Sand Hills vs Dismal River S.A.P.D. #9 pg. 5

[Charlie Goerges]

Dismal River 5:




And a badly out of focus view from the right side:

[John Kavanaugh]

The PR effort is clearly demonstrated here with the many passionate threads about Dismal that have simply erupted on the site the past few months.  I'd be shocked if the mass of Golfweek raters don't simply erupt with ratings that vault the club into the top 30 modern.  I know how it works.  And I'm not objecting, just observing!

Terry,

I think we both know how it works.  I don't see any of this as a PR effort.  I mean really, if it were do you think I would be the one leading it?  I know some people think Chris posts too often about a course he owns.  Those people need to take a trip out to Dismal and take a look around.  It is a great place to visit but appears a lonely place to live everyday of the week.  Give the guy a break, he is just chatting it up like the rest of us.

The most fun, which I know is being had by more than me, is reading between the lines of posts about courses who are competing for the traveling golfers time.  This is not a competition where the winner will be declared by the magazines.  That was so 80's.  It is in the hands of the illuminati now.  How else could we have gotten Doak?

We are the Dorg. Lower your ropes and surrender your fairways. We will add your biological and technological distinctiveness to our own. Your culture will adapt to service us. Resistance is futile.
 

[Michael George]

John:

"I know some people think Chris posts too often about a course he owns."

If anyone actually believes that, it would be the craziest position ever on this string (and that is saying something - including some of my crazy ones).  Do people likewise complain that any of the course architects post too often about courses that they design??  How about equity members of courses that post too often about the course that they own? 

It is certainly better than the alternative - which is people posting about topics which they don't know anything about.

There are hundreds of great golf courses in this country.  Input from those that are close to these courses is what makes this string so enjoyable.  I greatly appreciate the input from all of these people. 

I know that you agree with me.  That is why I mention it.  I certainly hope that Chris and others continue to post as their contributions are greatly appreciated.

 

[John Kavanaugh]

Yes I do enjoy Chris posting on this site.  I have already said to much.  The Dismal Owners and Renaissance Golf (Dorg) may be watching.

I am looking forward to discussing 7 and 8 tomorrow.

[Terry Lavin]

I'm not objecting to the effort to pump up Dismal River.  I think it's an appropriate use of the website.  DR is located in an area that is absolutely perfect for golf.  It hired my favorite architect to build a second course.  That's all good.  Chris Johnston sounds like the kind of guy that I would like to know and he definitely seems like the kind of guy I'd like to own/run/manage/cheerlead a golf course that I'm a member of.  I'm not "anti" any of that, seriously.  I was just tweaking the comparison between the original course and Sand Hills, that's it.  No biggie.  I'll get out there next summer and who know, I just might bring my checkbook.

[Chris Johnston]

Gosh, I'm truly sorry if anyone is offended by my participating here.  I think I have started one thread, and only contribute with something meaningful or factual to share, mostly about Dismal River and/or Sand Hills and/or the region.  I share it with like minded individuals and anyone may feel free to disagree.  For me, it isn't PR, or pumping up, its information and a shared passion for good golf...all good golf, and things good about golf.  I get my reward when members and guests leave 201 very happy, and I'm happy with 201 as 201.  There don't seem to be as many naysayers these days and that is due to outstanding people and a lot of effort.  I didn't start this thread but, from experience, do have something to add. 

Here is a fun piece that should be meaningful for all here.  Our Super, Jagger Mandrell, has a 7 man crew today.  & Total!  Jagger oversees the Nicklaus course and the grow in of six new greens and surrounds.  In his spare time, he also cooks every meal for his crew + Don and His Crew + Tom and his crew, lunch and dinner, every day, 7 days a week.  We have several key guys like that here, one even has an ugly dog names Annie!  Kyle and the crew at Sand Hills are the same.  If you have a crew like this at your club, you are lucky.  I certainly am.  Next time you visit you club, drop off a case, or a bottle of Kentucky Deluxe, at maintenance and tell them thanks.  Busch Light here, please.

And...this is so hard...<fidgeting>...<fidgeting even more>...I used a belly putter my last 3 rounds.  There, now its finally out there.

