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Mark Saltzman

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Valderrama GC, Spain (RTJ Sr.) - Pictures
« on: September 06, 2011, 03:42:00 PM »
I played Valderrama GC last year (for the bargain price of 330 euros + 30 euros more for cart, which I didn't take).  I was underwhelmed.

From my limited searching skills, I could find very little about Valderrama on GCA.com.

What do the members of this esteemed board think of the golf course?

A few pictures for your viewing pleasure:

Clubhouse






Hole 4, Par 5






Hole 6, Par 3




Hole 7, Par 4 - Approach to short P4





Hole 10, Par 4





Hole 11, Par 5





Hole 17, Par 5









Hole 18, Par 4





« Last Edit: September 07, 2011, 10:16:52 AM by Mark Saltzman »

Mark Saltzman

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Re: Valderrama GC, Spain - Pictures
« Reply #1 on: September 06, 2011, 04:09:31 PM »
Thanks for the pics, Mark.  Did you manage to get to Valencia and El Saler on your travels to Spain?

Brian,

I did and I much preferred El Saler to Valderrama.  The whole feel to the place was so much more relaxed and fun.  At Valderrama I felt like they were doing me a favor to let me pay a fortune to play the course on a day where there was no one there because it was about 44C.

I also played Finca Cortesin and PGA Catalunya.

Adam Lawrence

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Re: Valderrama GC, Spain - Pictures
« Reply #2 on: September 06, 2011, 04:30:44 PM »
Valderrama isn't my ideal golf course, but I'm a bit surprised to hear of an unwelcoming attitude there. It is a private club (unlike El Saler,  for example, which is a resort of a fashion), but once you get though the gates I have always found the people there to be hugely kind and charming. Has Derek Brown left? He struck me as one of the best golf club managers I have come across, always out and talking to members and guests - --a true hospitality professional
Adam Lawrence

Editor, Golf Course Architecture
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Author, 'More Enduring Than Brass: a biography of Harry Colt' (forthcoming).

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Steve Okula

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Re: Valderrama GC, Spain - Pictures
« Reply #3 on: September 06, 2011, 04:45:36 PM »
There are a thousand reasons to love Andalucia. I lived there for three years from '91-'94, and the climate, Mediterranean beaches, fiestas, wine, cuisine,  history, architecture, landscape, language and seņoritas all came together to create the most enjoyable experience. So what if they don't have a Doak course (no disrespect to Tom, who would be a welcome addition to Iberian golf).

From the photos, Valderrama hasn't changed since I was last there to see the Rdyer Cup in '97. A solid if not brilliant course, with an intelligent routing and variation in holes. I played it twice, rode it with the owner Jaime Patiņo once, and spectated at a couple of pro tournaments. If it means anything, fourteen years later I still clearly recall every hole.

Valderrama conditioning sets the bar for European golf, and there are some terrific views of Gibraltar and the Med. I adore the cork oaks, which bring to mind the fine bottles of Rioja. Don't leave without trying the pata negra cured ham.

For what it's worth, I also played El Saler, and while the links holes along the Med coast are a novelty, the inland holes, about half the course, are most forgettable, and the conditioning, when I was there in 2000, was disappointing. Valencia is a nice enough town and region, but it lacks the grace and sparkle of Andalucia.

Of course, that's only one man's opinion, and I may be wrong, but I doubt it.  

The small wheel turns by the fire and rod,
the big wheel turns by the grace of God.

Anthony_Nysse

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Re: Valderrama GC, Spain - Pictures
« Reply #4 on: September 06, 2011, 04:59:06 PM »
Steve,
  Are those bentgrass approaches and greens, bermudagrass fwys and roughs?
Anthony J. Nysse
Director of Golf Courses & Grounds
Apogee Club
Hobe Sound, FL

Steve Okula

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Re: Valderrama GC, Spain - Pictures
« Reply #5 on: September 06, 2011, 05:28:06 PM »
Steve,
  Are those bentgrass approaches and greens, bermudagrass fwys and roughs?

Pretty much, yeah, but mind you, I haven't been there since the last century. The tees back then were 419 bermuda as well, but from these photos the mower stripes on the tees suggest they're changed to another species (unless they didn't).

