[John Kavanaugh]

John, your child-like excitement and wonderment when talking about Dismal is refreshing. Happiness and positiveness (sp?) is a good "look" for you.

It's hard to not embrace your own negativity when you are hater hating.  I like being happy.

[Chris Johnston]

Late today due to a long drive.  I will weigh in on both 7 and 8 as I have some family time ahead.

I've made eagle at Sand Hills #7 several times over the years.  I seldom make bogey.  For me, this holes defines the perfect short par 4.  The green is very small and has slope, bit the leat backstop is prfect after a long drive right.

#7 at Dismal River is also a very good hole, lone dogleg left, uphill second shot that allows for ground game.

No question, Dismal#7 is the more difficult.

For the 8ths, the logic from the previous hole is reversed a bit. 

Dismal #8 is a drivable par 4.  You may also lay the ball into a generous landing area leaving no more than a Pw-9iron into a backstop.  I witnessed the esteemed Mr. Cummings ace the par 4 last year, and I have eagled it 2 time this year with only one bogey.

Sand Hills #8 is a wonderful medium Par4, into the prevailing wind.  Wide pitched fairway, great fast ampitheater green and surround with several bunkers ringing the green.  Devious pot bunker right in front.

Again, no question for me here, #8 at Sand Hills is the more difficult.

My tally through 8 - Sand Hills 4up.

1  Sand Hills
2  Sand Hills
3  Sand Hills
4  Sand Hills
5  Dismal River
6  Sand Hills
7  Dismal River
8  Sand Hills

[Mark Saltzman]

The 7th at SH has got to be one of the great short par-4s in the world.  Everything from 2-6 is very possible.  Probably the best part of this hole, as John mentions, is that there is such a perfect risk/reward proposition that I can't imagine anyone ever lays-up on this hole.  The green is within reach for many and with no water hazards and no OB anywhere, the possibility of making for is just too alluring to ignore.  Find the bunker left and you aren't making 4.  From the run-off to the right, one can still make birdie --- or they can waste 3 shots trying to get up the slope and make X.  At the end of the day, though, this is a birdie hole.

The 7th at DR, especially from the back tees, has as beautiful a view as one will ever want to see.  Don't get too caught up though, this hole is a brute.  Though downhill, the hole is long and the inside of the dogleg is not carryable (for most).  The approach will be with at least a long iron to an uphill green with significant run-offs into bunkers on the right.  There is a great back-left pin position that is really tough to get to (though don't tell me and JNC that, we both had 5-foot birdie putts to it!). A very good 4.5 par hole, but clearly the more difficult of the 7s at DR and SH.

Dismal River Wins.  Sand Hills 1 UP.


Sand Hills, Hole 7: Par 4, 280 Yards






Dismal River, Hole 7: Par 4, 440 Yards - back tee view

[Mark Saltzman]

For reference, I have 3 total plays on Sand Hills (2 from the mid tees and one from the tips), and maybe 15 plays at Dismal from all the tees.

3 is a tough call...maybe I should have said it was a push.  Target is bigger at Sandhills without as severe bunkering.  Trust me, that back right bunker at Dismal is beyound brutual!!!  I think I was with Eric when I got in it.  My best play was out sideways, but I didn't do that.  Ugh!!  There are just places at Dismal that if you miss to (short or long right) you are dead.  Sand Hills seemed to provide a good recovery shot from anywhere. 

I don't think either 5th hole is particularly hard.  Dismal is "tricky" but even missing long or short is recoverable.  The bunkers on 5 at Sand Hills can make a miss disaster, when there is little disaster at Dismal.

6 is easy/straight forward at Sand Hills.  6 at Dismal can be tricky.  It is a unique hole at Dismal that can tempt you to fire up close to the green or lay back.  But laying back sometimes puts people into an "in-between" shot and run-ups are beyond tricky on this hole.  Sand Hills #6 should never be any worse than bogey, while Dismal can rack up an "other" with a missed driver or approach shot.

Mac,

Reading your descriptions it struck me that we think of difficulty differently, especially looking at holes 3 and 6.

