[Craig Van Egmond]

Mark,

     Are you listing Sahalee as #5 or do you still have more that are better.

     Why does Tumble Creek get so little respect?   Wine Valley must be good.   Other than Chambers Bay would you give them higher than a 6 or 7 on the Doak Scale.

     The bar was pretty low when I lived there.

[Sean Leary]

Craig,

Nothing other than Chambers is above a Doak 6 in my mind. (I have not played Wine Valley).

[Craig Van Egmond]

Craig,

Nothing other than Chambers is above a Doak 6 in my mind. (I have not played Wine Valley).

I'd agree with that.

Is Chambers an 8?

[Mark Saltzman]

Mark,

     Are you listing Sahalee as #5 or do you still have more that are better.

     Why does Tumble Creek get so little respect?   Wine Valley must be good.   Other than Chambers Bay would you give them higher than a 6 or 7 on the Doak Scale.

     The bar was pretty low when I lived there.

Craig,

I have only played six courses in WA, the last one being Palouse Ridge. I may catch flak for saying it, but if given a choice, I would play PR again over Sahalee.

As a non-local I don't know why Tumble receives such little acclaim, though aside from CB and Sahalee I'm not sure anything in WA receives much publicity.

Doak scale ratings:
CB - 8
WV - 8
TC - 6
Aldarra - 6
PR - 5
Sahalee - 5

[Craig Van Egmond]

Mark,
   
    Next time you need to play the Olympic course at Gold Mountain and then your Washington playing experience should be complete.

[PCCraig]

While I thought Sahalee features a pretty darn good set of greens, I wasn't a huge fan overall of the course and think it has way too many trees for there to be any strategy other than hitting fairways and avoiding hitting branches.

[Lou_Duran]

Mark,
   
    Next time you need to play the Olympic course at Gold Mountain and then your Washington playing experience should be complete.

Vastly overrated.  I gave up the chance to replay Chambers Bay to play GM-O and greatly regret it.  But I am not sure that CB is deserving of its acclaim either.  A great site, drop-dead gorgeous, but green conditions leave a lot to be desired of.  Ditto for the the customer base which does not appear to know what it has (or believes that the fee includes being relieved of fixing ball marks and raking bunkers).  For having wide, open hole corridors, the high natives and impossible lies seemed to pop-up a lot.

[Peter Ferlicca]

I am with Mark on this one

I would rank them as follows also
1. Chambers
2. Wine Valley
Tie for 3rd.  Aldarra and Tumble Creek
And then you can get into Sahalee

I just didn't have a good time playing Sahalee, I just thought it was boring and repetitive.  Brent mentioned that the greens were the nicest he has seen.  Well I am guessing he hasn't played Aldarra or Tumble because there conditions are by far the best in Washington.  Chambers greens are getting better each year also, I played there last summer and both times they were fantastic.  When I travel back up to Washington next summer, I plan on playing as much golf as I can in about 5 days, and Sahalee will not be on my schedule.  I have a more enjoyable time at Broadmoor than Sahalee. 

Oh and one more thing, on the pet peeve of golf design thread.  The double hazard of being in a bunker and then being blocked out by a massive tree.  Sahalee is the king of that. 

[Kalen Braley]

I put it like this:

Chambers: 9
Wine Valley:8

I'll be playing Tumble Creek soon and will weigh in on that course as well.

The next highest course I've played in WA state would be Palouse Ridge at a 6.

[Sean Leary]

Sahalees conditions in the summer are excellent.

Nothing touches the conditions at Tumble in WA. Perfect.

KB,

Palouse Ridge as a 6 surprises me.

[Mark Saltzman]

Sahalees conditions in the summer are excellent.

Nothing touches the conditions at Tumble in WA. Perfect.

KB,

Palouse Ridge as a 6 surprises me.

Sean,

Palouse higher or lower than six for you?

And I don't think CB is a 9. I would be more comfortable giving WV a 9 than CB.

[Kalen Braley]

Sean,

Here's the thing... I could even make an argument that it meets the criteria for a 7:

7 - An excellent course, worth checking out if you get anywhere within 100 miles. You can expect to find soundly designed, interesting holes, good course conditioning and a pretty setting, if not necessarily anything unique to the world of golf.  

