I'm done with doglegs...and going back to vegetables.

[paul cowley]

I think I'm done with fixed point design strategies...mainly to accommodate the new world of 'pick a line and hit it' players. Having to deal with distance inequities and straight ball flight have conspired to make 'shaping ones shot' designs mostly history. Double doglegs have become lightning pattern diagrams.

I'm going back to bananas (with a curving parallel hazard), maybe a crookneck squash (with a sequoia or two in the neck), and various forms of pole beans of good length for inspiration. I'm not going to draw turn points any more, and instead I'm going to break out the old french curve templates and measure distance along a curving center line.

I doubt most will notice a difference...

[Bill_McBride]

Paul, what are you going to do about ProV1s and modern drivers that make it difficult to work the ball?

I love your idea, but guys no longer hit fairway woods off the tee, the driver is the straightest club in their bag.   

How does that affect your plan?

[Colin Macqueen]

Gentlemen,

To quote Bill ".....ProV1s and modern drivers that make it difficult to work the ball?"  and "....the driver is the straightest club in their bag."
So, just out of interest do you top players out there now find it much more difficult to shape tee shots with the ProV1 and modern drivers? Or are you just that good!
Presumably that is what you would have to do to deal with Paul's "french curve templates" and I reckon the game would be better for it.

Cheers Colin

[Steve Kline]

Generally I find it harder to draw the ball now than before. Fading is still pretty easy. But, i can't get it to go as much in either direction as years ago.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Increased spin rates is a possible, partial answer.

[Garland Bayley]

...
I love your idea, but guys no longer hit fairway woods off the tee, the driver is the straightest club in their bag.   
...

Is there any scientific study that supports this. The driver certainly isn't the straightest club in my bag. It seems to me the tour pros will hit a fairway metal or hybrid when they want to hit it straight. So what realistic evidence is there that "the driver is the straightest club in their bag"?

[Peter Pallotta]

Gentle curves, Paul. The course I consider my home is a modest 1960s affair on a relatively flat farmers field, and it has matured nicely and is maintained well - and hole after hole is characterized by slight and gradual turns to the right or to the left, with fairway room running out here, an approach angle slightly compromised there, a single green-side bunker giving a fade or a draw off the tee an  advantage here and there. To continue your analogy, it's real "bread and butter" stuff -- but it works well with the new technology...and in fact, I'd guess that it works better now than it did when first designed.

Peter

[Bill_McBride]

...
I love your idea, but guys no longer hit fairway woods off the tee, the driver is the straightest club in their bag.   
...

Is there any scientific study that supports this. The driver certainly isn't the straightest club in my bag. It seems to me the tour pros will hit a fairway metal or hybrid when they want to hit it straight. So what realistic evidence is there that "the driver is the straightest club in their bag"?

Watch some golf.   They only hit hybrid off the tee to be short of a hazard.  Some of the wilder guys will hit FW off the tee in situations, but the longer guys are way out there with 3W off the tee. 

My real reference was to amateurs, who almost to a man say the driver is the straightest club in their bag.  Sidespin has been designed out of balls and drivers. 

Maybe you need a couple of lessons. 

[Garland Bayley]

Watch some golf.   They only hit hybrid off the tee to be short of a hazard.  Some of the wilder guys will hit FW off the tee in situations, but the longer guys are way out there with 3W off the tee. 

That sentence says to me that the straighter players trust their driver to go straight, and that the wilder players have to hit FW to be straight when need be, which supports my statement.

My real reference was to amateurs, who almost to a man say the driver is the straightest club in their bag. 

I can see how the low spinning ball and higher lofted drivers used with it can make their drivers significantly straighter than they were before. However, it seems to me that physics would say that the higher lofted clubs will still be straighter than driver. What a person says and what can be shown empirically are not the same thing.

Sidespin has been designed out of balls and drivers. 

The USGA has already legislated against balls that have sidespin designed out. So if a ball has sidespin designed out, then it is illegal. How would one design sidespin out of a driver. That is something I have never heard of before. Do you mean high MOI has a small effect on limiting sidespin?

Maybe you need a couple of lessons. 

The lessons I need are from a shrink.

[Bill_McBride]

Watch some golf.   They only hit hybrid off the tee to be short of a hazard.  Some of the wilder guys will hit FW off the tee in situations, but the longer guys are way out there with 3W off the tee. 

That sentence says to me that the straighter players trust their driver to go straight, and that the wilder players have to hit FW to be straight when need be, which supports my statement.

My real reference was to amateurs, who almost to a man say the driver is the straightest club in their bag. 

I can see how the low spinning ball and higher lofted drivers used with it can make their drivers significantly straighter than they were before. However, it seems to me that physics would say that the higher lofted clubs will still be straighter than driver. What a person says and what can be shown empirically are not the same thing.

Sidespin has been designed out of balls and drivers. 

