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Ben Voelker

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Hiawatha Landing Report
« on: September 06, 2011, 01:11:36 PM »
I stopped on the way back to NJ on a Labor Day road trip for a round at Hiawatha Landing near Binghamton, NY.  I haven't seen too much commentary on the course, so I wanted to leave my thoughts  and hear what others think of the place.  The weather was horrible, so unfortunately I don't have any photos to post.

I thought the course was pretty solid apart from the Florida-style lake holes on both the front and back a la Bay Hill or Doral (5,6 and 7 on the front. 17 and 18 on the back).  They weren't horrible holes individually, but seemed out of character and were too similar.

I think a number of the par 4s were good strategic holes, a few highlights below:

#2 395 par 4 provided a nice cape style tee shot left-to-right with a bit of visual deception.  Bunker left suggests this is the proper approach angle when really far right in the FW provides the best look at the green

#8 413 par 4 is a straight par 4 that has some nice movement around the lone FW bunker.  Drive near the bunker really opens up the green for the approach.

#10 355 par 4 was probably my favorite hole on the course.  A 3-wood off the tee would be the right play, except the FW moves far enough right to create a horrible angle into the green.  Its tempting to attempt to carry the FW bunker straight at the green for a short approach with a full view of the green.  Its also easy to deposit said driver in the that trap as well, which I now know from experience.

#11 386 par 4 is a good, bunkerless par 4 with a great greensite that could use some short grass around it.  The green is perched up on a hill 30 feet above the fairway and the fairway curls around a large grove of trees.  These are basically the only trees in play on the course, but I thought they were used well.

#16 446/408 par 4 is a good risk reward par 4.  If one can carry the bunkers straight at the green (maybe 230ish carry) the hole is shortened significantly with a great angle at the green.  Otherwise, it becomes a long dogleg left with a bad angle for the approach.

There were a couple of other 4's I liked quite a bit, but I thought the 3's and 5's were generally underwhelming.

Its an easy walk and relatively inexpensive ($60 walking on the holiday afternoon).  I would argue its worth playing if in the area, but probably not worth going much more than an hour out of the way.  I have not played any other golf in New York state and couldn't comment on whether it is more worthy than other courses in the general vicinity.

What does the treehouse think?

John Foley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Hiawatha Landing Report
« Reply #1 on: September 06, 2011, 01:31:16 PM »
Huge fan of Hiawatha!!

I hear you about the water / lakes - especially #18! That given it is a rock-solid course.

You bring out some great holes, I love the long par 3 #6 with the chipping area to the left & water right, the par 5 11th with it's serpentine fairway and raised green the uphill par 3 12th to a tough green to hit.

Lots of favorites out there.
« Last Edit: September 06, 2011, 02:03:59 PM by john_foley »
Integrity in the moment of choice

David Cronheim

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Re: Hiawatha Landing Report
« Reply #2 on: September 06, 2011, 01:47:10 PM »
Never played Hiawatha, but I can say that the golf in that part of the world is pretty lacking. I went to Cornell for college and for law school and there really aren't a lot of good courses in that Scranton to Syracuse corridor. The Turning Stone courses are pretty good, but so ridiculously overpriced it's not worth the time.

I am a big fan of Cornell's course, the Robert Trent Jones Club. It's quite a challenging and interesting layout. The back nine was one of RTJ's first course designs. It has big, sloping greens and requires you to shape your tee shots to keep the ball in play. If anyone's ever up in that neck of the woods (Ithaca), it's worth a play. I'd be happy to give you an introduction to get you on there. Much like at the Course at Yale in previous years, maintenance is a bit of an issue sometimes, but the greens are always in good shape.
Check out my golf law blog - Tee, Esq.

Jay Flemma

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Hiawatha Landing Report
« Reply #3 on: September 06, 2011, 01:55:02 PM »
I've always liked Hiawatha.  Mark built me a punchbowl at 11," Silva said to me when I wrote about it a few years ago.  It's mild, but it's a great hole.  I love the par-5s there except 18.  I have no prob w/7 at the water on the right is the river that borders the property and there is an excellent center line bunker to be avoided.  Yes, the par-4s are excellent, especially 16 where if you carry the cross bunker you have 120-150 in...if you play short or wide of it 180-215.  Great hole, best on the course.