You talk a lot about the possibility for really big numbers on Dismal 3 and 6.  I think more about median, though I suppose I should be thinking about the mean.  At Dismal 3, for example, I'm thinking that you're going to make lots and lots of 3s and a few 2s... but I guess a miss could be a 5 easily.  At SH 3, I think you're going to make a lot of 4s, some 3s and a few 5s.  To me, that makes the Sand Hills hole harder. Most times I play it, I'm not getting through in par or better.  It's almost the exact same situation for hole 6.

[Mac Plumart]

Mark...

I think you are spot on regarding this facet of evaluation.  And I think that is why this thread is interesting.  The difference in handicap seems to affect difficulty evaluation.  For me, shooting low 80's is a damn good round.  So pars and a number of bogeys are ok.  I need to avoid blow ups.  I think mid to low 70's is probably good for you.  Hence the need for a few birdies.  This bleeds through on hole difficulty evaluation and is interesting to read.

[John Kavanaugh]

The 8th is an interesting comparison because they are both short par 4's.  On most typical days Dismal sets their hole up short enough that most golfers can give it a go.  That is where the difference exists. One of my first rounds at Dismal was a best ball tournament where our first hole was the eighth. We were playing three best balls out of four.  The hole offers you the opportunity of going for the green setting up an 85% chance of making birdie or hitting a poor shot where you have an 85% chance of making double or worse.  In my infinite wisdom, since it was the first hole of a three day tournament, I told my team that we can't win the tournament on this one hole but we could lose it.  We all four took the lay up route to the left and played the hole even par to go on to lose the tournament by over 30 strokes.  Surprisingly since then, when again playing in a stroke play match consisting of the total strokes for a 5 day trip, I protected a lead by laying up once again.  I won that match by two strokes when I birdied the last hole of the trip.  The eighth of Dismal is a great stroke play hole.

I must have played the 8th at Sand Hills in an odd wind.  I found it drivable and simple by design.  Few choices but to bomb driver right at the bunker figuring the dreaded straight ball is the worst that can happen.  I do love the green and the hole but see it as easy.

The 8th at Dismal is the harder hole.

The match, in my eyes stands:

1. Dismal
2. Dismal
3. Even
4. Sand Hills
5. Dismal
6. Sand Hills
7. Sand Hills
8. Dismal

Dismal 1 up.

[Chris Johnston]

John, I agree Dismal River 8 is the better hole wrt risk/reward.  The approach into SH #8 requires a very precise shot, many times with a shorter than one is comfortable shot.

I agree with you, for match play, Dismal 8 requires thought and strategy but I have reached the green with both 3wood and 3iron.  If you have a go at the green and miss, you are usually left with a chip or short sand shot.  If you miss Sand Hills 8 bt the same margin, you can easily find yourself in the native with a more difficult shot into a far more challenging and faster green.  In terms of everyday play, I have to disagree.  That's why I love this thread.

See you next week!

[Charlie Goerges]

Get yourself one of the Gutta Percha golf balls that Mac has and Dismal 8 becomes a terrific risk/reward par 5 from the member tees. Play a diagonal tee shot as close to the gunsch as you dare. lay up to the right or left fairway OR go for the green in two with a hybrid/long iron.

[John Kavanaugh]

It is important to note that the 8th at Dismal has a back tee that I can't wait to hear if ole knock it out 240 Saltzman reached the green.  On an unusual note, one of my buddies made the rare lost ball par on 8 at Dismal.  His provisional was so close to the pin that he begged us not to look for his ball.  You don't have to beg me long not to look for a ball.

[Chris Johnston]

John - that's a hoot!  Imagine if you found it!

And, for the record, you would clean my clock head to head so I love when you share your strategy!

Saltzman at 240...now, THAT's PR!

[John Kavanaugh]

On some thread Saltzman claimed to only hit his driver around 240 yds.  I don't know what he was doing playing the tips at Dismal but am thrilled that he loves the course.

Yes I am going to be out there next week and am amazed you are driving back.  Looked for you in the premier of Modern Family last night.  I can't get Dismal out of my head.

That being said, if anyone reading this thread wants to join me and Eric Smith for a round or two on Saturday October 1st, we would be glad to have you.  If you are not reading this thread and want to join us, that is fine too.

[Mark Saltzman]

On some thread Saltzman claimed to only hit his driver around 240 yds.  I don't know what he was doing playing the tips at Dismal but am thrilled that he loves the course.

