[Joe Bausch]

A few weeks ago I drove up in a pouring rain thinking no way will I get a round in at the Tommy Fazio II course.  But I was happily pleased the skies cleared.

TFaz II is the nephew of TFaz, the son of less well known architect Jim Fazio.  I've not played a TFaz II course before (but have enjoyed one JFaz, El Diablo in central Florida).

Even with all the rain, the course was playable.  Certainly not firm, which I hope to experience in the future to contrast to how it played on this soggy day.

The New course at TB is the 'outer' course in this routing I put together from a 2008 Google aerial.  The 'inner' course you see is the TFaz Old course.



Go here for a much bigger version of the routing:

http://xchem.villanova.edu/~bausch/images/trumpbedminsternew/routing.jpg

According to TBNew's web page, Mr. Trump likes to begin a round with a very difficult hole.  Well, that is certainly true here.  The No 1 stroke hole opener is a par 4, a real firm handshake.  Maybe a handshake with the prankster and the buzzer in the palm.  

#1.  Par 4.



Here is the blue tee view (wisely, IMO, all the other tees are across the junk):



If you don't hit a long drive here, and are instead say +200 yards out, you see a downhill shot awaits but not all the the trouble is visible:



A very good second shot is needed, as a hazard crosses about 90 yards short of the green, with misses right no good either.



I did not get a chance to see how the hill short and left of the green could be used to tumble a ball onto the green:



A good view of the hole is provided from the hill over the green on the way to the 2nd tee:



#2.  A Redan-inspired par 3.



Blue tee view (I choose to just go right at the pin in an aerial fashion rather than try the 'Redan approach'!):



From just short of the green, where I'm curious if you really could use the slope to get a ball down to this day's pin:



Another from short of the green:



Looking back showing reasonably elevated tees:



#3.  Par 4.

I guess for the really big hitters this slightly uphill hole could be drivable if the tees are up.



Blue tee view where the smart play is a FW wood at the top of the building (you can see the flag over the large bunker):



A typical approach shot view, where there is a big collection area left of the green (and bunkers way short and left to grab drives hit too far, including those off line trying to drive the green):



From left of the green:



This view looking back shows the collection area and big bunker:



Three more holes tomorrow.

[David Cronheim]

I always thought the biggest problem with these two courses was the name - call them, say, Far Hills Country Club and they'd be a lot more acclaimed. To anyone in the industry or with any sort of reverence for the game, the Trump name is toxic. It carries connotations that are almost universally negative, which is a shame because I happen to like several "Trump" courses, most notably Trump Philly (former Pine Hill).

[Joe Bausch]

Have you played TB New David?  If 'yes', what do you think of any or all of the first three holes?  If you haven't played it, what do you think of them from the pics and commentary?

[Mark Saltzman]

Joe,

I usually have a pretty good idea if I am going to like a course after seeing the first three holes.  I am on the fence here.  More please.

I love the use of the slopes by the green on the first three holes. I am really intrigued by the slope on the first hole, though I figure I'd have to see it in person to really understand how you interact with it on the approach. 

From the pictures it doesn't seem like the kicker on the redan is large enough, but as I've found with several T Fazio courses, the kicker on modern redans is very small to accommodate modern green speeds.

I hate the right bunker in play off the first tee.  Anyone else feel like grabbing a shovel and filling it in?

[David Cronheim]

Have you played TB New David?  If 'yes', what do you think of any or all of the first three holes?  If you haven't played it, what do you think of them from the pics and commentary?

Joe, I got rained out the day I was supposed to play the New Course, so I have yet to play it. From the first three holes you've shown here, I think it looks nice. The critiques I've heard are that while each of the holes individually is nice, that put together as 18 it's a bit extreme, as if Trump was going for a signature hole on every hole. Now, I haven't played the New myself, so I can't comment, but as soon as I do, I will be sure to weigh in.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Joe,

# 1 felt a little awkward when I played it.
Whether it was a conflict with my eye or the nature of the hole or both, I don't know.
When I next play it I'll pay more attention.