Most importantly, it's cheap!  Still $55 to play I think...
Mackenzie, MacRayBanks, Maxwell, Doak, Dye, Strantz. @JayGolfUSA, GNN Radio Host of Jay's Plays www.cybergolf.com/writerscorner

Brad Tufts

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Re: Hiawatha Landing Report
« Reply #4 on: September 06, 2011, 02:06:39 PM »
I agree with all that has been said.  A decent if unspectacular track.

I remember in my only round there in October of 2008, the lake on #18 was dry.  I hooked my ball into the middle of it, walked down there, found my ball, and hit it up on the green.  It was a straight hole for me that day!
So I jump ship in Hong Kong....

Jay Flemma

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Hiawatha Landing Report
« Reply #5 on: September 06, 2011, 02:19:08 PM »
Brad you ought to try it on Thanxgiving when the lake is frozen and people drive the green playing bounces off the ice!
Mackenzie, MacRayBanks, Maxwell, Doak, Dye, Strantz. @JayGolfUSA, GNN Radio Host of Jay's Plays www.cybergolf.com/writerscorner

Dan Boerger

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Re: Hiawatha Landing Report
« Reply #6 on: September 06, 2011, 02:33:31 PM »
David - Three courses "loosely" in that corridor that I would play long before I paid for a round at the Turning Stone are: Yahnundasis, Teugega and Seven Oaks. All very interesting tracks IMO with some real variety.
"Man should practice moderation in all things, including moderation."  Mark Twain

David Cronheim

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Hiawatha Landing Report
« Reply #7 on: September 06, 2011, 03:31:35 PM »
David - Three courses "loosely" in that corridor that I would play long before I paid for a round at the Turning Stone are: Yahnundasis, Teugega and Seven Oaks. All very interesting tracks IMO with some real variety.

Seven Oaks is a nice track I'm told - Colgate's home course and another RTJ design. My brother qualified for the US Am at Pinehurst there and always spoke quite highly of the course.
Check out my golf law blog - Tee, Esq.

Ronald Montesano

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Re: Hiawatha Landing Report
« Reply #8 on: September 06, 2011, 09:13:30 PM »
Seven Oaks is better than Cornell...neither is in league with Yale, which is out of this world good.

I played LAHL about ten years ago, when BuffaloGolfer was in its fledgling state...I'd like to get back to see how I and it have changed.
Coming in 2024
~Elmira Country Club
~Soaring Eagles
~Bonavista
~Indian Hills
~Maybe some more!!

Mike Sweeney

Re: Hiawatha Landing Report
« Reply #9 on: September 06, 2011, 11:27:54 PM »
Played it once, probably the definition of a Doak 4:

4. A modestly interesting course, with a couple of distinctive holes among the 18, or at least some scenic interest and decent golf. Also reserved for some very good courses that are much too short and narrow to provide sufficient challenge for accomplished golfers.

Jay Flemma

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Hiawatha Landing Report
« Reply #10 on: September 07, 2011, 10:49:42 AM »
More like a Doak 6.  Worth a trip to see the highlights, which are exzcellent.  And it has some character.  Plus you can't beat the price.  Certainly much stronger than Seven Oaks which has maybe nine good holes at best.
Mackenzie, MacRayBanks, Maxwell, Doak, Dye, Strantz. @JayGolfUSA, GNN Radio Host of Jay's Plays www.cybergolf.com/writerscorner

Ben Voelker

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Hiawatha Landing Report
« Reply #11 on: September 07, 2011, 12:23:51 PM »
More like a Doak 6.  Worth a trip to see the highlights, which are exzcellent.  And it has some character.  Plus you can't beat the price.  Certainly much stronger than Seven Oaks which has maybe nine good holes at best.

Jay,

Do you have the definition of a Doak 6?  I thought 4 sounded about right, maybe a little low.  I guess that means I think its a 5!