However, given some routing oddities, the completely featureless greens, and a couple of similar holes... I felt it was just missing a little too much to be a 7.


As a 6 though, it easily qualifies in my mind:

A very good course, definitely worth a game if you’re in town, but not necessarily worth a special trip to see. It shouldn’t disappoint you.

If you are in Pullman, it is indeed a must play.  Its not a world beater course, but there was nothing about it that disappointed me.  Even driving the 100 miles from Spokane to see it didn't bother me either.  I will continue to play it at least twice per year.

[Craig Van Egmond]

Mark,
   
    Next time you need to play the Olympic course at Gold Mountain and then your Washington playing experience should be complete.

Vastly overrated.  I gave up the chance to replay Chambers Bay to play GM-O and greatly regret it.  But I am not sure that CB is deserving of its acclaim either.  A great site, drop-dead gorgeous, but green conditions leave a lot to be desired of.  Ditto for the the customer base which does not appear to know what it has (or believes that the fee includes being relieved of fixing ball marks and raking bunkers).  For having wide, open hole corridors, the high natives and impossible lies seemed to pop-up a lot.

In the land of the blind the one eyed man is king.  

As I said earlier, the bar is low in Washington. Although it certainly has improved since I left.

[Scott Szabo]

Wow, does this look tight.  Does a golfer who plays a strong draw or fade stand a fighting chance?

[Sean Leary]

I have not played Palouse Ridge, my comment is based upon others who have played it. Doak 6 is pretty strong.

[Michael Dugger]

Sean,

Here's the thing... I could even make an argument that it meets the criteria for a 7:

7 - An excellent course, worth checking out if you get anywhere within 100 miles. You can expect to find soundly designed, interesting holes, good course conditioning and a pretty setting, if not necessarily anything unique to the world of golf.  

However, given some routing oddities, the completely featureless greens, and a couple of similar holes... I felt it was just missing a little too much to be a 7.


As a 6 though, it easily qualifies in my mind:

A very good course, definitely worth a game if you’re in town, but not necessarily worth a special trip to see. It shouldn’t disappoint you.

If you are in Pullman, it is indeed a must play.  Its not a world beater course, but there was nothing about it that disappointed me.  Even driving the 100 miles from Spokane to see it didn't bother me either.  I will continue to play it at least twice per year.

Yes, you make a valid point, Kalen, but you also are excluding another comment Tom Doak made about NW golf.

In the Confidential Guide he also mentions that the overall quality of golf courses in the NW pales in comparison to the NE.

And what is a 6-7 in the NW would only be a 4-5 in the NE.

[Kalen Braley]

Sean,

Here's the thing... I could even make an argument that it meets the criteria for a 7:

7 - An excellent course, worth checking out if you get anywhere within 100 miles. You can expect to find soundly designed, interesting holes, good course conditioning and a pretty setting, if not necessarily anything unique to the world of golf.  

However, given some routing oddities, the completely featureless greens, and a couple of similar holes... I felt it was just missing a little too much to be a 7.


As a 6 though, it easily qualifies in my mind:

A very good course, definitely worth a game if you’re in town, but not necessarily worth a special trip to see. It shouldn’t disappoint you.

If you are in Pullman, it is indeed a must play.  Its not a world beater course, but there was nothing about it that disappointed me.  Even driving the 100 miles from Spokane to see it didn't bother me either.  I will continue to play it at least twice per year.

Yes, you make a valid point, Kalen, but you also are excluding another comment Tom Doak made about NW golf.

In the Confidential Guide he also mentions that the overall quality of golf courses in the NW pales in comparison to the NE.

And what is a 6-7 in the NW would only be a 4-5 in the NE.

That may be Mike,

But pretty much every good course that now exists in the PNW, didn't exist when he wrote TCG.

Chambers
Aldarra
Tumble Creek
Wine Valley
Circling Raven
Gozzer Ranch
RCCC
Idaho Club
Black Rock
Palouse Ridge
The courses at Bandon
etc, etc...

....were all built AFTER he wrote the book!  

