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Jay Flemma

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So what does "quirky" mean and what courses are good examples?
« on: September 06, 2011, 06:31:53 PM »
We have a lively discussion brewing over on the St. George's thread on what quirky means, but the topic should have its own thread.  When is a course quirky and when, instead, is it old school and promoting classic architecture?  What courses or holes are examples of each?

The St. G's thread is here:

http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,49582.0.html
Mackenzie, MacRayBanks, Maxwell, Doak, Dye, Strantz. @JayGolfUSA, GNN Radio Host of Jay's Plays www.cybergolf.com/writerscorner

Sean_A

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Re: So what does "quirky" mean and what courses are good examples?
« Reply #1 on: September 06, 2011, 06:47:31 PM »
Jay

Its definitely a sign of the times when front to back greens, centreline mounding/hollows/bunkers, blind shots, cross bunkers and TRUE punchbowl greens are considered quirky.  That said, holes like Pit and Gate are a bit funky. 

Ciao
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Patrick_Mucci

Re: So what does "quirky" mean and what courses are good examples?
« Reply #2 on: September 06, 2011, 06:55:00 PM »
Jay,

Like Obscenity, you may not be able to define it, but, you'll know it when you see it.

Would you say that St Georges has a good deal of "Quirk" in it ?

I think it's very unusual, but, challenging and fun to play.

Jay Flemma

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Re: So what does "quirky" mean and what courses are good examples?
« Reply #3 on: September 06, 2011, 07:03:08 PM »
Pat, you need to see my reply the St. G's thread - I definitely DO NOT think we know it when we see it.  I think people have different definitions.  You know when you see a picture of a woman's exposed and opened vulva, (and it's not a medical picture and she's smiling lasciviously) that's pornography...but why is a severe false front quirky?  I don't think it should be or is.   Why are severely canted fairways quirky?  Should they be?  I don't agree...When does something go from "really creative" or "classic golden age architecture" to "quirky?"  I thikn just summing u[ St. G's as quirky does it a disservice. Maybe the 9th green at Thendara is quirky, but the extreme nature of that green and it's uniqueness and perceived unfairness take it squarely out of the realm of classic to quirky...but what else?  Where else?
Mackenzie, MacRayBanks, Maxwell, Doak, Dye, Strantz. @JayGolfUSA, GNN Radio Host of Jay's Plays www.cybergolf.com/writerscorner

Keith OHalloran

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Re: So what does "quirky" mean and what courses are good examples?
« Reply #4 on: September 06, 2011, 07:08:36 PM »
Jay,
 I don't think that false fronts should be considered quirk, but I am also not sure that St George's is called quirky because of false fronts. You start with a bling drive on 3, you have a blind drive on 4, hidden bunkers on 4, a green complex on 6 that hides many bunkers, a drive on 8 that you cant see the green, or even the optimal line etc. Again, I love St George's, and I love its "quirk" but it is a course that you would benefit from playing more than once, maybe that is my definition of quirk?

Jay Flemma

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Re: So what does "quirky" mean and what courses are good examples?
« Reply #5 on: September 06, 2011, 07:11:38 PM »
Okay fair enough - but 1) do blind shots mean quirk? and 2) does the word quirk still connote something "less than perfect or acceptable?"  What I mean is by saying a course is quirky do we risk pigeon-holing it?
Mackenzie, MacRayBanks, Maxwell, Doak, Dye, Strantz. @JayGolfUSA, GNN Radio Host of Jay's Plays www.cybergolf.com/writerscorner

Bill_McBride

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Re: So what does "quirky" mean and what courses are good examples?
« Reply #6 on: September 06, 2011, 07:13:56 PM »
I'm guessing you haven't been to Painswick yet.

Keith OHalloran

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Re: So what does "quirky" mean and what courses are good examples?
« Reply #7 on: September 06, 2011, 07:17:59 PM »
Jay,
I do think that in many circles, using the word quirk is not a glowing endorsement. However the talk on GCA in rarely, if ever, on par with what you hear on the first tee of a course. I think that on this thread quirk is not a terrible thing.
And, if a course has several blind shots, I usually think of it as quirky.