John, yes I do hit it 240 on average.  Unlike most out there who say they hit it 275, but really do that once per round and actually hit about 225 in the right rough 10 times per round, I am realistic.

During my two weeks in NE I played perhaps the best I have ever played, or at the very least, the best I have played in at least five years.  Not surprisingly, with my confidence up, I was hitting the ball farther.  Add that to the F&F conditions out there and I was probably averaging around 275 and every so often this pea shooter was able to knock it 300+.

I generally do not willingly play 7400 yard golf courses, which DR is from the tips.  But, two days earlier, I met CJ at Sand Hills and he said we should play the 7200 yard tippy tips and they did not play long at all.  I figured it would be the same story at DR so I played the tips there.  It wasn't until he came out to see me on the 14th and asked me how I was enjoying it and my first answer was "man it's tough," that he said "Saltz, this isn't Sand Hills, no one plays the back tees here."  Oops.

For the record I shot 76 from the back tees and here are the clubs I hit into every hole.  If you are longer than I am, which it sounds like you are, you should try the back tees.

1- 6i
2- 2 hybrid
3- 4i
4- SW
5- 4i
6- SW
7- 2 hybrid
8- GW (3W off tee)
9- LW
10- 5i
11- 2 hybrid
12- PW
13- 8i
14- 3W
15- 5i
16- 6i
17- 7i
18- SW

[Mark Saltzman]

Neither 8th hole is particularly difficult, though both are really fun. 

The 8th at SH has a very simple tee shot with a very wide fairway to the left and a bunker protecting the ideal angle of approach on the right.  It also has one of the great greens in golf, one which C&C decided to copy on several other courses.  Downwind, this hole is driveable.  If you're above the hole, you may putt the ball off the green, but there should be way more 3s and 4s here than 5s or higher.

The 8th at DR is very driveable from the members tees. Playing a total of about 240 yards, the carry to reach the upper fairway is only about 210 yards.  The tendency will be to bail right away from the deep bunkering on the left, and fortunately there is a large area right of what is visible that opens up.  I would love to see the rough there cut down to fairway height, but I like to nitpick.  Hit your tee shot way right or pull it into the bunker complex and you couple put up a big number.  Still, this hole should see mostly 3s and 4s and many on this board have made 2s.

Hole halved, Sand Hills 1UP.


Dismal River, Hole 8: Par 4, 270 Yards - View from 310 yard back tee




Sand Hills, Hole 8: Par 4, 330 Yards

[Charlie Goerges]

On some thread Saltzman claimed to only hit his driver around 240 yds.  I don't know what he was doing playing the tips at Dismal but am thrilled that he loves the course.

John, yes I do hit it 240 on average.  Unlike most out there who say they hit it 275, but really do that once per round and actually hit about 225 in the right rough 10 times per round, I am realistic.

During my two weeks in NE I played perhaps the best I have ever played, or at the very least, the best I have played in at least five years.  Not surprisingly, with my confidence up, I was hitting the ball farther.  Add that to the F&F conditions out there and I was probably averaging around 275 and every so often this pea shooter was able to knock it 300+.

I generally do not willingly play 7400 yard golf courses, which DR is from the tips.  But, two days earlier, I met CJ at Sand Hills and he said we should play the 7200 yard tippy tips and they did not play long at all.  I figured it would be the same story at DR so I played the tips there.  It wasn't until he came out to see me on the 14th and asked me how I was enjoying it and my first answer was "man it's tough," that he said "Saltz, this isn't Sand Hills, no one plays the back tees here."  Oops.

For the record I shot 76 from the back tees and here are the clubs I hit into every hole.  If you are longer than I am, which it sounds like you are, you should try the back tees.

1- 6i
2- 2 hybrid
3- 4i
4- SW
5- 4i
6- SW
7- 2 hybrid
8- GW (3W off tee)
9- LW
10- 5i
11- 2 hybrid
12- PW
13- 8i
14- 3W
15- 5i
16- 6i
17- 7i
18- SW

I think your mistake, Mark, is over-estimating the value of what an average represents. I would guess my average would be a bit lower than yours, let's say 230 yards. I can't really play for that average though, because its made up of 180 yard snap hooks and popups and respectable 250-260 yard shots hit on the proverbial screws with the occasional slightly mishit 230 yeard drive. (none of these figures represent carry only). So maybe you can see where some might be coming from regarding the distance. You might be absolutely right as to your average but from personal experience, it's hard to imagine you shooting 76 from the back tees with a bunch of 240 yard drives. I could be wrong and may well be, but hopefully you'll understand the opposite side of the "argument".

