RTJ Jr.....Barely Mentioned

[Tim_Weiman]

If asked to identify a "name" architect who seems to get absolutely no ink at GCA, one would have to nominate Robert Trent Jones, Jr.

Take a look at Ron Whitten's data and you will see RTJ Jr has done quite a lot of work while flying well below our radar screen.

Why is that?

Does he fall into the category of having done nothing interesting, either positive or negative?

Is he just a business and not an artistic success?

Has he been up to anything lately?

[Tom Doak]

I'll mention him.  We just found out last week that he's been hired to do the project at Archerfield in Scotland, between Muirfield and North Berwick, that we were signed up to do a couple of years back.

I hope he does better with it than our successors did with Old Head.

[Ben Cowan-Dewar]

I have always liked the Prince course, Sugarloaf and Desert Dunes, not much else has stood out.

But those three were all really fun and the Prince stood out as great.

I guess that is why he is not discussed.  Also not a lot of big private projects, which get a lot of play here.

[Scott_Burroughs]

You're right, not much is said about the 3rd, lesser known golf-related Robert T. Jones.  He actually has a course rated higher (Princeville Prince) than any of his brother's, who's more famous.  I've played it and the other RTJ, Jr. at Princeville (Makai) and enjoyed them both.   The Prince course, still rated the best in Hawaii (by the mag rankings), is truly spectacular, with a few so-so holes.   The Makai course used to host an LPGA event.  Another of his designs gets on TV for a week every year at the Gand Slam of Golf (Poipu Bay), though it's gotten less than stellar reviews here.  His Highland Springs course in Springfield, MO hosts a Buy.com event.  He's done quite a few courses overseas.

[Scott_Burroughs]

Tom,
    What do you mean you were "signed up" to do that project?  Did they tell you you had been "fired" from it and they chose RTJ, Jr.?  Or did time pass and they changed their mind w/o telling you?

     You were also supposed to be the architect for Old Head?  What happened there?  What a waste.

[Ran Morrissett]

The three RTJ Jr. courses that I have played (The National in Oz, Joondalup, and Spanish Bay) are all visually striking, original and memorable with some bold/daring features, especially green contours. All three are well suited for match play but still, I wouldn't want to play any of them on a weekly basis.

He was well on his way to doing something special at The National (I like his routing over the difficult property)  but he couldn't help himself and several of the greens have to be seen to be believed. Spectacular yes, but they can turn into goofy golf in the general windy conditions on the Mornington Peninsula.

Overall, I reckon he possesses a genuine artistic flair (the most within his famous family) but absent more subtle features, his courses don't harken me back but so often.

[Will E]

Ran,
What did you think RTJ Jr's book?

Tim,
You're right, he probably is the "biggest" name here that is ignored for the most part. Unless I've missed it I don't recall much discussion regarding Bob Cupp or Gordon Lewis either. Both of these guys have had some high end work lately as well.

I've only seen a few of RTJ Jr's courses and I've liked (not loved) his work.
Windsor in Vero Beach is well designed for the windy conditions and the development must be seen to believed.
The Orchards outside of Detroit is probably the best public course in the metro area, I haven't seen Shepard's Hollow (Hills) but would bet the Orchards is superior.
Kennisington in Naples has a few greens that need to be blown up, otherwise it has some very creative bunkering and for the most part works well.

[Tommy_Naccarato]

Tom Doak,
Unfortunate, very unfortunate, and very disappointing.

But I look at it this way: If they are stupid enough to not use the designer of Golf's Latest Greatest, then they weren't the clients to be working with.

RTJ II? How passe'!

I will give a list of some of the worst Bobby courses i have played.

-Links at Monarch Beach--Shares the distinction of being on a property similar to Pelican Hill with golf holes that truely do make Pelican Hill look like Pebble Beach of the South.

