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paul cowley

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...or 40 under for that matter? Enjoy their talent but leave our courses alone as far as length is concerned.
paul cowley...golf course architect/asgca

Matt Day

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Re: Why do we care if a Tour Player is 25 or 30 under par on a course?
« Reply #1 on: September 07, 2011, 07:53:39 PM »
people wrongly think that low scoring = easy and easy = not good


paul cowley

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Re: Why do we care if a Tour Player is 25 or 30 under par on a course?
« Reply #2 on: September 07, 2011, 08:04:24 PM »
Matt - I agree that's the perception but not the reality for the majority of golfers. All of us can appreciate the abilities of athletes in other major sports that are well beyond our own...why not the same standard for golf? And golf courses as a consequence?
« Last Edit: September 07, 2011, 08:09:23 PM by paul cowley »
paul cowley...golf course architect/asgca

Chip Gaskins

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Re: Why do we care if a Tour Player is 25 or 30 under par on a course?
« Reply #3 on: September 07, 2011, 08:38:45 PM »
i agree, who should cares if the pro shot a zillion under. 

no one stops playing basketball because Jordan dunks from the foul line do they?  and more importantly they don't think all of sudden the game is "too easy" or the court is "too easy"  most people suck at basketball but enjoy the pick up game at the gym.

no one stops playing tennis if Nadel hits a 130 MPH serve in the US Open do they?  and more importantly they don't think the game is any easier for them or that Arthur Ash stadium is too easy/fast...of course not.  most people struggle with their serve, but play in their weekly leagues.

since the late 50s (Oakland Hills or earlier) the USGA made it taboo to shot low on a golf course.  until then there simply wasn't too many folks going crazy low (low 60s) anywhere so it never matter, but then USGA made it a priority to really really protect par.  from that point forward hosting clubs drew some weird masochist enjoyment that their course wouldn't produce a low score/winning score.  that is simply crazy talk.  is Pebble bad because what Tiger (Gil Morgan) did, or is Augusta bad because of low scores it produces, of course not.

golf is a game (is that ok Behr?) and it should be enjoyed.  if making birdies (and with the pros, lots of them) is bad then game dies.

Patrick_Mucci

Re: Why do we care if a Tour Player is 25 or 30 under par on a course?
« Reply #4 on: September 07, 2011, 08:47:41 PM »
Paul,

From my perspective, not surprisingly, I disagree.

If I'm watching the best golfers in the world, I want to see them presented with a challenge commensurate with their abilities/game.

Scores of 25-30 under par for four rounds would indicate that the course didn't present a meaningful test, and I want to see their games tested, physically and mentally.

One of the things I've noticed is that the putting surfaces seem to be flatter and flatter.
It's rare that you see tremendous break and/or slope, so what kind of test are those greens providing, for putting, recovery and approach shots ?  Not much it would seem.

I realize, when I tune in, that I'm not just watching the best golfers in the world, I"m watching that cadre of the best golfers in the world who are playing at the top of their game, so, it's the best of the best.  Those that don't play their best, miss the cut and don't make it on TV.

When I began playing serious competitive golf I witnessed something that enlightened me in terms of local/regional tournaments versus National tournaments.

I was playing in the North-South Amateur at Pinehurst # 2, on the 18th hole, which was an uphill par 4 with a deep bunker on the right side of the fairway.  I tended to hit a draw that wasn't howitzer like in its trajectory, thus, that bunker was a feature I couldn't ignore.

Moss Beecroft, hit the ball on a higher trajectory and had about the same or perhaps 10 more yards distance than I did, and as such that bunker did NOT present the same dilema, he could essentially ignore it.  I was challenged by that bunker, he wasn't, and neither were other long drivers.

As I watched more and more nationally ranked golfers play the course, I quickly concluded that if I was going to be competitive I needed more distance and higher trajectory.

There was a fellow there named Mike Taylor who was really, really long.
His advantage was immense.
The par 4's were meaningfully shorter, as were the par 5's.
So, I quickly drew a distinction between the challenges we faced.