I would certainly be interested to see how he rates those courses now....because his general assessment back then was likely very accurate.

Indian Canyon was the top dog here in Spokane and I wouldn't put it any higher than a 5 to 5.5 on the DS.

[Brent Carlson]

Peter,

Yes, I felt that Sahalee's greens were very true.  To your point I will concur that the greens at Aldarra and Tumble are equally as good.

If someone is visiting WA state for golf, I would say play the following courses and then decide:  All are at least a Doak 6 in my mind.

Chambers
Wine Valley (not yet played)
Tumble Creek
Aldarra
Gold Mountain - Olympic

I am with Mark on this one

I would rank them as follows also
1. Chambers
2. Wine Valley
Tie for 3rd.  Aldarra and Tumble Creek
And then you can get into Sahalee

I just didn't have a good time playing Sahalee, I just thought it was boring and repetitive.  Brent mentioned that the greens were the nicest he has seen.  Well I am guessing he hasn't played Aldarra or Tumble because there conditions are by far the best in Washington.  Chambers greens are getting better each year also, I played there last summer and both times they were fantastic.  When I travel back up to Washington next summer, I plan on playing as much golf as I can in about 5 days, and Sahalee will not be on my schedule.  I have a more enjoyable time at Broadmoor than Sahalee. 

Oh and one more thing, on the pet peeve of golf design thread.  The double hazard of being in a bunker and then being blocked out by a massive tree.  Sahalee is the king of that. 

[Lou_Duran]

I am with Mark on this one

I would rank them as follows also
1. Chambers
2. Wine Valley
Tie for 3rd.  Aldarra and Tumble Creek
And then you can get into Sahalee

I just didn't have a good time playing Sahalee, I just thought it was boring and repetitive.  Brent mentioned that the greens were the nicest he has seen.  Well I am guessing he hasn't played Aldarra or Tumble because there conditions are by far the best in Washington.  Chambers greens are getting better each year also, I played there last summer and both times they were fantastic.  When I travel back up to Washington next summer, I plan on playing as much golf as I can in about 5 days, and Sahalee will not be on my schedule.  I have a more enjoyable time at Broadmoor than Sahalee. 

Oh and one more thing, on the pet peeve of golf design thread.  The double hazard of being in a bunker and then being blocked out by a massive tree.  Sahalee is the king of that. 

The above is a good example of why we should treat the ratings of very subjective objects carefully.  Often we form strong opinions based on relatively brief exposure to the subject, then make comparisons to similiarly limited experiences, at times years apart.

Some folks like open courses with no trees (Chambers Bay).  Others like parkland courses (Sahalee).  Perhaps it has to do with the mind's eye.

I've played Sahalee three times, twice in beautiful sunshine, once in intermittent rain.  I did not find the course claustrophobic, nor exceedingly tight off the tee.  It is not a bomb and gouge course like Chambers, though when I first played it in the early 1980s, I could hit the ball 300 yards.  I found Sahalee neither boring or repetitive, instead providing off the tee short and long/aggressive options.  Like most modern courses, to score well, the approaches require consideration of where missed shots might end up, and the greens are subtly difficult.  I found the conditioning during what has been a wet year to be very adequate for the type of course.

Peter's report on the Chambers Bay greens is at great odds with my experience.  I played the course in mid-April and they were mostly sand with some root structure.  It was an improvement over my previous visit in 2008 where several greens were mostly sand with minimal plant life evident.  Both times the weather was blamed for their condition.  Given that chipping and putting is about half the game, greens are important to me and the separation of Sahalee and CB in this area is very large.

I don't get GM-Olympic.  IMO, there are any number of daily fee courses in Texas that compare favorably and get little recognition.

[Mike Hendren]

Wow, does this look tight.  Does a golfer who plays a strong draw or fade stand a fighting chance?

Yes, even if he doesn't know which shot will come off the club at any point in time!

I did not find the golf course claustrophobic at all.  Sure a little more width might be desirable, but the trees are indigenous and therefore sensible provided they don't hamper the growth of solid turf.  Also, while the course is hardly firm and fast, it was not a bog by any stretch either.  As Lou Duran rightly points our the defensive use of trees at least gives the player a reasonable recovery option - more desirable than re-loading and getting chiggers.  

