on: February 16, 2014, 11:56:21 PM »
My club has the cart fee included. Our dues went up $40/mo. No big deal I guess, but to be fair I think they should also now provide motorized walking carts, push carts, and also adaptable 4 bag carts.  At the very least store the members push carts.  Forcing carts really promotes obesity!!

Matt Day

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Getting Trolleys/Push carts approved at a private US club
« Reply #89 on: February 17, 2014, 12:32:06 AM »
I have to admit that I'm not a pushcart/trolley fan myself. It's not that I oppose them; in fact, I agree that courses should allow them in the interest of promoting walking. I totally see why folks might want to use one if they prefer to walk but don't want to carry or pay for a caddy. I also don't understand the stigma against them here in the USA. So if someone wants to use one, I say go for it. But I'm not about to use one myself. I'd prefer to carry anyday over using a trolley. If I were to use one, I'd be inclined to use one of the electric trolleys that follows you around.

But my question is, if you do use a trolley, why push around a staff bag like the guy in Ben's picture from Asheville? Why not push around a walking bag?
Brian
I use a titleist stand bag in summer when using a trolley and then switch to a larger bag in winter as required to cater for wet weather gear, spare towel etc, that maybe a reason for larger bags in the photo?

Sean_A

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Re: Getting Trolleys/Push carts approved at a private US club
« Reply #90 on: February 17, 2014, 06:30:37 AM »
But my question is, if you do use a trolley, why push around a staff bag like the guy in Ben's picture from Asheville? Why not push around a walking bag?

I love it when guys drive Cadillacs on the course.  The bags are so big I can often dump my rain gear in them.  Though, truth be told, I have always wanted to tip out all the stuff the big bag boys carry on the trolley.  I bet most guys have 5 extra pounds in the bag they never use or don't realize is in there.  Imagine the old sandwiches, manky choc bars and bottles of dubious coloured water that are buried in the bowels of these bags. Truth be told ii, guys carry big trolley bags because they can.

Ciao
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Dan Herrmann

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Re: Getting Trolleys/Push carts approved at a private US club
« Reply #91 on: February 17, 2014, 08:02:09 AM »
Cool thing about Bandon is that you can take the push cart right across the greens. 

BCowan

Re: Getting Trolleys/Push carts approved at a private US club
« Reply #92 on: February 17, 2014, 09:33:44 AM »
My club has the cart fee included. Our dues went up $40/mo. No big deal I guess, but to be fair I think they should also now provide motorized walking carts, push carts, and also adaptable 4 bag carts.  At the very least store the members push carts.  Forcing carts really promotes obesity!!

   I think that is awful, forced coercion.  If a members wants any type of cart they pay for it, if they want a season pass cart buy it at the beginning of the year.  This raising dues $40 a month is BS.  Collective line of thinking.  They talked a while back about having ''trail fees'' at the club i grew up at, I guess they wanted to see 100 people quit asap.  The unintended consequences of focusing on revenue and not expenses can often lead to less revenue. A member should be allowed to bring his own trolley. 

Dan
 
  That is cool, just like in OZ i hear!

Thomas Dai

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Re: Getting Trolleys/Push carts approved at a private US club
« Reply #93 on: February 17, 2014, 10:24:07 AM »
Getting Trolleys/Push carts approved at a private US club - in the UK if you ask for permission or approval to do something some bloody committee will almost undoubtedly find a reason to say 'no'. Now I'm not a particular fan of Nike equipment but their "Just do it" advert would be an approach worth following, especially these days when clubs want members, or rather, want members money.
atb

BCowan

Re: Getting Trolleys/Push carts approved at a private US club
« Reply #94 on: February 17, 2014, 12:52:21 PM »
Getting Trolleys/Push carts approved at a private US club - in the UK if you ask for permission or approval to do something some bloody committee will almost undoubtedly find a reason to say 'no'. Now I'm not a particular fan of Nike equipment but their "Just do it" advert would be an approach worth following, especially these days when clubs want members, or rather, want members money.
atb

   Thomas i think you are right for the most part.  With so many Americans not knowing how golf is played in it's proper form across the pond, Civil disobedience might be the only alternative.  I think it should be a last resort.  An example would be the private club i grew up at, the few woman members that played on Sat morning couldn't go get service in C-house at 10am and weren't allowed in the Men's back Bar, so they just starting going in and getting snacks and drinks at the turn.  I much prefer this method than getting case law lawyers and gov't involved.  On the other hand the course allows 5 somes now and I have refused for 8 years to play the club i grew up at for that reason alone.

Tim Martin

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Re: Getting Trolleys/Push carts approved at a private US club
« Reply #95 on: February 17, 2014, 08:35:43 PM »
Getting Trolleys/Push carts approved at a private US club - in the UK if you ask for permission or approval to do something some bloody committee will almost undoubtedly find a reason to say 'no'. Now I'm not a particular fan of Nike equipment but their "Just do it" advert would be an approach worth following, especially these days when clubs want members, or rather, want members money.
atb

   On the other hand the course allows 5 somes now and I have refused for 8 years to play the club i grew up at for that reason alone.