Jay Flemma

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Re: So what does "quirky" mean and what courses are good examples?
« Reply #8 on: September 06, 2011, 07:22:00 PM »
It's only blind once:)  I'd love to see Painswick sometime:)  What else is quirky?
Mackenzie, MacRayBanks, Maxwell, Doak, Dye, Strantz. @JayGolfUSA, GNN Radio Host of Jay's Plays www.cybergolf.com/writerscorner

Bill_McBride

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Re: So what does "quirky" mean and what courses are good examples?
« Reply #9 on: September 06, 2011, 07:28:32 PM »
It's only blind once:)  I'd love to see Painswick sometime :)  What else is quirky?

Elie, with its blind tee shots and marker posts on short par 4s (4 IIRC), 16 par 4s and two par 3s, and a German U-boat periscope in the starter's hut to be sure the fairway beyond the ridge is clear.

I would say that 90% of quirk I've seen is across the pond.

Patrick_Mucci

Re: So what does "quirky" mean and what courses are good examples?
« Reply #10 on: September 06, 2011, 07:34:56 PM »

Pat, you need to see my reply the St. G's thread - I definitely DO NOT think we know it when we see it.  I think people have different definitions.  You know when you see a picture of a woman's exposed and opened vulva, (and it's not a medical picture and she's smiling lasciviously) that's pornography...

Says whom ?
That's one of my favorite looks.


but why is a severe false front quirky?  I don't think it should be or is.   Why are severely canted fairways quirky?  Should they be?  I don't agree...


The answer lies in "frequency" or norms.

Because you don't see many severe false fronts, that feature is rare and when it's rare, it could be deemed as "quirky"


When does something go from "really creative" or "classic golden age architecture" to "quirky?"

Again, I think it's a matter of "frequency".

When something becomes common it loses it's unique quality.


I thikn just summing u[ St. G's as quirky does it a disservice.

I don't think so, I just think the term "quirky" signifies unique, unusual, rare architectural features, and nothing negative
"Goofy" is negative.


Maybe the 9th green at Thendara is quirky, but the extreme nature of that green and it's uniqueness and perceived unfairness take it squarely out of the realm of classic to quirky...but what else?  Where else?

I think there's a lot of quirk in NGLA.
I think that's why some are so taken back by it, it's not what they were expecting.

The first hole, which I love, can destroy a good number of rounds right out of the box, so some, not willing to blame themselves for not understanding the architecture or not willing to blame their high score on their poor play, take it out on the hole, labeling it as "gimmickie" or "Quirky"

« Last Edit: September 07, 2011, 11:12:05 PM by Patrick_Mucci »

Jay Flemma

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Re: So what does "quirky" mean and what courses are good examples?
« Reply #11 on: September 06, 2011, 07:48:13 PM »
Many great golfers - in fact many great putters have four-putted one at NGLA.  I three-putted from 70 feet the first time I was there...

Maybe frequency of unusual or severe things is quirk.  Do you think that other people view quirk as a negative?  Mainstream golfers for example?  What more can we do to get people to accept quirk as cool?
Mackenzie, MacRayBanks, Maxwell, Doak, Dye, Strantz. @JayGolfUSA, GNN Radio Host of Jay's Plays www.cybergolf.com/writerscorner

Patrick_Mucci

Re: So what does "quirky" mean and what courses are good examples?
« Reply #12 on: September 06, 2011, 09:02:54 PM »
Jay,

Yes, I believe that there's an element, a sector of golfers that view "quirk" as a negative.

There's also an element, a sector of golfers that view difficulty as equating to great architecture.

You'll get diverse views from the broad spectrum of golfers.

You just have to ask yourself, are they amongst the cognoscente ;D

Simon Holt

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Re: So what does "quirky" mean and what courses are good examples?
« Reply #13 on: September 07, 2011, 04:01:23 AM »
Bill,

That is not a German U-Boat periscope!!  We are in Scotland!  It came from HMS Excalibur!

Elie is a great course....must get back soon.

S
2011 highlights- Royal Aberdeen, Loch Lomond, Moray Old, NGLA (always a pleasure), Muirfield Village, Saucon Valley, watching the new holes coming along at The Renaissance Club.