# 2 was a good hole and I liked # 3.

Thanks for the photos

David,

How is the Trump name "toxic" ?

Almost everyone I know who has experienced a Trump product is positive about the quality of the product and the service associated with that product.

Does the "Donald" oversell himself ?  Sure, but he's produced quality products that are hardly deemed "toxic"

[David Cronheim]

Joe,

# 1 felt a little awkward when I played it.
Whether it was a conflict with my eye or the nature of the hole or both, I don't know.
When I next play it I'll pay more attention.

# 2 was a good hole and I liked # 3.

Thanks for the photos

David,

How is the Trump name "toxic" ?

Almost everyone I know who has experienced a Trump product is positive about the quality of the product and the service associated with that product.

Does the "Donald" oversell himself ?  Sure, but he's produced quality products that are hardly deemed "toxic"

I can tell you I'm not the only one who feels this way. Perhaps I have a bit of a biased sample, but I've spoken to many people who feel the same way I do. If you're looking for gaudy, over the top courses and clubhouses, Trump is great. I don't dispute that some of his courses are very good. In fact, if you read my first comment closely, I said that with a different name the (Old) course would be even more highly acclaimed. Give me a nice simple, functional clubhouse (e.g. Shinnecock) any day over one of Trump's Italian villas.

I think most of the golf world views him as a bit of a joke and I do too. A friend of mine is a member at Trump Bedminster and the Donald was out on the range one day berating the grounds crew about the fact there were flies on the range. Classic Donald. For me, anything in the golf industry that is associated with him carries all the negative connotations inherent with something run by him.

[Joe Bausch]

Joe,

# 1 felt a little awkward when I played it.
Whether it was a conflict with my eye or the nature of the hole or both, I don't know.
When I next play it I'll pay more attention.

Pat, I think 'awkward' is probably the way I also felt about it on my first and only visit.  Perhaps it is b/c I can't think of another hole like it from the few hundred courses I've played in my life.  It is different.  And it may be very good, but I need more time to digest it. 

I would add that it might be better received someplace later in the round, not as the opener.  And if Mr. Trump really likes a tough opener, then I doubt he would consider flipping the nines (and would start the round with a par 3).

[Chip Gaskins]

From a report over the summer....What the Trump brand means to some segments of the population: http://milo.com/blog/gen-ys-luxury-buys-young-people-crave-designer-brands/?display=wide

http://blogs.reuters.com/reuters-money/2011/07/19/how-generation-y-spends-on-luxury/

Check these new pics out of Trump Scotland or whatever its called...

http://yfrog.com/h8vgviwj

http://yfrog.com/h0nzndyej

http://yfrog.com/nx1dogj

Sorry for the threadjack Joe....now back to regularly scheduled broadcasting...  I think these pictures of Bedminster look pretty doggone good.  Love the width.

[Patrick_Mucci]

David,

How is the Trump name "toxic" ?

Almost everyone I know who has experienced a Trump product is positive about the quality of the product and the service associated with that product.

Does the "Donald" oversell himself ?  Sure, but he's produced quality products that are hardly deemed "toxic"

I can tell you I'm not the only one who feels this way.

Perhaps I have a bit of a biased sample, but I've spoken to many people who feel the same way I do.

If you're looking for gaudy, over the top courses and clubhouses, Trump is great.

What is "gaudy" or over the top with the clubhouse at Trump Bedminster ?
It's an old estate house, a Georgian Mansion previously part of the Cowperthwaite family Estate

I don't dispute that some of his courses are very good. In fact, if you read my first comment closely, I said that with a different name the (Old) course would be even more highly acclaimed. Give me a nice simple, functional clubhouse (e.g. Shinnecock) any day over one of Trump's Italian villas.

In its debut, Shinnecock's clubhouse was anything but simple, it was a Stanford White design.
Since when is the Cowperthwaite Georgian Mansion remotely like an Italian Villa.

Come to think of it, what Trump clubhouses of his are Italian Villas ?

I think most of the golf world views him as a bit of a joke and I do too.