My Doak Rating--1

-The Bridges At Rancho Sante Fe--the front nine started off like the Prince Course. Loaded with all kinds of fauna to catch eventhe best of shots and reander them lost forever. Some of the best looking RTJ II bunkering ever--all in the wrong places. I was ready to go back to the clubhouse to relax in that locker room and watch one of the 150 TV's while taking a jaccuzzi. Realized I couldn't do that because I was there for my National Ranking Panel, so I had to finish the back nine:)  While it had some good holes, (The 10th--Just because the way it hugged that hill; maybe 11 & 17, the rest of it was BBB.) (That's "Del-Speak" for Boring Beyond Belief) (See Del, I don't forget everything!)

My Doak Scale Rating--2.5  (the clubhouse is a 20)

Coto De Caza-North--I remember at one time, I actually thought this was good golf architecture. Great setting in the most beautiful part of the Big Orange (County) About six "OK" golf holes here, and a great closing stretch that makes you wonder how GREAT it could have been if Tom Doak had stolen the project from RTJII. #18 is one of the most horrible holes in The Big Orange.

My Doak Scale Rating--3

Coto De Caza-South--[Place above text from Coto De Caza North in this section]

My Doak Scale Rating--3


-

[Jeff_Stettner]

Tommy:
Why don't you also give us a list of RTJ Jr's best work? Fair is fair, as they say (who they are I have no idea).
I happen to be a big fan of some of RTJ Jr.'s latest work. The Ridge in Auburn, CA, Eagle Point in Medford, OR and Cordevalle in the south bay (which I will play for the first time this sunday) are all winners in my book. The routings are solid, the bunkering, while not striking, doesn't inspire the same vitriolic response as his brothers and the green complexes tend to have strategy, often with an obvious safe route. I don't think that Junior has cranked out a Pacific Dunes or Sand Hills, but the quality of his work has got to be generally higher than most of his contemporaries.
While I would love to see Doak have a crack at the property in Scotland, I don't think Junior will offer a bad result.  

[Tim_Weiman]

Tommy:

We are in complete agreement.  Monarch Beach does make Pelican Hill look like the Pebble Beach of the South.

[Paul Turner]

I'm a bit surprised that RTJ Jr got the Archerfield job.  His courses in the UK, The Wisely and Celtic Manor, haven't had much impact.

I've seen parts of The Archerfield property and it looks to be basically a field, so I think a lot of earth (like Kingsbarns) will have to be shifted.  But what a location!!

Tom Doak

Did he get both planned courses there?

[SPDB]

I've played Long Island National, which alternates between very good and very bad. Some of the greens are just too severe. There are some good design concepts - a knoll type hole, as well as one hole that kind of mimics the 4th at Pine Valley, with a blind drive over a ridge, and a green that is eminently approachable via the ground (however it is a double green (which i also like since no one seems to employ this type anymore)).

[Tommy_Naccarato]

Jeff, More then likely because I haven't been to Granite Bay, Cord De Vale (sp?) and Eagle Ridge. Plus I was to tired last night to think about all of them I have played that are worthy of such compare.

I'll take a Doak course over RTJII anytime.

[David Wigler]

I have not played any of the questionable RTJ Jr. courses so I cannot compare his bad work.  Shooter is right that the Orchards is probably the best public course in SE Lower Michigan.  A solid 5 on the Doak scale.  If there were one criticism, it would be that RTJ Jr. sometimes goes over the top with artificial fairway features.

Granite Bay is actually a very fine course.  It is not at all out of place in the best 200 courses in the US built after 1960.  Again, RTJ II gets a little out of hand with some of the fairway features and several greens could use a little dynamite, but on a whole, this is a fine effort.

Either one of those courses is superior to any of the work I have seen done by his more famous brother Rees.

[Tim_Weiman]

David Wigler:

Maybe you could start a "Rees vs Jr" thread.

[THuckaby2]

I'll take a Doak course over RTJII anytime.

The Legends-Heathlands over Princeville Prince, not to mention that special course where a deer followed you around for the Langley-arranged free round?