John Foley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Hiawatha Landing Report
« Reply #12 on: September 08, 2011, 09:23:04 AM »
The Binghamton area is getting hammered with flooding due to the remnants of Lee which does not bode well for Hiawatha.

They had some severe flooding in the past (2000 & 2006 I believe) and from the looks of things this could be a tough one.
Integrity in the moment of choice

Michael Ryan

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Hiawatha Landing Report
« Reply #13 on: September 08, 2011, 10:28:36 AM »
I made my only appearance in the NY State Amateur in '96 at Hiawatha.  I found the Links to be a good competitive test and in great shape.  I missed the stroke play cut by about 3, thought it set up to be a great match play venue with holes like 18 having a great risk/reward aspect.  Would love to go back and play a casual round there. 

Mike

Ben Voelker

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Hiawatha Landing Report
« Reply #14 on: September 08, 2011, 10:42:16 AM »
The Binghamton area is getting hammered with flooding due to the remnants of Lee which does not bode well for Hiawatha.

They had some severe flooding in the past (2000 & 2006 I believe) and from the looks of things this could be a tough one.

John,

I played on Monday and it rained consistently the entire round.  By the time I left, there was lots of standing water and it has rained more over the past 3 days here in Northern NJ, probably not much different in Binghamton.  I am sure the course is suffering by now.

JNC Lyon

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Hiawatha Landing Report
« Reply #15 on: September 08, 2011, 10:09:43 PM »
More like a Doak 6.  Worth a trip to see the highlights, which are exzcellent.  And it has some character.  Plus you can't beat the price.  Certainly much stronger than Seven Oaks which has maybe nine good holes at best.

Jay, when was the last time you played Seven Oaks?  They've done a ton of tree work over the last few years--it has improved immensely, and there are only a couple weak holes there now.  Plus,  Forse/Nagle have a plan in the works.

Hiawatha...hmmm...I know some are fans of the golf course.  I definitely liked a few holes, particularly 2, 4, 8, 10-12, and 16.  But there is a lot of boring stuff out there.  The lake holes are snoozers (I actually liked 18, but the others are trash), and there are several holes out there that are just plain boring.  14 is an example: it's set on a pretty cool piece of property, with a gracefully sloping fairway leading down to a serene pond, but the bunkering and the green are without any imagination.  1 is another question mark as an opening hole.  There are several spots where the architects could have employed strategy and options, but they decided instead to go for aesthetics.  I feel like I'm talking about a Fazio course, but, remarkably, it's a Silva/Mungeam.

Scranton to Syracuse corridor?  Seven Oaks is definitely the play there in terms of public courses.  New tree removal has created some great width, especially on the short fours at 13 and 17, which are now the two best holes on the golf course.  1 and 2 are rugged, maddening opening holes.  The fives tempt in their own ways, and there are some wicked greens.  Bottom line, Seven Oaks is only going to get better, and it is already one of my favorite public courses in the region.

Of course, Leatherstocking is the best course in Central New York (and probably Upstate New York, for that matter), and that is stop #1 if you are in the vicinity.  Teugega is a blast too, and with an incredible set of Ross greens.  Since it's a low key private club in Rome, New York, it is fairly easy to get on.

Public courses in Upstate New York I would play ahead of Turning Stone:
Leatherstocking
Thendara
Seven Oaks
Greystone
Ravenwood
Links at Hiawatha Landing
Deerfield
Byrncliff
Mill Creek
etc. etc. etc.  If you love GCA...you can skip Turning Stone.
"That's why Oscar can't see that!" - Philip E. "Timmy" Thomas

Mike Sweeney

Re: Hiawatha Landing Report
« Reply #16 on: September 08, 2011, 10:21:30 PM »
I feel like I'm talking about a Fazio course, but, remarkably, it's a Silva/Mungeam.

Scranton to Syracuse corridor?  Seven Oaks is definitely the play there in terms of public courses. 

Hiawatha was created when they were partners from a business perspective, but my understanding is that Silva was not involved in Hiawatha.