Phil McDade

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Re: So what does "quirky" mean and what courses are good examples?
« Reply #14 on: September 07, 2011, 09:31:14 AM »
Jay:

To me, quirk means unconventional, or something you're unlikely to find at a typical golf course (meaning, an average muni or daily fee course). So, what does that mean? I'd argue some or alot of the following:

-- Blind tee shots or approach shots into greens (meaning, the player can't see the result of his shot). One or two per round is not enough to make a course quirky; a half-dozen is close, and 9 or 10 per round probably makes it quirky. Machrie, on the island of Islay in Scotland, is probably the definition of this (see James Finegan's book on golf courses in Scotland).

-- Unconventional routing or hole arrangements. Elie is well-known for having 16 par 4s; while the holes themselves may not necessarily be quirky, the totality of that many par 4s represents a quirky approach to arranging holes. Lawsonia, with its stretch of holes from 9-14 that goes (in terms of par) 5-3-5-3-5-3, is awfully quirky for an American course (although I wouldn't necessarily describe any of the individual holes as quirky; really good -- yes, but not quirky).

-- Half-par holes are sometimes viewed as quirky, and a course with a lot of them probably could be characterized as quirky. See this thread on Madison WI's Blackhawk CC, about as quirky of a traditional parkland course as you'll find: http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,41775.0.html The Balcomie course at Crail is another course I'd characterize as quirky under this category.

-- The use of strange land-forms or man-made artifacts/features in the design of the hole probably defines quirky for many; see the Pit at North Berwick, with its approach shot over an old stone wall, or the old barricade/fortress incorporated at Painswick. Cullen, on the northeastern coast of Scotland west of Fraserburgh and east of Nairn, routes its course around enormous old sea stacks, and they come into play on several holes. http://www.cullengolfclub.co.uk/index.htm

 -- Crossing holes probably meets the definition of quirk; far more examples in the UK, such as Stonehaven, which has one hole that crosses two fairways during its journey. Often found in routings confined to a small amount of space, and thus the layout maximizes the land by the use of crossing fairways. Sean Arble's picture threads of the UK's lesser-known courses often highlight crossing holes.

-- I think shared fairways represent a kind of quirk -- Wild Horse in Nebraska has a modern example on the front nine, and they are often found in the UK.

Things that to me don't really represent quirk: dramatic internal green contours (everyone's doing them these days); false fronts; front-to-back tilted greens; back-to-back holes with the same par (excluding par 4s; see the 5-5 finish at Baltusrol Lower or PacDunes 3-3 strertch).

 

Jay Flemma

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Re: So what does "quirky" mean and what courses are good examples?
« Reply #15 on: September 07, 2011, 10:50:52 AM »
Phil, most of things look like "good architecture" to me.
Mackenzie, MacRayBanks, Maxwell, Doak, Dye, Strantz. @JayGolfUSA, GNN Radio Host of Jay's Plays www.cybergolf.com/writerscorner

Phil McDade

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Re: So what does "quirky" mean and what courses are good examples?
« Reply #16 on: September 07, 2011, 12:00:54 PM »
Phil, most of things look like "good architecture" to me.

Jay:

Me. too! But, one's man's quirk-filled course that speaks of good architecture is downright goofy to others. Stonehaven is about as quirky a course as I've encountered, and Finegan in his book recounts a conversation with a Scottish golfer who was utterly dismissive of it, and there are those on this board who have characterized Stonehaven as clown's mouth golf. As in candor, it does approach that in some respects. But, I have a high tolerance for quirk, as I'm guessing most others on this board do as well.

David Harshbarger

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Re: So what does "quirky" mean and what courses are good examples?
« Reply #17 on: September 07, 2011, 06:36:21 PM »
Using St George's as a model, I'd define quirk in a course as the combination of:

1) consistent application of micro-features to define the key personality traits of holes
2) the variety of such micro-features across the set of holes
3) the amplitude of the micro-features from subtle to bold
4) the micro-features define play