Careful with the absolutes, Tommy!  

TH

[redanman (Guest)]

I've always said nice things about Ute Creek north of Denver.  I don't remember Doug saying that he'd played it.

It's as good as most all of Fazio's work, save the Galloway, World Woods and Victorias.

Is that Fazio-bashing?

[Tim_Weiman]

Redanman:

Are you asking me for an official ruling?

[redanman (Guest)]

why not.

[Doug Wright]

Mr. Redanman,

Nope haven't played Ute Creek yet--unfortunately got snowed out last fall on a planned Mad Russian (the Painswick of the West)--Ute Creek double dip. I see you've got Ute rated in the second decile, which is pretty high praise indeed! I'll check it out.

[Tim_Weiman]

Redanman:

I decided to recuse myself on the basis of seeing too much of Fazio's work east of Colorado.

The question was put to a special master, an expert on all Fazio matters west of Colorado.

The final report will be made on the Golf Channel.  I don't know when.

[Tommy_Naccarato]

Tom,
Thanks for bringing that up again! I haven't had much sleep as of late, and I forgot about Spanish Bay! You had to throw a wrench in there didn't you!:)

My thoughts of SB are this. The course certainly looked good in some of those ocean front areas. Even in pictures it looks good. The master planning of the entire place was horrible--all to get the hotel close to the ocean and work with the environmental concerns.

I hate the fact that they got away from the original fescue fairways. The little environmental fences aren't a big problem for me, unless they have replaced them with bigger fences.

It is without doubt my favorite RTJ II course. For a life-changing experience it is perfect. Is the architecture perfect? Of course not. I think its main problem is with the routing. It is a good course that could have been GREAT.

[Matt_Ward]

For what it's worth ...

Among the more recent noteworthy designs of RTJ Jr I've played include the following --

LI National -- overly crafted from an old potato farm. As SPDB mentioned the greens can be a bit over-the-top.

Corde Valle -- first rate design south of San Jose. The terrain and the mixture of holes is well done. Visually stunning and enjoyable to play. Would love to play it again on my next western trek.

Southern Highlands -- could be the 2nd best course in immediate Vegas area. Extremely private layout. The course uses the rolling terrain well. Nice combination of holes -- both long and short.

Eagle Point (OR) -- played the course for the first time last year. Good layout and completely reasonable, but conditions were too soft and slow given the rolling land.

Years ago I played Spanish Bay and really liked it even if its routing is flawed (I don't share that view) asTommy N points out. Sad to hear the fescure fairways were pulled out.

Also played Sugarloaf (ME) and Desert Dunes (NV). Clearly interesting courses but so different. Arguably, Desert Dunes may be the windiest non-ocean located course in the nation. When the wind is B L O W I N G there you can routinely have a 4-5 club wind.

I wonder if anyone has played many of his earlier designs which were overseas. Has there been any changes between those and the ones he's involved with today?

[David Wigler]

Matt,

I had thought that Southern Highlands was Rees not RTJ Jr.  In fact, it was the course that left me with the impression that Rees had considerable upside because it is actually a very nice golf course.  I think it is 3rd in the area (Behind Shadow Creek and Southshore) but that is splitting hairs.  Given that Jr. did that course in addition to Granite Bay and Orchards, I must say that I am very impressed with the work of his that I have seen

[Craig Van Egmond]

Excellent question, there really are a number of architects that don't get much discussion here. I guess RTJ Jr doesn't invoke the passion that Rees does.  I have played a number of his courses: Dove Valley, Las Sendas, Heron Lakes, Spanish Bay, Makena North, Princeville Prince, Tierra Del Sol and Chateau Whistler.   My opinions run to extremes, I absolutely love Las Sendas and play it whenever I can and I absolutely hate Chateau Whistler. For the most part I think he builds solid courses, that require you to think and creates some interesting greens.

I probably wouldn't seek out a course just because its a RTJ Jr course but if I also wouldn't avoid it.