I believe that we have a Seven Oaks member who post here. I have not been there in years but Seven Oaks/Colgate easily edges out Cornell GC (technically private but ....) and Cornell blows away Hiawatha.

Jay Flemma,


Seriously, what courses would you rank as a "Doak 4"?

John Foley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Hiawatha Landing Report
« Reply #17 on: September 09, 2011, 09:25:38 AM »
Cornell blows away Hiawatha.


Mike - really?? There can be any partisan speak in that comment huh ;)

Looks like I have  some feild work to do as i like Hiawatha a lot!
Integrity in the moment of choice

John Foley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Hiawatha Landing Report
« Reply #18 on: September 09, 2011, 09:38:41 AM »

Hiawatha...hmmm...I know some are fans of the golf course.  I definitely liked a few holes, particularly 2, 4, 8, 10-12, and 16.  But there is a lot of boring stuff out there.  The lake holes are snoozers (I actually liked 18, but the others are trash), and there are several holes out there that are just plain boring.  14 is an example: it's set on a pretty cool piece of property, with a gracefully sloping fairway leading down to a serene pond, but the bunkering and the green are without any imagination.  1 is another question mark as an opening hole.  There are several spots where the architects could have employed strategy and options, but they decided instead to go for aesthetics.  I feel like I'm talking about a Fazio course, but, remarkably, it's a Silva/Mungeam.

Scranton to Syracuse corridor?  Seven Oaks is definitely the play there in terms of public courses.  New tree removal has created some great width, especially on the short fours at 13 and 17, which are now the two best holes on the golf course.  1 and 2 are rugged, maddening opening holes.  The fives tempt in their own ways, and there are some wicked greens.  Bottom line, Seven Oaks is only going to get better, and it is already one of my favorite public courses in the region.



Of course, Leatherstocking is the best course in Central New York (and probably Upstate New York, for that matter), and that is stop #1 if you are in the vicinity.  Teugega is a blast too, and with an incredible set of Ross greens.  Since it's a low key private club in Rome, New York, it is fairly easy to get on.

Public courses in Upstate New York I would play ahead of Turning Stone:
Leatherstocking
Thendara
Seven Oaks
Greystone
Ravenwood
Links at Hiawatha Landing
Deerfield
Byrncliff
Mill Creek
etc. etc. etc.  If you love GCA...you can skip Turning Stone.

John -

A few points on Hiawatha

#1 is a great opener - with strategy galore! Cut the left side bunker off the tee hit the FW youve got SW. Pin is up front before the ridge it's got birdie written all over it. Miss your drive left or right or go over the green your walking to the 2nd tee 3 over!!

#5 - No love for the chipping area? I think it's the best feature on the course.

#9 is a very good reachable 5 - just hit he fw - but it plays into a mostly prevailing crosswind - angle is awkward. Go for the green and not execute it there is trouble around. I like how the green cants subtle away L-R with a fairway that runs R-L

#13 is a tough uphill par 3 - no love?

#14 would be better if it was driveable - not for me though.

I actually like #17 more & more now given the diverse way it can play from the multiple tee's. Especially where it sits in the routing - it is an exacting hole

Agreed on #16
Integrity in the moment of choice

JNC Lyon

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Hiawatha Landing Report
« Reply #19 on: September 10, 2011, 08:18:02 AM »
John,

I like 9--The bunker complex short right of the green is well done, and there is a good bunker short left that guards the best angle in.  However, a few others I don't like so much.  1?  I guess I didn't get that hole.  To me, it seemed like a straightforward, shorter par four to get you into the round.  Cutting off the dogleg to gain the shorter route home?  That's not really strategy--it's just basic math.  Moreover, going left doesn't give you a great angle.  That matters if you are a short hitter who can't carry the bunker, but it doesn't matter if you can carry the bunker.  Thus, the long hitter has only one option (go left) and the short hitter has only one option (stay right).  I guess the green is cool, but I'd need another play to really remember it well.