[Eric Smith]

Are all those bunkers natural?

[Mac Plumart]

For me thus far...

#1--Dismal
#2--Sand Hills
#3--Dismal
#4--Sand Hills
#5--Sand Hills
#6--Dismal
#7--Dismal
#8--Push (both holes are easy and really fun!!)

Dismal 1 up.

[John Kavanaugh]

Note:  I am finishing the front nine to round things off then abstaining until I play Dismal this weekend. 

Comparing the difficulty of the 9th holes of each course is perhaps the easiest of all.  The 9th at Dismal is a difficult drive and second shot.  The third is of course dependent on the success of your first two and can be a bunch of fun given the various back stops and bowls that make up the green.

The ninth at Sand Hills is a head scratcher for me.  I get the impression that Ben's Porch was already completed and the designers were in a hurry to get a burger.  Even Ran has little to say beyond the interest of hitting off an uneven lie.  It is a simple hole whose difficulty is the result of a golfers incompetence, or empty stomach.

The 9th at Dismal is clearly more difficult.


The match, in my eyes stands:

1. Dismal
2. Dismal
3. Even
4. Sand Hills
5. Dismal
6. Sand Hills
7. Sand Hills
8. Dismal
9. Dismal

Dismal 2 up after 9.

[Chris Johnston]

John, we agree.

The hole 9 comparisons are the esrever of the hole 1 comparisons - close call.  Like #1 at Sand Hills, the par 5 9th at Dismal is long, tricky, and full of spots that can punch the ticket to bogey.  The drive is down the right side of the expanded fairway.  The layup is fairly easy if you hit the fairway but you will likely have a down hill lie and the green is extremely challenging if you put the ball in the wrong spot. The right side of the green is well defended with bunkers but there is a backstop opportunity at all back pin locations.  I also believe 9 at Dismal is easier than #1 at Sand Hills as the hole plays downhill rather than up.

#9 at Sand Hill makes for a difficult uphill drive over native.  Long hitters can hug the right side (like at Dismal #1 hugging the left side), so the uphill second shot can be short or long into a very challenging and quick green.  The left side is false front than can push the ball back down 30 yards into a bowl leaving a difficult chip as can missing long or right.  The thought and smell of hamburgers is indeed a distraction.  I still look up there to see Tom Simonson - rest in peace, my good friend.  Also, for comparison, #9 at Sand Hills is a more difficult hole than # 1 at Dismal.

For the exact same reasons as the #1's, Dismal is the more difficult.  This is the similar analysis as the #1's and consistency if judgment is only proper.  Both very good holes.

1  Sand Hills
2  Sand Hills
3  Sand Hills
4  Sand Hills
5  Dismal River
6  Sand Hills
7  Dismal River
8  Sand Hills
9  Dismal River

Sand Hills wins the front 9 - 3 up.

[Mac Plumart]

Super interesting stuff!!

I've found 9 at Dismal to be very difficult for the low handicapper going for the green in two, but for Mac "Bogey is Fine" Plumart I think the hole is VERY playable.  I can usually hit the green (or just barely miss it  ) on my third shot and have a shot at a good score.  I can't tell you how many times I've seen long hitters/good golfers fire at that green on their second shot, end up just short and roll into a nasty place and/or land in a bunker.  The going can be TOUGH from there.

I usually hit driver, 6/7 iron to the second landing area and have another 6/7 iron into the green from a nice big flattish landing area with a downhill shot.  Those are my favorite distances and the best spots to strike the ball from on that hole...IMO.

9 at Sand Hills is probably the easier hole, even if it is uphill.  But 9 at Dismal is a heck of a lot easier than people think, perhaps a few rounds out there will open people's eyes on how to play it.  In fact, (I'm just recalling right now)...when I went out there last month I took some low handicappers and they all fired at the green in two until the last day.  A buddy of mine, who is a 2 handi and who drives the ball 300+ and had been frustrated by this hole the entire trip, nutted his drive, looked over at me and said, "Hey, I don't think I need to go for this in two.  What if I lay up to that landing area like you do and fire from there?".  He did...and ended up with his best score on that hole (I can't recall if it was birdie or par, but I do remember the smile he had on his face as we headed to 10). 