Let the stoning begin...

[Terry Lavin]

You have stoning at the club too?  I thought it was just hard liquor!

[Eric Smith]

I used a belly putter my last 3 rounds.  There, now its finally out there.

Let the stoning begin...

Chris,

Now there you go again...end the ban on Willie, Mr. Belly Putter!

"Dismal River don't run dry,
you're all I've got take care of me..."

As for the heart of your post, I don't pretend to know what others on here think, but the idea that your participation here is offensive, well that's news to me.  Just please, don't get cross ways with Scott Warren. (That's a joke!!)

You're in good company here, Chris. Thank you for participating and for all you've done and continue to do.

Also...

Terry,

Thank you for your response earlier. I appreciate your reasonable take on all things golf. You'd do well to go out next summer and have a look. Worse thing you could do is have a good time!

[Dan Kelly]

Gosh, I'm truly sorry if anyone is offended by my participating here.

The hell with 'em! Speak your piece!

Now, as to that Busch Light....

[Sean Leary]

The PR effort is clearly demonstrated here with the many passionate threads about Dismal that have simply erupted on the site the past few months.  I'd be shocked if the mass of Golfweek raters don't simply erupt with ratings that vault the club into the top 30 modern.  I know how it works.  And I'm not objecting, just observing!

Terry,

I think we both know how it works.  I don't see any of this as a PR effort.  I mean really, if it were do you think I would be the one leading it?  I know some people think Chris posts too often about a course he owns.  Those people need to take a trip out to Dismal and take a look around.  It is a great place to visit but appears a lonely place to live everyday of the week.  Give the guy a break, he is just chatting it up like the rest of us.

The most fun, which I know is being had by more than me, is reading between the lines of posts about courses who are competing for the traveling golfers time.  This is not a competition where the winner will be declared by the magazines.  That was so 80's.  It is in the hands of the illuminati now.  How else could we have gotten Doak?

We are the Dorg. Lower your ropes and surrender your fairways. We will add your biological and technological distinctiveness to our own. Your culture will adapt to service us. Resistance is futile.
 

JK,

If you were not a member, would you honestly not be having an absolute field day with everything Dismal? I certainly understand why being a member changes everything, but this is so up the old JakaB's alley its not even funny. No way you could resist.

[Mike Hogan]

Here is another shot of Dismal #5.


Shot of green.

[John Kavanaugh]

The PR effort is clearly demonstrated here with the many passionate threads about Dismal that have simply erupted on the site the past few months.  I'd be shocked if the mass of Golfweek raters don't simply erupt with ratings that vault the club into the top 30 modern.  I know how it works.  And I'm not objecting, just observing!

Terry,

I think we both know how it works.  I don't see any of this as a PR effort.  I mean really, if it were do you think I would be the one leading it?  I know some people think Chris posts too often about a course he owns.  Those people need to take a trip out to Dismal and take a look around.  It is a great place to visit but appears a lonely place to live everyday of the week.  Give the guy a break, he is just chatting it up like the rest of us.

The most fun, which I know is being had by more than me, is reading between the lines of posts about courses who are competing for the traveling golfers time.  This is not a competition where the winner will be declared by the magazines.  That was so 80's.  It is in the hands of the illuminati now.  How else could we have gotten Doak?

We are the Dorg. Lower your ropes and surrender your fairways. We will add your biological and technological distinctiveness to our own. Your culture will adapt to service us. Resistance is futile.
 

JK,

If you were not a member, would you honestly not be having an absolute field day with everything Dismal? I certainly understand why being a member changes everything, but this is so up the old JakaB's alley its not even funny. No way you could resist.

Sean,

Even in my darkest days I don't think I ever came out against someone who loved their course. As a Fazio member yourself you may recall I was a hater hater. Do yourself a favor and do an advanced search using my name and Dismal. I have been a Dismal supporter from long before I ever saw the course or was a member. I will admit that the turnaround has exceeded my most optimistic expectations. The best news is that we have just gotten started.