No doubt, he's a caricature of himself, but, the products he produces are quality products with service to match.

A friend of mine is a member at Trump Bedminster and the Donald was out on the range one day berating the grounds crew about the fact there were flies on the range.


He's a stickler for details.  But, you don't know if he had prior conversations with his grounds crew about the problem.
Why would you want a fly infested range if you're trying to produce a quality product for your members and their guests ?

Classic Donald.


Don't judge him on the issue until you know all of the facts

For me, anything in the golf industry that is associated with him carries all the negative connotations inherent with something run by him.

Then, as a customer, you don't understand what a quality product is
He runs a terrific organization, including his golf clubs.

I think your ire is rooted more in his persona than his products.
[/quote]

[David Cronheim]

Look. I have no problem with Donald, except for the fact that a lot of his real estate projects go belly up. He's filed for chapter 11 four times and his investors lost millions. No one can dispute that, whatever he's done he's done, at least in part, by screwing his investors.

Ill reiterate that I think many of his courses are quite good. My overall point was that they would be more highly regarded if his name were not associated with them and frankly if they were run by someone else. That was my main point.

Also about what is or is not a quality product, I'm not just a customer, but in the industry as my family has owned a country club for over 60 years. I think I have a better handle than most. The trump brand is the golf version of real housewives of (insert town here).  If trump golf courses were ski resorts, they'd be the deer valleys of the world, whereas somerset hills or baltusrol would be Alta or telluride. There's nothing wrong with deer valley, but I don't need someone to put my skis on for me. I feel the same way about trump golf courses.

 My  take, rightly or wrongly, is that his product has a market - high net worth individuals, CEOs, bankers, etc.  However, I think people with some class and not just gobs of cash find the things that accompany his admittedly fine golf courses to be a bit over the top. I think there's a very strong disdain for trump courses from the "old guard" or mainline golf establishment. Again, the only point I was attempting to make was that his courses would be more highly regarded than they all ready are if he were not involved. You're free to disagree, but I think my opinion is fairly mainstream in the golf world.

[Mark McKeever]

That approach to hole one looks neat.  Id like to try to kick a ball close using the slope.  Hole 2 reminds me of hole 8 at Galloway no?

Mark

[Patrick_Mucci]

Look. I have no problem with Donald, except for the fact that a lot of his real estate projects go belly up.

None that I know of.

He's filed for chapter 11 four times and his investors lost millions.
No one can dispute that, whatever he's done he's done, at least in part, by screwing his investors.

Those filings I believe were for the same casino.
How would his investors have done if instead of filing Chapter 11 he filed Chapter 7 ?

Ill reiterate that I think many of his courses are quite good. My overall point was that they would be more highly regarded if his name were not associated with them and frankly if they were run by someone else. That was my main point.

David, I have to tell you that I think he runs a great operation.
I don't know anyone who complains about how he runs his golf operations.
Well, maybe one person I know.  But, in general, every member I talk to and I know dozens and dozens of them, and every employee I talk to, and I've talked to dozens and dozens of them, are all complimentary about the way he runs the club and what it's like to work for him.
So, I don't know where you're getting your information from, but it conflicts with the information I've received from many sources and my personal experiences at his clubs.

Also about what is or is not a quality product, I'm not just a customer, but in the industry as my family has owned a country club for over 60 years. I think I have a better handle than most. The trump brand is the golf version of real housewives of (insert town here).


I think you're way off base about that.
I think that's a perception you have that's based upon limited exposure.
Many of the courses he runs, he acquired as existing golf courses.
Trump Bedminster II and Trump Palm Beach were built from the ground up by him and both are good golf courses.
They may not be my favorites, but they're good golf courses.
I don't like the green to tee walks at Trump Bedminster II, but, the quality of the holes is good.

Trump Palm Beach is a good course.  I haven't played the new nine so I can't speak to it,

If trump golf courses were ski resorts, they'd be the deer valleys of the world, whereas somerset hills or baltusrol would be Alta or telluride.