Anyway, that is the fun of playing new courses...figuring out the best way to play them for YOUR game.

[Mark Saltzman]

Neither 9s are overly difficult.  Each provides a reasonable chance at birdie, but getting a little too aggressive on the tee shot or missing your approach in the wrong spot on either can lead to 6X easy enough.

Neither tee shot is very comfortable since both are blind (DR downhill blind and SH uphill blind).  Though the width at DR 9 that one can hit it in and be OK is much larger than at SH, I find the DR tee shot more difficult because of the lack of clear aiming points.  You have a general idea of what should be good and what shouldn't, but without a caddie (or a Mac, Eric or CJ) in your group, there's no way you can be confident with a line.  The tee shot at 9 at SH, while blind, is obvious where you should be hitting it.

The second shot at DR is very easy from a good position and very hard from a bad one.  Cleverly placed bunkers along the right side of the fairway should never be in play after a good tee shot, but since they equal death, must be kept in mind after a bad one.

The third shot at DR is very easy with the green essentially forming two large bowls.  If you can't get your ball in the right bowl with a wedge in your hand, please get in the cart and drive back to Jack's Shack for a couple of beers.  Then inquire about the availability of teaching pros!

The approach to SH is one of the least interesting on the course. JK, you probably are right, C&C could smell that special seasoning and just plunked something down.  That being said, there are a lot of places you simply can't miss to.

Overall, SH is a hole you should par a lot and make a few bogies.  Not many 3s or 6s.  Dismal is a hole that should see a bunch of 4s (birdies) and 5s (pars), but it has the greater potential for big numbers because of the difficult fairway bunkering and the hazard down the left (way, way left), but still there.

Hole is Halved.  Sand Hills 1 UP.

[Mac Plumart]

10 at Dismal is easy but fun. 

10 at Sand Hills is certainly more difficult.

Dismal 1 up overall.

[Chris Johnston]

Mac - I agree 100% with you on the 10ths.  At 150 yards or less, the 10th at Sand Hills is much more difficult, even if you hit it in the center bunker at Dismal River.

Front 9 - Sand Hills 3up
Hole 10 - Sand Hills

Sand Hills 1 up on the back nine, 4 up on the 18.  Dismal River presses both the the back and the 18.

[Scott Szabo]

Mac - I agree 100% with you on the 10ths.  At 150 yards or less, the 10th at Sand Hills is much more difficult, even if you hit it in the center bunker at Dismal River.

Front 9 - Sand Hills 3up
Hole 10 - Sand Hills

Sand Hills 1 up on the back nine, 4 up on the 18.  Dismal River presses both the the back and the 18.

A press?  This is going to get interesting.  With the exception of maybe 3 holes on the back nine at Sand Hills, it is a brute.  Are we to infer that DR will be making a strong comeback?

[Chris Johnston]

Mac - I agree 100% with you on the 10ths.  At 150 yards or less, the 10th at Sand Hills is much more difficult, even if you hit it in the center bunker at Dismal River.

Front 9 - Sand Hills 3up
Hole 10 - Sand Hills

Sand Hills 1 up on the back nine, 4 up on the 18.  Dismal River presses both the the back and the 18.

A press?  This is going to get interesting.  With the exception of maybe 3 holes on the back nine at Sand Hills, it is a brute.  Are we to infer that DR will be making a strong comeback?

Scott - just "spicing" things up a bit.  We're playing for Dismal bumper stickers.

[Mark Saltzman]

The 10s are not a difficult comparison.  10 at DR is a birdie hole, 10 at SH is a half-par hole on the over-par side. 

Even though the comparison is clear, I should mention that I did not get to play to the back pin, which is undoubtedly the most difficult pin.  Also, with the green essentially forming three bowls, shots hit to the wrong part of the green or missing the green in the wrong place can easily lead to double-bogies.

Sand Hills wins.  Sand Hills 2 UP.


Dismal River, Hole 10: Par 3, 150 Yards





Sand Hills, Hole 10: Par 4, 470 Yards

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