[Sean Leary]

The PR effort is clearly demonstrated here with the many passionate threads about Dismal that have simply erupted on the site the past few months.  I'd be shocked if the mass of Golfweek raters don't simply erupt with ratings that vault the club into the top 30 modern.  I know how it works.  And I'm not objecting, just observing!

Terry,

I think we both know how it works.  I don't see any of this as a PR effort.  I mean really, if it were do you think I would be the one leading it?  I know some people think Chris posts too often about a course he owns.  Those people need to take a trip out to Dismal and take a look around.  It is a great place to visit but appears a lonely place to live everyday of the week.  Give the guy a break, he is just chatting it up like the rest of us.

The most fun, which I know is being had by more than me, is reading between the lines of posts about courses who are competing for the traveling golfers time.  This is not a competition where the winner will be declared by the magazines.  That was so 80's.  It is in the hands of the illuminati now.  How else could we have gotten Doak?

We are the Dorg. Lower your ropes and surrender your fairways. We will add your biological and technological distinctiveness to our own. Your culture will adapt to service us. Resistance is futile.
 

JK,

If you were not a member, would you honestly not be having an absolute field day with everything Dismal? I certainly understand why being a member changes everything, but this is so up the old JakaB's alley its not even funny. No way you could resist.

Sean,

Even in my darkest days I don't think I ever came out against someone who loved their course. As a Fazio member yourself you may recall I was a hater hater. Do yourself a favor and do an advanced search using my name and Dismal. I have been a Dismal supporter from long before I ever saw the course or was a member. I will admit that the turnaround has exceeded my most optimistic expectations. The best news is that we have just gotten started.

So as a hater hater, you supported because it was getting panned at the time. This all actually makes sense now.....

[JESII]

Sean,

You didn't know it at the time?

[Sean Leary]

Sully,

I didn't remember his perspective at the time to be honest. Its just interesting seeing him go with the grain rather than against it. Must be hard for him.

[John Kavanaugh]

Sully,

I didn't remember his perspective at the time to be honest. Its just interesting seeing him go with the grain rather than against it. Must be hard for him.

Go with the grain? I'm the wind on this baby. I was the last man to join that course before the baker brought in a fresh oven from Jackson Hole.  The oven is hot and the new chef is at work.  There is still room at the table for anyone with a slab of butter who wants to join in on the feast.  It ain't quite Biblical so hurry up before the loaves run out.

[John Kavanaugh]

Who doesn't love the 7th at Sand Hills.  I've even heard of high single digit handicaps that can drive the green.  A great hole and another perfect example of what a short par 4 can be.

Until just this morning I had considered the 7th at Dismal to be the most average hole, one that could be found on many different courses, until it occurred to me that it goes against the Nicklaus stereotype of promoting a fade.  It is a nice big simple drive that rewards a draw from an elevated tee.  The second is again an uphill +- 190 yd shot to an interesting green.

Once again I am not going to allow length to dictate difficulty.

I find the 7th at Sand Hills to be the more difficult hole because of the psychological disadvantage it puts on the weak mind. I've got to hit driver, can't help it.  What a great hole.

The match, in my eyes stands:

1. Dismal
2. Dismal
3. Even
4. Sand Hills
5. Dismal
6. Sand Hills
7. Sand Hills

Match even.

[Eric Smith]

A year ago I thought the 7th at DR was a pretty tough hole. Longish uphill approach to a tilted green that feeds a weakly struck approach towards a nasty front bunker. In my most recent round I played a big running draw off the tee, stuck a 7 iron above the hole and made a 20' down hill slider for bird! Probably my favorite birdie this year. I even did the Hale Irwin afterwards. Surely this is the way the hole will play from now on.

7 at SH may be short, but it's defenses are many. I'd guess that the # of birdies here vs # birdies on the 8th is markedly less.



My first time around I drove it up to the front right edge of the green, then watched it trickle about 40 yards down the slope leaving an extremely delicate pitch (now blind from here) to a slick little green, where I pitched it on and then three putted . All the short grass around the green makes for fun and challenging golf. I love it.

The dominate hazard on this hole looks pretty nasty and I would say don't go there, but my friend Tony Weiler found himself in there, knocked it on and parred the hole.