At the Mid-Amateur at Bellerive I watched a fellow named Malley, from California. hit the ball really long.
The challenge he faced was substantially diminished, compared to the one I faced.
 
Years later, Frank Hannigan and I were at the Mid-Amateur at the AAC and were discussing length off the tee.
Frank mentioned that all of the long ball hitters that he witnessed, hit the ball high, over the bunkers/features
Now this was long before anyone ever heard the words, "launch angle" or "spin rates"

The reason I bring this up is that I don't believe you can defend a course vis a vis distance.
All the pros hit it high and long, some are just longer than others.

So, having said all this, do I or will I enjoy watching the best golfers in the world using drivers and short irons to torch par ?

No, I don't think scores of 25-30 under are reflective of a balanced challenge.

By balanced I mean driving distance combined with driving accuracy.
Superior fairway wood, long iron, mid iron and short iron play.
Recovery and putting.

25-30 under par wouldn't seem to be a four round score that's reflective of a meaningful challenge.

I think golf courses today, that host PGA Tour events, have to bulk up on steroids, trick themselves up or surrender to 25-30 under par.

The ONLY salvation I can see is if Augusta comes out with a competition ball, the "Masters" ball.

Remember, in golf, with respect to the competitors, there is NO DEFENSE.  Each golfer must rely upon the golf course to defend itself and today, golf courses are all but incapable of providing that defense

End of rant :D

JESII

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Why do we care if a Tour Player is 25 or 30 under par on a course?
« Reply #5 on: September 07, 2011, 09:04:00 PM »

Remember, in golf, with respect to the competitors, there is NO DEFENSE.  Each golfer must rely upon the golf course to defend itself and today, golf courses are all but incapable of providing that defense

End of rant :D


B.S.

I went to Plainfield during Thursday morning of that week. Because there was the chance it would rain during the first round (which it did!) the early players played the ball up. Balls would bounce and run a bit (not a mile, but they weren't picking up mud!) but the Tour felt the right thing to do in the name of equity was to let everyone have the ball in their hand as opposed to risking the afternoon guys playing mudballs. PGA Tour Golf is about entertainment and low scores are more entertaining. The other disappointment is that the greens were barely 10 feet. This is a course whose greens provide an incredible challenge...a challenge incredibly nuetered by reduced green speeds in the name of fairness.

The guys shot 19 under for 3 rounds!!!


Chip Gaskins

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Re: Why do we care if a Tour Player is 25 or 30 under par on a course?
« Reply #6 on: September 07, 2011, 09:14:32 PM »
Pat

As we discuss at your fine club this spring, the only answer is the tournament ball, and the only ONLY place that can happen is in Augusta.  If Augusta were to unilaterally mandate the "Masters Ball" then the entire game would have a mechanism to start a dialogue to control things. They are the only institution in the game today that can pull it off.  If they say here are the parameters of the ball that will be played in our tournament, The Masters, then tell players have whatever manufacture you want product it, then we have positive movement.  What, are pros going to boycott the Masters, of course not, they will play a tennis ball if they have to.  Augusta National Golf Club is the one and only place golf ball change can happen.

Chip

Carl Johnson

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Re: Why do we care if a Tour Player is 25 or 30 under par on a course?
« Reply #7 on: September 07, 2011, 09:24:58 PM »
I don't, but I'm sure I'm in the minority.  My tour entertainment comes from watching player A vs. player B vs. player C, and so on.  I like the competition - golfer vs. golfer.  That's what I like to see.  To the extent that the course can add to that excitement, so much the better.  A tough course in relation to par can provide that excitement, but an easier course with respect to par can, too.  The Masters used to be a more exciting, entertaining TV event for me, as least as I recall, because coming down the stretch there were lots of opportunities for low scores (feathered friends), but not without risk.  I don't think I've seen that as much in recent years.  As far as tour entertainment goes, I really don't care what they do to the course itself.  I figure that unless you go around the course in 18 shots, the course has always wins.  If scores in relation to "under-par" are a concern, we can always redefine par, a purely artificial construct in any case, for the pro tour players and easily fix that problem.  It's already being done to some degree, i.e., par fives for members/masses become par fours for tour play.  Let's do more of that and also make more of the easy/driveable par fours into par threes (and even some threes into twos?).  Last weekend I even got interested at the end of otherwise rather dull tournament at TPC Boston when Simpson rallied to beat Reavie, but I can't tell you how far under par they finished 72.  It was the Simpson/Reavie thing.  As I said at the outset, I expect I'm in the minority on this one.
« Last Edit: September 07, 2011, 09:33:24 PM by Carl Johnson »