Somerset Hills is light years removed from Baltusrol, there's just no comparison in the cultures of the two clubs.
I've been playing both clubs for about 50 years so I have some feel for their respective cultures and how they've been run over the past 5 decades.
How familiar are you with Somerset Hills and Baltusrol ?

There's nothing wrong with deer valley, but I don't need someone to put my skis on for me. I feel the same way about trump golf courses.
Which Trump courses have you played and how many times have you played each one ?

I've never had anything other than cordial service from everyone I've come into contact with at Trump's courses.
From car parkers to locker staff to pro-shop staff to waiters and waitresses to the caddy master and caddies.
I've never had anyone be overly solicitous, just polite and efficient.
Why would I or why should I expect less ?

My  take, rightly or wrongly, is that his product has a market - high net worth individuals, CEOs, bankers, etc.  

Then I think you have the wrong take.
I know individuals who joined his clubs because they were very conveniently located to their residences.
Now they're not cheap to join, but, neither is Baltusrol.


However, I think people with some class and not just gobs of cash find the things that accompany his admittedly fine golf courses to be a bit over the top.

How are they over the top ?
I know some very fine people, people with style, class and humility who belong to his clubs, why are you demonizing the membership ?

I think there's a very strong disdain for trump courses from the "old guard" or mainline golf establishment.


Like who ?
Last I looked, the membership's at Trump's courses were very diverse.
Are the "old guard" or mainline golf clubs equally diverse ?
Maybe that's the difference, old money versus new money.
It's pretty easy to inherit millions, it's pretty difficult to make it on your own and sometimes those cultures clash.

Again, the only point I was attempting to make was that his courses would be more highly regarded than they all ready are if he were not involved. You're free to disagree, but I think my opinion is fairly mainstream in the golf world.

I do disagree because I don't believe anyone else could run them as well as he does, that noone else could deliver the quality product he delivers to his membership.
He's a detail, service oriented guy who loves golf.
As to the mainstream of the golf world, I don't believe you speak for them.
And, I suspect, the rub against the "Donald" isn't how he runs his golf operations, which is very, very well, but rather his persona, which grates on more than a few people.
That part I fully understand.
The problem as I see it is that your disdain for Trump's clubs is more of an extension of your dislike of his persona.

But, I wouldn't criticize his method of operation and the product he presents unless you become more familiar with them.

With respect to Trump Bedminster I, the recent tree clearing vastly improved the course.
I'm still undecided about the routing changes although they seem to make sense.
I'll have to pay closer attention to the issues you raised when I play TB next.

I do like the range and practice putting greens AND, Iv'e never had a bad or mediocre caddy at any of his clubs.

[Steve Lapper]

David,

   Having played both Trump courses multiple times, I'd have to agree for the most part with Pat. They are solid tracks within a well-run operation that do provide a good experience for the visiting and member golfer. Several friends of mine who are members there came from nearby clubs (including your own) and feel like they've finally found a comfortable home for their golf and family activities. A few have remarked how happy they are that management pays such attention to detail and continues to contribute it's own capital to making significant improvements to the course(s) and club. That's not always the normal in today's golf industry.

  I think it is wise to focus on one's own operation and avoid criticizing your neighbors. lest you be considered to have a negative agenda.

  As for the merits of these first three holes, I too would like to see a higher kicker on the redan-style #2. It is dramatically downhill though and that might have had something to do with it? Mark's remark about kicking a ball to the hole on #1 is valid, however, I've always felt that the approaches need to be maintained a bit firmer to achieve the architectually-intended effect. Maybe that will happen over time? Conditioning, for the most part when I've been there, has been very good, however, a tad more green than I think would play best.

  I'll chirp in on some of the other holes as they get posted. There are some excellent ones, a  good number of very solid ones, and a few that prove more problematic.

  Btw......I love Joe's photographic posts....keep'em coming!!

[Joe Bausch]

#4.  Par 5.

An 'up-then-down' 3 shotter.