I remember liking, but not loving, the uphill par three at 13.  It's cool, but I feel like I've seen that hole a million times.  17?  A long par three with water on one side, which is a decent hole in a vacuum, but very cliche at that stage in the round.

My favorite holes are 15 (forgot this one first time around) and 16.  Here, the options are front and center, and the angles are very well done.  The fairway bunkers match up perfectly with the ideal angle of attack, and there is plenty of room to allow for an array of options.  I just wish the architects could have executed these types of holes on the rest of the golf course.

Ultimately, I think Hiawatha is a decent public course, but it is not nearly as compelling as some other courses in the region (Leatherstocking, Thendara, a constantly improving Seven Oaks, Ravenwood, and, of course, Greystone).
"That's why Oscar can't see that!" - Philip E. "Timmy" Thomas

Jay Flemma

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Hiawatha Landing Report
« Reply #20 on: September 10, 2011, 09:50:14 AM »
More like a Doak 6.  Worth a trip to see the highlights, which are exzcellent.  And it has some character.  Plus you can't beat the price.  Certainly much stronger than Seven Oaks which has maybe nine good holes at best.

Jay, when was the last time you played Seven Oaks?  They've done a ton of tree work over the last few years--it has improved immensely, and there are only a couple weak holes there now.  Plus,  Forse/Nagle have a plan in the works.

Hiawatha...hmmm...I know some are fans of the golf course.  I definitely liked a few holes, particularly 2, 4, 8, 10-12, and 16.  But there is a lot of boring stuff out there.  The lake holes are snoozers (I actually liked 18, but the others are trash), and there are several holes out there that are just plain boring.  14 is an example: it's set on a pretty cool piece of property, with a gracefully sloping fairway leading down to a serene pond, but the bunkering and the green are without any imagination.  1 is another question mark as an opening hole.  There are several spots where the architects could have employed strategy and options, but they decided instead to go for aesthetics.  I feel like I'm talking about a Fazio course, but, remarkably, it's a Silva/Mungeam.

Scranton to Syracuse corridor?  Seven Oaks is definitely the play there in terms of public courses.  New tree removal has created some great width, especially on the short fours at 13 and 17, which are now the two best holes on the golf course.  1 and 2 are rugged, maddening opening holes.  The fives tempt in their own ways, and there are some wicked greens.  Bottom line, Seven Oaks is only going to get better, and it is already one of my favorite public courses in the region.

Of course, Leatherstocking is the best course in Central New York (and probably Upstate New York, for that matter), and that is stop #1 if you are in the vicinity.  Teugega is a blast too, and with an incredible set of Ross greens.  Since it's a low key private club in Rome, New York, it is fairly easy to get on.

Public courses in Upstate New York I would play ahead of Turning Stone:
Leatherstocking
Thendara
Seven Oaks
Greystone
Ravenwood
Links at Hiawatha Landing
Deerfield
Byrncliff
Mill Creek
etc. etc. etc.  If you love GCA...you can skip Turning Stone.

Totally agree on Turning Stone - three courses, no good holes, some ridiculous garbage like a 400 yard walk to play a hole side by side and in the same excat firection so you get to see the casino more.  Lunacy.

I'll be curious to see what Forse does at Seven Oaks,  but the trees aren't the problem, the design is.  It's Jones and penal architecture.

As for HL - I played in a tournamrnt there one year when they had back to back days of 3 inches of rain.  The river flooded and they cut us short at 30 holes out of 36.  You and I really differ on the holes - I like 1 (carry the bunker or play ro the right - risk reward - carry the bunker for a better angle.  I like 2-3, but not 4.  Too narrow.  I don't have  problem with 5, but 6 isn't my cup of tee.  I dont understand why more people don't like 7, it's just fine.  9 is one of my faves, so is 12.  14 is drivable, but barely.  If it were shorter it would work better.

We should play next week.  I'll b e home celebrating my b-day with my family.
Mackenzie, MacRayBanks, Maxwell, Doak, Dye, Strantz. @JayGolfUSA, GNN Radio Host of Jay's Plays www.cybergolf.com/writerscorner

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