Patrick_Mucci

Re: Why do we care if a Tour Player is 25 or 30 under par on a course?
« Reply #8 on: September 07, 2011, 09:37:47 PM »
Carl,

Par isn't an artificial construct, it's a function of the spacial relationship of the architectural features.

The golfer's goal is to get from point "A" to point "B" in as few strokes as possible.

It's the architect's function to thwart that effort through the placement of architectural features, features that the architect intended the golfer to interface with, mentally and physically.

When the golfer is able to ignore those features their function becomes vestigial and the challenge of par diminished.

Jim,

25 under at Plainfield ?

Where's the challenge ?

Many criticized Baltusrol, many placed Plainfield above it, but, in terms of presenting a commensurate challenge, Baltusrol would seem to get it, whereas, perhaps due to land constraints, Plainfield can't (read distance)

JESII

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Why do we care if a Tour Player is 25 or 30 under par on a course?
« Reply #9 on: September 07, 2011, 09:42:55 PM »
You missed my point!

The played lift, clean and place for no apparent reason and they slowed the greens down to the point that above the hole was no penalty whatsoever. They neutered Plainfield!

Why should a single course make any decisions based on the PGA Tour results?

Peter Pallotta

Re: Why do we care if a Tour Player is 25 or 30 under par on a course?
« Reply #10 on: September 07, 2011, 09:50:21 PM »
Good posts.

Paul - I think one of the reasons some DO care is because golf is unique in having a scoring system relative to a concept/value such as "par"; and in golf's case it is a concept/value that, from at least the time of the great Bobby Jones on down, has meant something. Some hate to see, I think, that meaning and tradition go completely out the window.

Peter  
« Last Edit: September 07, 2011, 09:58:20 PM by PPallotta »

Tommy Williamsen

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Re: Why do we care if a Tour Player is 25 or 30 under par on a course?
« Reply #11 on: September 07, 2011, 09:50:43 PM »
Pat makes some great points.  I don't really enjoy watching players launch a drive hit a short iron to ten feet and make birdie, time after time.  My favorite holes are the par threes where they have to hit a long iron.  I just don't know what can be done outside of knee high rough, 520 yard par fours, and greens that undulate wildly.  I think we are stuck with what we got.
Where there is no love, put love; there you will find love.
St. John of the Cross

"Deep within your soul-space is a magnificent cathedral where you are sweet beyond telling." Rumi

Patrick_Mucci

Re: Why do we care if a Tour Player is 25 or 30 under par on a course?
« Reply #12 on: September 07, 2011, 10:06:27 PM »
You missed my point!

The played lift, clean and place for no apparent reason and they slowed the greens down to the point that above the hole was no penalty whatsoever. They neutered Plainfield!

Why should a single course make any decisions based on the PGA Tour results?

Why do you think my position is based solely on the play at Plainfield ?

Let me ask you this.

When does the game of golf on TV transition from "entertainment" to true competition


JESII

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Why do we care if a Tour Player is 25 or 30 under par on a course?
« Reply #13 on: September 07, 2011, 10:17:35 PM »
Pat,

It's competition from the beginning, just not the type of competition 99.9% of clubs should consider with respect to their own golf course decisions.

Tiger_Bernhardt

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Re: Why do we care if a Tour Player is 25 or 30 under par on a course?
« Reply #14 on: September 07, 2011, 10:22:41 PM »
nope I could care less. I like shotmaking

JESII

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Why do we care if a Tour Player is 25 or 30 under par on a course?
« Reply #15 on: September 07, 2011, 10:32:01 PM »
You missed my point!