Tee shot (blind) view:



Both the 2nd shot and approach shot are downhill:





Hmm, I wonder who might have just come in for lunch and a quick nine?!



There is a big collection area long and right of the green:



#5. Uphill par 4.



Here's a view back down to the tees from the fw landing area:



A long drive is really useful here to get up to another tier, which is also a bit flatter:



Your dub might just choose to not take on that difficult approach shot and bunt one up the hill to leave this approach shot:



What a mild surprise it is as you approach the green, which is Biarritz-like, something I've never quite seen angled in this fashion:



From over the green, the bailout area is again long and right:



#6.  Downhill par 3.  This would be a nice par 4 for me from the tips.  



Blue tees view:



From short of the green:



A huge green with many plateaus, I would think there are many 3-putt bogeys here!



More later.

[David Cronheim]

Pat and Steve,

You're both entitled to your opinions, as am I. I've said repeatedly that I think his courses are generally quite good. I'm particularly a fan of Trump Philly, which I think is very underrated. I apologize if I offended either of you with my comments, but I stand by them. It'll be a cold day in hell before a Trump course, regardless of its merit as a venue, gets a high profile USGA event, like a US Open or US Am and, please note, I think that's both unfortunate and unfair. (And yes, I realize they got a US Junior (well deserved I might add)) because several of his courses are quite good.

You argue that's because of Trump's persona, not his products in and of themselves. I don't disagree. However, when you stamp your name on something, your name becomes part of that brand. The two become indistinguishable. My comment was a very narrow one, that if not for the Trump name, the courses would be even more highly regarded than they already are. I don't think anyone could take a comparison to Deer Valley as anything but a compliment on Trump's level of service. I certainly meant no offense to any of the club's member because, as you point out, some are members of my club as well. And yes, I made some over-generalizations for the sake of making a point. Some people are looking for that "Deer Valley" level of service and for them I think Trump is a great match. Kudos to Donald for understanding that and for catering to that market. I'm not going to say anything else on this subject.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Joe,

Nice pictures, thanks.

The 5th is a very unusual hole requiring a great drive and great second shot...... and then, there's still work to be done.

[Steve Lapper]

David,

    You are indeed entitled to your opinion and I believe there is plenty of merit for some of the things you mention, however, I'd never bet on the USGA to make the right decision (unless the Executive Committee abdicates all their decisional power to Mike Davis ). It's history suggests otherwise!

Pat & Joe,

   Do you think the 5th hole is a fair one? I'm not at all sure it is as the crowned green plays quite severe for almost every player who chooses to approach it in regulation. I did a little checking and saw that it was by and far (almost two full deviations) the toughest when the course hosted the NJ Amateur earlier this year. Those guys are good and they had a horrible time with it!

[Jed Peters]

I want to echo Steve and, particularly, Pat's comments.

I've played the Old and toured the New (including meeting Mr. Trump for a few holes of commentary and banter) and was impressed by the facility and efficiency with which it's run.

[Joe Bausch]

Pat & Joe,

   Do you think the 5th hole is a fair one? I'm not at all sure it is as the crowned green plays quite severe for almost every player who chooses to approach it in regulation. I did a little checking and saw that it was by and far (almost two full deviations) the toughest when the course hosted the NJ Amateur earlier this year. Those guys are good and they had a horrible time with it!

I don't know if it is fair right now, but I'm certain it is very hard!

Steve, how much dirt was moved to build that greensite?  Or is it pretty natural?  Just having that green modestly diagonally situated would ease that approach shot a bit, I think.

[Steve Lapper]

Pat & Joe,

   Do you think the 5th hole is a fair one? I'm not at all sure it is as the crowned green plays quite severe for almost every player who chooses to approach it in regulation. I did a little checking and saw that it was by and far (almost two full deviations) the toughest when the course hosted the NJ Amateur earlier this year. Those guys are good and they had a horrible time with it!

I don't know if it is fair right now, but I'm certain it is very hard!

Steve, how much dirt was moved to build that greensite?  Or is it pretty natural?  Just having that green modestly diagonally situated would ease that approach shot a bit, I think.