Back then, the coventional wisdom in that part of Spain was to have bent greens and bermuda fairways, and to prevent encroachment of the bermuda into the bent they would put 5-10m ryegrass buffer zones around the greens. Mostly this failed, as every summer the ryegrass burned out and left bare ground with scattered patches of rye and bermuda in that crucial chipping area close to the green. Being a most tenacious customer, the bermuda would find a way to contaminate the greens anyway.  A very few high maintenance clubs, especially Valderrama, had the resources to make this approach work. Again, be aware this is a dinosaur talking - I'm sure times have changed and I don't know what exactly they're doing today.  
« Last Edit: September 06, 2011, 05:31:32 PM by Steve Okula »
The small wheel turns by the fire and rod,
the big wheel turns by the grace of God.

Frank M

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Re: Valderrama GC, Spain - Pictures
« Reply #6 on: September 06, 2011, 06:32:22 PM »
I haven't played it, but do the trees encroach on play often? It seems they are definitely an obstacle in some of these pics.

Mark Saltzman

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Re: Valderrama GC, Spain - Pictures
« Reply #7 on: September 06, 2011, 06:55:15 PM »
I haven't played it, but do the trees encroach on play often? It seems they are definitely an obstacle in some of these pics.

Yes, trees definitely encroach on some holes, though I have a feeling that was by design.  Encroaching trees are definitely a big part of the strategy on holes like 1, 2, 7 an 18.  I wasn't a big fan of how one had to interact with them, especially on 1 and 2, but in general the corridors are wide enough.

Bill_McBride

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Re: Valderrama GC, Spain - Pictures
« Reply #8 on: September 06, 2011, 07:23:03 PM »
There was a recent thread about how to take the driver out of the hands of the world's best players.

I immediately remembered Valderrama's 17th hole, where Seve had deep rough grown across the fairway, limiting tee balls to about 280 yards on this par 5.   Visualize British Open knee length fescue across this fairway!

« Last Edit: September 06, 2011, 09:38:54 PM by Bill_McBride »

Sam Morrow

Re: Valderrama GC, Spain - Pictures
« Reply #9 on: September 06, 2011, 08:13:22 PM »
Looks just like the Texas Hill Country.

Bill_McBride

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Re: Valderrama GC, Spain - Pictures
« Reply #10 on: September 06, 2011, 09:39:58 PM »
Looks just like the Texas Hill Country.

Except not on fire....

Alfonso Erhardt

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Re: Valderrama GC, Spain - Pictures
« Reply #11 on: September 07, 2011, 08:05:51 AM »
Tree growth has been a serious problem as the course has become much more cramped than it was some years ago. The course is terribly tight and driver is can only be used in 5-6 holes. Kyle Philips assisted the club a couple of years ago in doing some changes to enhance playability, but I am not sure to what extent they have been implemented.

Maintenance is still excellent and still sets the standard in Spain, although I have heard that Finca Cortesin is also quite impressive (the course gets worse reviews than its maintenance). As Steve says, some of the better courses such as Sotogrande (the old course), which had moved from bermuda to bentgrass on fairways are switching the whole course back again to bermuda in 2012-2013. Its just too hot in the summer in this part of Spain and fairways are always soaked.

I also find it strange that Mark did not find it welcome, as people are usually very nice. However, the club has recently had (is still having) a serious internal shuffle (Derek is no longer there) and that could explain the feeling. I was there this summer and the situation was quite normal.

About El Saler, since Sept'10 all the greenkeeping has been outsourced to the green section of the Spanish Golf Federation which is working on restoring the course to its original state: wider, harder fairways, no rough between fairway and bushes and short grass around greens. The last time I was there (June 2011), the course was in very good shape and greens were unusually fast.

I find it interesting that Steve does not like the inland holes. I think some of the best holes in the course are inland: 2, 3, 10 and 13, for example are all very good.

Regards,


Ryan Farrow

Re: Valderrama GC, Spain - Pictures
« Reply #12 on: September 07, 2011, 08:36:18 AM »
What is going on with those bunkers?

Keith Phillips

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Re: Valderrama GC, Spain - Pictures
« Reply #13 on: September 07, 2011, 08:46:57 AM »
Have only played Valderrama once (a decade ago) but I found the course to be very enjoyable - maybe not top 100 but very good - the setting is gorgeous and the conditioning was by far the best I'd seen in Europe - we also played San Roque and Sotogrande on that trip, and Valderrama was at a different level - as Steve indicated, Andalucia is a very special place to visit, with a great blend of sporting activities, weather, scenery and culture.