The played lift, clean and place for no apparent reason and they slowed the greens down to the point that above the hole was no penalty whatsoever. They neutered Plainfield!

Why should a single course make any decisions based on the PGA Tour results?

Why do you think my position is based solely on the play at Plainfield ?

Let me ask you this.

When does the game of golf on TV transition from "entertainment" to true competition



Maybe because you used th word Plainfield three times in the three sentences you typed to me in response to my comments about...wait for it...Plainfield!


Quote
Jim,

25 under at Plainfield ?

Where's the challenge ?

Many criticized Baltusrol, many placed Plainfield above it, but, in terms of presenting a commensurate challenge, Baltusrol would seem to get it, whereas, perhaps due to land constraints, Plainfield can't (read distance)

Matt Kardash

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Why do we care if a Tour Player is 25 or 30 under par on a course?
« Reply #16 on: September 07, 2011, 10:39:34 PM »
people wrongly think that low scoring = easy and easy = not good



low scoring = easy, and easy = boring to watch
the interviewer asked beck how he felt "being the bob dylan of the 90's" and beck quitely responded "i actually feel more like the bon jovi of the 60's"

Peter Pallotta

Re: Why do we care if a Tour Player is 25 or 30 under par on a course?
« Reply #17 on: September 07, 2011, 10:40:48 PM »
Ah, I think Jim has you there Pat.

Lots of good posts from you lately, but that particular gambit was doomed from the start.  

And the one asking why Pine Hill isn't Pine Valley was also, shall we say, weak.  

No - I have never played Pine Valley, but have played Pine Hill 265 times. 

See - now you're making me lie.

Peter
« Last Edit: September 07, 2011, 10:42:19 PM by PPallotta »

Patrick_Mucci

Re: Why do we care if a Tour Player is 25 or 30 under par on a course?
« Reply #18 on: September 07, 2011, 10:50:27 PM »

Ah, I think Jim has you there Pat.

Not at all.

I NEVER mentioned Plainfield in my initial response.

The only reason I mentioned it in a subsequent response was because JIM introduced Plainfield into the discusson.


Lots of good posts from you lately, but that particular gambit was doomed from the start.  

And the one asking why Pine Hill isn't Pine Valley was also, shall we say, weak.  

Not at all.  My point in mentioning Pine Hill was to dispell the notion that designing a quality golf course on similar land was easy, as some had indicated it was..


No - I have never played Pine Valley, but have played Pine Hill 265 times. 

See - now you're making me lie.

Peter

Jim Nugent

Re: Why do we care if a Tour Player is 25 or 30 under par on a course?
« Reply #19 on: September 08, 2011, 12:04:34 AM »
I agree with Pat on the challenge/difficulty issue.  

How would a Masters ball work?  Would it simply not fly as far, or would it have other different qualities as well?  e.g. would the players control it as easily as they do the modern ball?    

ETA:  control is the wrong word.  Would the ball go as straight as the one now does?  Would the players have to change their swings and/or their clubs, to accommodate the Masters ball? 
« Last Edit: September 08, 2011, 01:14:20 AM by Jim Nugent »

Matt Day

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Re: Why do we care if a Tour Player is 25 or 30 under par on a course?
« Reply #20 on: September 08, 2011, 12:29:20 AM »
people wrongly think that low scoring = easy and easy = not good



low scoring = easy, and easy = boring to watch
I was talking about the perception of most golfers, not what the tv viewiing is like. They see their course torn apart by the elite and immediately want new tees and bunkers to toughen the place.
 
We held a pro am last year, the winner shot 60. I get phone calls the next day to see when we are adding more bunkers and new tees because the course is too easy. Its a municipal course doing 100,000 rounds per annum with one guy shooting 60.