Joe,

  I don't know the answer to your question, but having met TFaz II at the US Juniors years back (and forging a rapport) with him, I've asked Rand and Ben to allow him to register here and make his own "spirited" post(s). He's an articulate and thoughtful guy so I hope he'll get on here soon enough to answer the barage of questions I've periodically asked of him.

  What interests me is how similar, yet different, the hole is to it's sister #5 on the Old course.

[Joe Bausch]

Pat & Joe,

   Do you think the 5th hole is a fair one? I'm not at all sure it is as the crowned green plays quite severe for almost every player who chooses to approach it in regulation. I did a little checking and saw that it was by and far (almost two full deviations) the toughest when the course hosted the NJ Amateur earlier this year. Those guys are good and they had a horrible time with it!

I don't know if it is fair right now, but I'm certain it is very hard!

Steve, how much dirt was moved to build that greensite?  Or is it pretty natural?  Just having that green modestly diagonally situated would ease that approach shot a bit, I think.

Joe,

  I don't know the answer to your question, but having met TFaz II at the US Juniors years back (and forging a rapport) with him, I've asked Rand and Ben to allow him to register here and make his own "spirited" post(s). He's an articulate and thoughtful guy so I hope he'll get on here soon enough to answer the barage of questions I've periodically asked of him.

  What interests me is how similar, yet different, the hole is to it's sister #5 on the Old course.

Steve, the hole diagram on the TBOld web page suggests the green is orientated like I suggested would make 5 New more playable:



True?

[Patrick_Mucci]

David,

    You are indeed entitled to your opinion and I believe there is plenty of merit for some of the things you mention, however, I'd never bet on the USGA to make the right decision (unless the Executive Committee abdicates all their decisional power to Mike Davis ). It's history suggests otherwise!

Pat & Joe,

   Do you think the 5th hole is a fair one? I'm not at all sure it is as the crowned green plays quite severe for almost every player who chooses to approach it in regulation. I did a little checking and saw that it was by and far (almost two full deviations) the toughest when the course hosted the NJ Amateur earlier this year. Those guys are good and they had a horrible time with it!

Steve,

I hate the use of the term "fair" because of the repercussions of trying to make holes "more fair"

I think it's a very difficult hole.

If I had my druthers, I'd move the tee up a bit as I think a mid-iron from an uphill lie should be the most the average to good golfer should be hitting into that green.

[Steve Scott]

We had our NJ PGA Championship on the New last year...really good test of golf as it has a variety of holes.  Number 5 green is probably the most severe on the course without too many hole locations....tough but not unfair by any means.  I prefer the New course to many of Trumps courses out there.  Fairly flat greens which allow green speeds to be very fast but puttable.  For our event they played hole #3 up a few tee boxes which allowed us to go for the green...on the back nine the island green on 14 is downhill and difficult with a similar elevation to PGA West Stadium 17 island green..trumps is a little larger in size however.  Overall a very enjoyable course but don't try to play from all the way back unless you have Bubba Watson length...many par 4's over 500 yards....

[Joe Bausch]

Ok, let's finish the front nine.

#7.  Slightly downhill par 4.



The view from the blue tees, where the landing area looks narrower than it is; there is fw over that left bunker:



And left or left-center is leaves the best angle of approach to one of my favorite greens on the course:



Right or right rough is less ideal for the approach (that first bunker left seems functionless to me though!):



From just over the green, which slopes a bit from front to back:



The green from the walk to the next tee:



I was distracted by the nice greensite of the last hole where I neglected to get a tee shot view on the uphill par 5 8th hole with a skyline green!



Second shot view:



Here's a view back down the entire hole from just left of the green:



Nice skyline view on the approach shot:



From the back of the green:



#9.  Long par 4 with water in play right on the 2nd shot.



Blue tee view:



Approach shot view:



From just short of the green:



From the hill over the green:



Back nine starts in the morning.

[Tags:]

Tags:

[Tags:]

Tags:

Call to undefined function theme_linktree()