At St George's you see this with

2 the bunkering littered through the fairway
3 the long downhill approach
4 the alps tee shot then the mounding hiding the deep rectangular bunker around the green
5 the mounding left and right on the fairway
7 the long downhill 3 with the cross bunker at the base of the hill and the deep bunkers back
8 the mounds in the green
10 the plateau fairway with the drop shot approach to a runaway green hard against a 30 foot drop
13 the plateau fairway with the long approach down a frozen wave and back up to a deceptively far green
16 the short par 4 dogleg protected by the giant tree and the shared bunkers/mounds long
17 the short, vicious 3 with the treacherous false front green and dual fronting bunkers over a yawning depression
18 the shared bunkers/mounds and tee shot perilously close to 17 tee ending in the multi tier green with insane side bunkers

Throughout the course there are micro-features that aren't repeated, the bunkering at 2 and 4, or are reused differently, the elevation drops at 3, 7, 10, 13. 

The other thing you see at St George's is the amplitude of the features, or their maybe the bold self-assuredness they exude.  The big mounds in the green at 8 are unapologetic. The bunkering at 4 is unabashedly geometric, including the tail back right.  The string of bunkers and mounds berween 16 and 18 are clearly unnatural, but just as clearly demand your attention in defining the course.

Finally, the micro-features need to be in play, not just window-dressing.  Even less bold courses can be filled with quirk when they have false greens, visual deceptions, non back-front greens, etc, esp. When the features are beguiling.

Dave
The trouble with modern equipment and distance—and I don't see anyone pointing this out—is that it robs from the player's experience. - Mickey Wright

Bill_McBride

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Re: So what does "quirky" mean and what courses are good examples?
« Reply #18 on: September 07, 2011, 07:27:44 PM »
Bill,

That is not a German U-Boat periscope!!  We are in Scotland!  It came from HMS Excalibur!

Elie is a great course....must get back soon.

S

Simon, it's a better story my way!

Jay Flemma

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Re: So what does "quirky" mean and what courses are good examples?
« Reply #19 on: September 08, 2011, 12:30:49 PM »
David - that's pretty good analysis!  Are you a member? Or a local?
Mackenzie, MacRayBanks, Maxwell, Doak, Dye, Strantz. @JayGolfUSA, GNN Radio Host of Jay's Plays www.cybergolf.com/writerscorner

David Harshbarger

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Re: So what does "quirky" mean and what courses are good examples?
« Reply #20 on: September 08, 2011, 03:20:02 PM »
Jay,

Neither a member or a local, but thanks to member Dave F. had a great round there early this summer.  My recollection of the course is a testament to its quality and the perspicacity of my playing partners :)

Dave
The trouble with modern equipment and distance—and I don't see anyone pointing this out—is that it robs from the player's experience. - Mickey Wright

Dave Falkner

Re: So what does "quirky" mean and what courses are good examples?
« Reply #21 on: September 09, 2011, 10:39:59 AM »
Dave

once I looked up persipacity I realized you were talking about Mike and Tim

Jay Im a member at St Georges and the first few times I played it I couldnt understand why the place wasnt more well known
but then again I joined after Gil and Adam had done their thing

I figure that a lot of folks look at 6200 and dismiss the course out of hand  which is a huge mistake

now if we could only figure out how to get rid of that fence next to the 17th tee box

Jay Flemma

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Re: So what does "quirky" mean and what courses are good examples?
« Reply #22 on: September 09, 2011, 06:34:21 PM »
The best way to do that would nbe to teach people to hit the ball straight all the time:):)
Mackenzie, MacRayBanks, Maxwell, Doak, Dye, Strantz. @JayGolfUSA, GNN Radio Host of Jay's Plays www.cybergolf.com/writerscorner

Dave Falkner

Re: So what does "quirky" mean and what courses are good examples?
« Reply #23 on: September 13, 2011, 11:56:54 AM »
Actuallu jay since St Georges is all about angles  the best angle for the 2nd shot on 18 is from the left side  which requires one to hit their drive over the fence.   Kind of like the road hole at TOC   being on the left side significantly shortens the 2nd shot

Jay Flemma

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Re: So what does "quirky" mean and what courses are good examples?
« Reply #24 on: September 13, 2011, 02:17:53 PM »
Or you could hit a good draw ;D
Mackenzie, MacRayBanks, Maxwell, Doak, Dye, Strantz. @JayGolfUSA, GNN Radio Host of Jay's Plays www.cybergolf.com/writerscorner

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