You showed them huh? ::)

Jason Thurman

  • Karma: +1/-0
Re: Getting Trolleys/Push carts approved at a private US club
« Reply #96 on: February 17, 2014, 08:54:46 PM »


"There will always be haters. That’s just the way it is. Hating dudes marry hating women and have hating ass kids." - Evan Turner

Some of y'all have never been called out in bold green font and it really shows.

BCowan

Re: Getting Trolleys/Push carts approved at a private US club
« Reply #97 on: February 17, 2014, 09:04:32 PM »

[/quote]

I think you know what I am implying wise guy!  Your 2nd photo is my reaction too.  You waited all day to chime in?

Jason Thurman

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Re: Getting Trolleys/Push carts approved at a private US club
« Reply #98 on: February 17, 2014, 09:36:00 PM »
Not all of us are small business owners who set our own schedules Ben. I had to work. I also couldn't quite get through when I first clicked on it. Reading these stories of tyranny and oppression about selfish course operations that allow fivesomes and forcibly coerce players to ride in carts is really difficult and emotional. The Thomas Aquinas meme was just a stupid joke. I'm sure he's smiling down on you. Are you Catholic? I don't practice the faith, but being born Catholic is like being born Southern - it's for life, no matter where you move. I have a late uncle who was a priest and a great aunt who's a nun, and I'm a big fan of the work of Aquinas and All Saints. "Never Ever" was a great song.

Have you thought about the $40 monthly cart charge to all members as a possible way to grow walking golf? In my experience, John Kavanaugh is right - walkers are cheap and often perceived thusly by riders. I say that as an avid walker myself who is also deplorably cheap. Like John, I have Irish blood. If a club charges all members a monthly fee for unlimited cart use, and many members continue to walk, doesn't that legitimize walking as a way to enjoy the game instead of just a way to save a few bucks? It also removes the stigma that walkers are freeloaders who don't pay their full share to the club and whose memberships are subsidized by more free-spending members.
"There will always be haters. That’s just the way it is. Hating dudes marry hating women and have hating ass kids." - Evan Turner

Some of y'all have never been called out in bold green font and it really shows.

BCowan

Re: Getting Trolleys/Push carts approved at a private US club
« Reply #99 on: February 17, 2014, 10:08:37 PM »
Not all of us are small business owners who set our own schedules Ben. I had to work. I also couldn't quite get through when I first clicked on it. Reading these stories of tyranny and oppression about selfish course operations that allow fivesomes and forcibly coerce players to ride in carts is really difficult and emotional.Clubs that are set up a limited play allow 5+ somes for they are limited play clubs and totally different than traditional golf clubs and CC's.  Don't get emotion Jason, that doesn't help anyone!  Maybe if you could have a different outlook you could see a differently.

 The Thomas Aquinas meme was just a stupid joke. I'm sure he's smiling down on you. Are you Catholic? Nope
I don't practice the faith, but being born Catholic is like being born Southern - it's for life, no matter where you move.Not surprised you but down southerns.
I have a late uncle who was a priest and a great aunt who's a nun, and I'm a big fan of the work of Aquinas and All Saints. "Never Ever" was a great song.  Have you thought about the $40 monthly cart charge to all members as a possible way to grow walking golf?Yeah, I have seen clubs go to that and go out of business.  Does making people do this because ''some'' people think it is right, make it right? In my experience, John Kavanaugh is right - walkers are cheap and often perceived thusly by riders.You taking Kava side is funny.  Nope i don't perceive walkers as cheap and my definition of cheap is different then yoursI say that as an avid walker myself who is also deplorably cheap.Again your and my definition of cheap is different.  Maybe we could use the term Val.Like John, I have Irish blood. If a club charges all members a monthly fee for unlimited cart use, and many members continue to walk, doesn't that legitimize walking as a way to enjoy the game instead of just a way to save a few bucks? Depending on the course whether we are talking about a CC or a Golf Club.  Also there are many depending on the region that wouldn't put up for that nonsense even ones with real deep pockets
It also removes the stigma that walkers are freeloaders who don't pay their full share to the club and whose memberships are subsidized by more free-spending members.Again, like John and other CC's that can't figure it out, it isn't revenue that is the only issue, it is spending.  Did it occur to you that $40 could be the straw that breaks the camels back and also prevents people from joining a private club?  John says that most walkers jump on a cart up a hill, does that happen time to time, yes.  You use words like ''fair share'', not surprised you used that!  I am a free spending member, and each member values certain things more than others.  I spend money on expensive craft beer and eat out a lot!  John and you look at this like typical CC golfers do, I laugh when he gets upset at maint costs!  If a club is having a hard time breaking even, do you think making private golf affordable is more important than how much a new member spends?  Back in the day many head pros gave lessons morning till night and then managed the grill!  Do you realize there are certain clubs that promote walking and actually have to be 60+ years old to take a cart?  The club i grew up with had a food min. for two years, they got rid of it people still eat there.  They are in the best financial state than all the other clubs in the area.  The club i play at now has a waiting list.  So I think your ''subsidizing'' stigma is what is wrong with Golf in the US.  ''It costs 10 times more to play golf in the US and most courses are in the red, have we not learned anything from where the game originated''-Perry Maxwell shortened quote.  Wow the foresight!

« Last Edit: February 17, 2014, 10:15:45 PM by BCowan »

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