Sean_A

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Re: Why do we care if a Tour Player is 25 or 30 under par on a course?
« Reply #21 on: September 08, 2011, 02:18:59 AM »
I freely admit that I am very unlikely to watch a tourny where guys go 25 under unless its the Open.  I wouldn't care if they went 60 under at TOC - I will still watch because its interesting.  That said, as one who believes the construct of par such as people believe it is important is hopelessly outdated and has been so for my entire lifetime.  I think the par heads would be much happier if there was a total revamp making most courses a par 68 or 69.  Same course mind you, but the so called standard of exellence being lowered.  The strange thing is why shoud nearly everybody care about the standard of excellence?  Its an attitude beyond my understanding.  Honestly, the idea of par may just be the single greatest element holding back architecture and hence the reason I could never get my head around people saying holes and courses are good for matchplay, but bad for medal.  It shouldn't be a surprise that so many wonderful holes and courses were created when the bogey system still existed.  The so called distance problem could easily be solved by a bi-furcation of standards between excellent AM/pros and club players - thus re-establishing bogey scores and lowering course par.  I tell you what, it sure beats listening to people constantly whinge about distance being a problem yet doing nothing about it. 

Ciao
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Peter Sayegh

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Re: Why do we care if a Tour Player is 25 or 30 under par on a course?
« Reply #22 on: September 08, 2011, 04:31:53 AM »
Do we?
It seems this sentiment gets steam when the world's BEST players have the audacity to effront one of the grand old darlings of architecture/esteem.

I think Carl and Tiger got this one right. I couldn't care less about the "number"  attached to a victory. The memorable shots and the competitiveness of most tour events are the most lasting impressions.
Great example is Stricker at this year's John Deere. Great course? Eh. But the up and down on 18 to win the tournament was compelling. I had to look up the winning score because it didn't matter. Two years hence, I'll forget that number but remember the execution and circumstances.

Patrick,
At the tour level, getting around in as few strokes as possible is NOT the goal. It's getting around in one fewer stroke than your competitors. Where's the challenge of playing Plainfield at -25? The challenge comes from the guy(s) at -23, -24.

paul cowley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Why do we care if a Tour Player is 25 or 30 under par on a course?
« Reply #23 on: September 08, 2011, 07:07:16 AM »
Par is just a number.

When Rodger Bannister broke the unthinkable 4 minute mile barrier we didn't lengthen the course to 5300'.
Every time we have a new home run record we don't move the outfield out....or move the hoop higher because of great scoring in basketball.

We can tinker with lowering course par for competition...or give the players a special ball as some suggest...or just let them go low.

People get excited when someone shoots below 60.

The same excitement would occur when someone finally shoots a competition 52...which will happen....until someone shoots a 51.

Lets quit destroying courses and the enjoyment of the game for the masses in an effort to accomodate the skill set of the elite few.
« Last Edit: September 08, 2011, 07:21:59 AM by paul cowley »
paul cowley...golf course architect/asgca

Tom Kelly

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Re: Why do we care if a Tour Player is 25 or 30 under par on a course?
« Reply #24 on: September 08, 2011, 07:18:13 AM »
Par although important to the game of golf as some have said is essentially an arbitrary number created so the average weekend golfers can have a competitive match against one another, it means diddly squat for the best players in the world. They don't have a handicap so what difference does it make to them? The game of golf is about going around the course in the lowest possible number of shots, that is what I want to see.

Yes we all like to see a challenge but the when tour officials are setting up courses purely to protect par and not with the idea to make the course interesting it becomes boring and detrimental to the game of golf.

Of the US Majors Augusta nearly always provides the most entertaining major to watch yet it also regularly is won with the lowest scoring total....coincidence?

Seeing players hit driver, wedge and a single putt may be boring but seeing them hit a big driver two foot off the fairway and being forced to hack the ball out sideways if worse. It seems that is all I see when I watch US golf, well that and 6 foot putts. It can't be entertaining for the kids who are the future of the game to watch some guy shot +1 and win. The sport is quickly becoming dull. I want to see the supreme ability these guys have and be in awe of it.

Gives the players options of angles, interesting driveable par 4's, short quirky par 3's and let the COMPETITION begin.
« Last Edit: September 08, 2011, 07:37:57 AM by Thomas Kelly »