Anthony_Nysse

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Re: Valderrama GC, Spain - Pictures
« Reply #14 on: September 07, 2011, 08:48:49 AM »
Steve,
  Thanks for the info. It certainly appears to be bentgrass apps and greens, with 419 tees, just burned in because of their size and shape. The rough also appears stripes because of the same mowing patterns.
  I, too, am a little curious as to what is going on with the bunkering. Does the European tour no longer play there every year?
Anthony J. Nysse
Director of Golf Courses & Grounds
Apogee Club
Hobe Sound, FL

Mark Saltzman

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Re: Valderrama GC, Spain - Pictures
« Reply #15 on: September 07, 2011, 10:15:52 AM »

About El Saler, since Sept'10 all the greenkeeping has been outsourced to the green section of the Spanish Golf Federation which is working on restoring the course to its original state: wider, harder fairways, no rough between fairway and bushes and short grass around greens. The last time I was there (June 2011), the course was in very good shape and greens were unusually fast.

I find it interesting that Steve does not like the inland holes. I think some of the best holes in the course are inland: 2, 3, 10 and 13, for example are all very good.


I played El Saler in June '10.  The regular complaint I had heard was that the conditioning was not on par with the courses in the Andalucia region, but I must have got lucky as the course was in perfect shape.  

I also quite enjoyed the inland holes.  My round at El Saler was one of only a few where I got so engrossed in my conversations with my playing partners that the golf course took a back seat.  FWIW, I really enjoyed holes 1, 2, 3 and 15 from the inland bunch.  16, as I recall, was very dull.  I will post the few pictures I have of El Saler when I get a chance.

Is there no further discussion on Valderrama?  I am amazed at how few participants here seem to have played it.  A perfect example of how people on this DG seek out courses they think they will enjoy and skip those that are not in sync with their own tastes.

Bill_McBride

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Re: Valderrama GC, Spain - Pictures
« Reply #16 on: September 07, 2011, 10:19:04 AM »

About El Saler, since Sept'10 all the greenkeeping has been outsourced to the green section of the Spanish Golf Federation which is working on restoring the course to its original state: wider, harder fairways, no rough between fairway and bushes and short grass around greens. The last time I was there (June 2011), the course was in very good shape and greens were unusually fast.

I find it interesting that Steve does not like the inland holes. I think some of the best holes in the course are inland: 2, 3, 10 and 13, for example are all very good.


I played El Saler in June '10.  The regular complaint I had heard was that the conditioning was not on par with the courses in the Andalucia region, but I must have got lucky as the course was in perfect shape.  

I also quite enjoyed the inland holes.  My round at El Saler was one of only a few where I got so engrossed in my conversations with my playing partners that the golf course took a back seat.  FWIW, I really enjoyed holes 1, 2, 3 and 15 from the inland bunch.  16, as I recall, was very dull.  I will post the few pictures I have of El Saler when I get a chance.

Is there no further discussion on Valderrama?  I am amazed at how few participants here seem to have played it.  A perfect example of how people on this DG seek out courses they think they will enjoy and skip those that are not in sync with their own tastes.

Mark, the Americans on this site go to Scotland, Ireland, England or Bandon for travelling golf.

The Brits go to Portugal or America.   ;D

Few go to Spain.

Alfonso Erhardt

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Re: Valderrama GC, Spain (RTJ Sr.) - Pictures
« Reply #17 on: September 07, 2011, 11:03:41 AM »
I agree with Bill in that not that many Americans go to Andalucia to play golf. Just too far away and value for money is not that good.

Brits do, however, and in very large numbers. So do Swedes and Germans.


Mark_Rowlinson

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Re: Valderrama GC, Spain (RTJ Sr.) - Pictures
« Reply #18 on: September 07, 2011, 11:23:56 AM »
My wife and I have been to Andalucia but not to play golf. We've stayed inland and enjoyed Granada, Seville, Cordoba (especially) and endless miles of empty roads through some of the wonderful national parks. Good sherries and montillas (far better than they were 20 years ago) - in fact I have some unfiltered fino in the fridge at this moment. Sadly, the table wines of Andalucia still have some catching up to do, but as standards continue to rise throughout Spain I have no doubt that they will come good in time.

I used to get to sing in Andalucia quite a bit, but with the economic scene that is now a thing of the past. So sad! I really loved that part of Spain.

Terry Lavin

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Re: Valderrama GC, Spain (RTJ Sr.) - Pictures
« Reply #19 on: September 07, 2011, 12:46:10 PM »
I went to the Ryder Cup back in the 90's and was just awestruck by the Costa del Sol, despite the fact that it rained like crazy that week, prompting me to wonder whether "Costa del Uvia" would have been more correct.  In any event, the course was sort of a gently rolling, underwhelming affair, with a Harbourtown feel caused by the claustrophobic effect of the innumerable cork trees on the property.  Actually, now that I think about it, the branches of the cork trees were incredibly comfortable, to the point that there were hundreds of intrepid fans that climbed trees in search of a better view of the proceedings, a feat which is pretty difficult at any Ryder Cup.