Mucci laments Plainfield's vulnerability to scoring by professionals and ostensibly winners of long-driving contests yet the treehouse bashes Sahalee because it defends par in part through being heavily treed.  What is we gonna do?  I say in part because I believe the subtle micro-movement in Sahalee's greens , compounded by the surrounding hilly terrain is vastly underrated - I didn't see many mid and short length putts dropped in our foursome.  

Is it a great golf course? No.  Is is a very good golf course - kinda.  While vastly different than Aldarra and Tumble Creek, I'd put all three in the 6 range, though I prefer Tumble Creek as it accomodates my poor game.  Just becuase Sahalee's not our cup of tea doesn't diminish the fact that it's a pretty solid cup of tea.

As today's youth say, "it is what it is."

Bogey

[Mark Saltzman]

7 South   Par 4   Yards: 421

Straight and slightly downhill, with a tree on the right 150 yards from the tee and two trees on the left 275 yards out. Three bunkers surround the green, which is undulating around the edges.

Unappealing looking cartpath, but at least it's not going to affect play.  I actually don't remember this hole, so you'll have to just go with what's in the pictures.













8 South   Par 4   Yards: 444

Dogleg right, with a forest of trees to the right and three bunkers on the left side of a fairway that slopes to the left. Two bunkers guard the front of a green that rises from front to back. Anything above the  leads to a difficult two-putt.

Some more penal architecture.  From the tee it looks like the play is to challenge the right side, but once in the fairway it becomes clear that anything right of the centre of the fairway is partially or completely blocked-out.  The ideal line, which challenges the outside of the dogleg, must deal with a series of bunkers.




From just in the right rough.  Notice flag is visible through the trees.  No option but to chip-out from here.




From the centre of the fairway half the green is blocked-out.




After an ideal tee shot in the left-centre of the fairway:

[Mark Saltzman]

9 South   Par 3   Yards: 213

Rhododendrons surround the back side of this undulating green that rises from front to back. A large lake with a railroad tie border curves around the left side of the green. Two bunkers guard the front, and the back drops off severely.

A hole that individually is quite strong, but is a little too similar to the other P3s on the golf course.  This is the second P3 in a row that was a 5i from the tee, but instead of water short-left, there is now water short-right.

The green is interestingly shaped with quite a bit of undulations.  A couple of 'wings' protected by bunkers allows for two very difficult pin positions.

[Mike Hendren]

I like the 8th - perhaps my favorite hole there.  A good example of the funnel hole with abundant width off the tee with the second shot played through a narrow shoot.  Cutting the corner is a sucker play and the better line is at the bunkers on the outside of the dogleg - both of which defy conventional wisdom, which needs the occasional defiance.  The sucker effect is magnified the the constricted fairways that preceed this hole.  Suddenly the big hitter thinks he can let loose given the perceived abundant fairway width.  Howeover, by prudently playing left off the tee this uphill hole plays surprisingly long. 

Mike

[Mark Saltzman]

1 North   Par 4   Yards: 401

Narrow tee lined with trees on both sides, but opens up about 235 yards off the tee. Approach drops significantly onto a flat green surrounded by a horseshoe-shaped lake, with a bunker front left and back right.













2  North   Par 5   Yards: 546

Dogleg left with trees down the left. The green has a semicircle shelf on the back. Jack Nicklaus made an eagle during his course-record 67 (since broken during the 1998 PGA Championship) by playing a fade over the trees and then a 2-iron through two trees 25 yards apart.

This was one hole where I thought the trees were just a bit too much.  With a centre-line tree and trees intruding from both the left and the right, one can get a feeling of having to 'hit and hope' on the second shot on this P5.  I feel an either/or approach would have worked better here.  Challenge the ability to hit it straight, or challenge the ability to hit it the correct distance.  Challenging both is boring.

[Mike Hendren]

Mark, you are quite kind regarding the 11th.  Without a doubt the worst tree placement/encroachment I've seen anywhere.  Can't defend it - no way, no how.   I do like the 10th, however, particularly the angle and massive size of the green there which calls for one choose a line, then execute both distance and direction.

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