[/img]

The uphill nature of the approach on 7DR causes me to think that the 9 capper would under club more often than not, flirting with bogey (and that deep little bunker) more regularly than he would on 7SH.

1 - DR
2 - PUSH
3 - PUSH
4 - SH
5 - DR
6 - SH
7 - DR

Dismal 1 Up

[Scott Szabo]

Gosh, I'm truly sorry if anyone is offended by my participating here.  I think I have started one thread, and only contribute with something meaningful or factual to share, mostly about Dismal River and/or Sand Hills and/or the region.  I share it with like minded individuals and anyone may feel free to disagree.  For me, it isn't PR, or pumping up, its information and a shared passion for good golf...all good golf, and things good about golf.  I get my reward when members and guests leave 201 very happy, and I'm happy with 201 as 201.  There don't seem to be as many naysayers these days and that is due to outstanding people and a lot of effort.  I didn't start this thread but, from experience, do have something to add. 

Here is a fun piece that should be meaningful for all here.  Our Super, Jagger Mandrell, has a 7 man crew today.  & Total!  Jagger oversees the Nicklaus course and the grow in of six new greens and surrounds.  In his spare time, he also cooks every meal for his crew + Don and His Crew + Tom and his crew, lunch and dinner, every day, 7 days a week.  We have several key guys like that here, one even has an ugly dog names Annie!  Kyle and the crew at Sand Hills are the same.  If you have a crew like this at your club, you are lucky.  I certainly am.  Next time you visit you club, drop off a case, or a bottle of Kentucky Deluxe, at maintenance and tell them thanks.  Busch Light here, please.

And...this is so hard...<fidgeting>...<fidgeting even more>...I used a belly putter my last 3 rounds.  There, now its finally out there.

Let the stoning begin...

Chris,

Don't be sorry about participating.  Your first hand knowledge of the two clubs as well as the sand hills region in general are refreshing. 

Busch Light - much better than that Keystone Light your guys were stomaching.  A definite step in the right direction.

The belly putter, now that's a different story......

Scott

[Kalen Braley]

Chris,

I for one have greatly appreciated your enthusiasm for Dismal River and great golf in general.  I know you've posted kind words about all the other terrific courses in the general area as well, so I think your heart is in the right place. Your passion for it definitely comes thru in your posts, so by all means keep up the good work.  People who are truly engaged in the pursuit of quality golf in all its forms is exactly what the industry needs IMO.

[Peter Pallotta]

John - as you know, you possess one of the finest architectural minds in the world.  This has been an interesting exercise for an outsider like me, and it's a pleasure to learn much about these two courses. But I hope that, as it moves on through the remaining holes/match, you take some time to begin formulating an over-arching and/or comprehensive theory about the nature of a 'golfing test' and its relationship to various ideas about sound golf course architecture.  Thank you.

Peter 

[John Kavanaugh]

John - as you know, you possess one of the finest architectural minds in the world.  This has been an interesting exercise for an outsider like me, and it's a pleasure to learn much about these two courses. But I hope that, as it moves on through the remaining holes/match, you take some time to begin formulating an over-arching and/or comprehensive theory about the nature of a 'golfing test' and its relationship to various ideas about sound golf course architecture.  Thank you.

Peter 

Ptr,

Thank you.  I don't believe in a comprehensive theory about the nature of a golfing test or that sound architecture exists. I can only tell you what I perceive to be difficult. Considering that the perception of difficulty often does not match reality I will not be able to answer your question.  I do believe that if you want a text book example of golfing architectural perfection you should play Sand Hills and reverse engineer your thought process going forward.

[John Kavanaugh]

How else can I possibly explain that 7 at Sand Hills is more difficult than the seventh at DismaL  There is no logical reasoning to it.

[Mac Plumart]

I do believe that if you want a text book example of golfing architectural perfection you should play Sand Hills

Sound advice.

[Charlie Goerges]

John, your child-like excitement and wonderment when talking about Dismal is refreshing. Happiness and positiveness (sp?) is a good "look" for you.