So, I'd say "yes" to Marbella, Andalucia and Seville (which is a few hours away) and I'd surely try to play Valderrama if I had the chance, but not for the architecture, that's for sure.
Nobody ever went broke underestimating the intelligence of the American people.  H.L. Mencken

Niall C

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Re: Valderrama GC, Spain (RTJ Sr.) - Pictures
« Reply #20 on: September 07, 2011, 01:27:41 PM »
My regular golf holiday every year is to this area of Spain and while it's not as good as good as Portugal, golf wise it makes up for it in other ways. I've played Valderramma once a few years ago and throughly enjoyed the experience although at what I remember to be a big cost its not one I would hurry to repeat.

What I remember about the course is that the par 3's were solid/good, the par 4's were very good/great and the par 5's were rubbish particularly the awful 17th.

I agree with Adams commentas on Derek Brown, very hospitable and managed to get us on the nine hole par 3 course which was excellent fun.

Niall

Adrian_Stiff

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Re: Valderrama GC, Spain (RTJ Sr.) - Pictures
« Reply #21 on: September 07, 2011, 02:12:03 PM »
Derek is a great ambassador for the club. Conditioing is great at Valderamma, I guess that covers up a lot of holes in some minds. Stripped down its hard for me to see this as the number 1 course in Europe. I'd score the holes more like this if you ignore the condition.
7/10 5/10 5/10 10/10 8/10 9/10 6/10 6/10 (I could see how someone would rate this higher) 6/10
9/10 8/10 8/10 7/10 6/10 9/10 7/10 7/10 7/10 6/10

For me there are a lot of average holes only 4 5 and 6 on the front nine have a bit of WOW. The quality of the surfaces make up a lot in the experience though and if thats important to you, you will love it lots and most will give this big ticks.

It is a must play, the whole of Andalucia does not have great land for golf but it does have great weather and great lifestyle, I try and live down there in the winter, golf is the way of life.
A combination of whats good for golf and good for turf.
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Mark_Rowlinson

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Re: Valderrama GC, Spain (RTJ Sr.) - Pictures
« Reply #22 on: September 07, 2011, 02:38:23 PM »
I note that Steve Okula's opinion of Valencia as a city is a little muted. I have to say that I've been there for musical reasons a number of times. The new concert halls built in the bed of the diverted river are wonderful. Great acoustics, receptive audiences and welcoming, professional staff. I love the cathedral with its alabaster tower giving an extraordinary light and the last time I was there they were still singing liturgical plainsong. There are several fine churches, old gate towers and a beautiful old bridge. The market is stupendous. Given local advice you can eat superbly, and I don't just mean paella, the local speciality which should normally have snails, chicken and rabbit and no fish at all. You can drive through it and round it better than most Spanish cities of comparable size and the airport is comfortably close to the city. But, above all, it is a working city. It's full of Spaniards, not full of tourists. It's off the tourist track.

As an aside, I remember doing a concert up the coast from Valencia at Castellon de la Plana. (Is that where Sergio comes from?) It was in an old theatre/opera house and the janitor smoked what I can only describe as a coal-fired cigar. The concert went well enough. The audience was generous in its applause. After the concert the conductor, Gunther Herbig, suggested we went for a swift drink before returning to Valencia. There appeared to be a bar opposite the stage door. We went in, along with Gunther's wife. It was not a bar. It was a strip club. We went dry that evening!

JC Jones

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Re: Valderrama GC, Spain (RTJ Sr.) - Pictures
« Reply #23 on: September 07, 2011, 05:09:33 PM »
I'll also throw in my endorsement of the south of Span.  It has been 12 years since I've been there but I really enjoyed my time in Malaga, Marbella, Gibraltar and Granada.  The Alhambra remains one of the greatest things I've seen in my life and going to Valderrama was an amazing experience.
I get it, you are mad at the world because you are an adult caddie and few people take you seriously.

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I know plenty of courses that are in the red, and they are killing it.

Mike Nuzzo

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Re: Valderrama GC, Spain - Pictures
« Reply #24 on: September 07, 2011, 07:21:11 PM »
What is going on with those bunkers?

Faux rustic on a highly manicured course (I think those words are opposites)
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