The USGA has already legislated against balls that have sidespin designed out. So if a ball has sidespin designed out, then it is illegal. How would one design sidespin out of a driver. That is something I have never heard of before. Do you mean high MOI has a small effect on limiting sidespin?

Maybe you need a couple of lessons. 

The lessons I need are from a shrink.

The gear effect has been most pronounced on drivers for generations.   The perimeter weighting of drivers has only enhanced the ball flight straightening characteristics.  I have absolutely no scientific evidence for any of this, just fifty years of watching golf and playing with good players.   I do know it's a lot easier to draw or fade a 3W than a driver, so a lot of players will hit a 3W if they want to shape a shot. 

[paul cowley]

Interesting guys - one reason for this thread was that while doing plans for a remodel of a short dogleg t 4 that is entirely bordered by 60' mature trees, I found that the longest straight shot where I could draw a center line was 235' to the middle of the fairway...and this is on a course that wants to be able to play a Tour Event. We use 300' to center line turn points on this type of setup.

Instead of drawing a center line that would go through the trees, I've decided to draw a 300 yd curve that bends about 35 yds to the right....not the first time this has occurred btw.

[Greg Tallman]

Interesting guys - one reason for this thread was that while doing plans for a remodel of a short dogleg t 4 that is entirely bordered by 60' mature trees, I found that the longest straight shot where I could draw a center line was 235' to the middle of the fairway...and this is on a course that wants to be able to play a Tour Event. We use 300' to center line turn points on this type of setup.

Instead of drawing a center line that would go through the trees, I've decided to draw a 300 yd curve that bends about 35 yds to the right....not the first time this has occurred btw.

You need to use 3D imagery showing the over the trees route... come on.

[Garland Bayley]

Watch some golf.   They only hit hybrid off the tee to be short of a hazard.  Some of the wilder guys will hit FW off the tee in situations, but the longer guys are way out there with 3W off the tee. 

That sentence says to me that the straighter players trust their driver to go straight, and that the wilder players have to hit FW to be straight when need be, which supports my statement.

My real reference was to amateurs, who almost to a man say the driver is the straightest club in their bag. 

I can see how the low spinning ball and higher lofted drivers used with it can make their drivers significantly straighter than they were before. However, it seems to me that physics would say that the higher lofted clubs will still be straighter than driver. What a person says and what can be shown empirically are not the same thing.

Sidespin has been designed out of balls and drivers. 

The USGA has already legislated against balls that have sidespin designed out. So if a ball has sidespin designed out, then it is illegal. How would one design sidespin out of a driver. That is something I have never heard of before. Do you mean high MOI has a small effect on limiting sidespin?

Maybe you need a couple of lessons. 

The lessons I need are from a shrink.

The gear effect has been most pronounced on drivers for generations. 

But, the gear effect is the opposite of what we are discussing. The gear effect is a self correcting effect and was noted probably before Old Tom's time and clubs have been designed for it for that long of a time. Since MOI reduces twisting,  logically it would seem to me that with high MOI drivers, the self correcting effect of the gear effect would be reduced. 

The perimeter weighting of drivers has only enhanced the ball flight straightening characteristics. 

Perimeter weighting adds to the MOI. My understanding is that it has enhanced the distance, but not necessarily flight straightening characteristics. Clubs with flat faces like irons will have flight straightening, because the bulge is not there to offset the gear effect.

I have absolutely no scientific evidence for any of this, just fifty years of watching golf and playing with good players.   I do know it's a lot easier to draw or fade a 3W than a driver, so a lot of players will hit a 3W if they want to shape a shot. 

That I can understand as the lower MOI of the 3W would seem to me to allow them to open or close the face more at will than with the driver.

[Peter Pallotta]

Greg - as you know, Paul doesn't limit himself to 3 dimensions....  

Peter

[Bill_McBride]

Watch some golf.   They only hit hybrid off the tee to be short of a hazard.  Some of the wilder guys will hit FW off the tee in situations, but the longer guys are way out there with 3W off the tee. 

That sentence says to me that the straighter players trust their driver to go straight, and that the wilder players have to hit FW to be straight when need be, which supports my statement.

My real reference was to amateurs, who almost to a man say the driver is the straightest club in their bag. 

I can see how the low spinning ball and higher lofted drivers used with it can make their drivers significantly straighter than they were before. However, it seems to me that physics would say that the higher lofted clubs will still be straighter than driver. What a person says and what can be shown empirically are not the same thing.

Sidespin has been designed out of balls and drivers. 

The USGA has already legislated against balls that have sidespin designed out. So if a ball has sidespin designed out, then it is illegal. How would one design sidespin out of a driver. That is something I have never heard of before. Do you mean high MOI has a small effect on limiting sidespin?

Maybe you need a couple of lessons. 

The lessons I need are from a shrink.

The gear effect has been most pronounced on drivers for generations. 

But, the gear effect is the opposite of what we are discussing. The gear effect is a self correcting effect and was noted probably before Old Tom's time and clubs have been designed for it for that long of a time. Since MOI reduces twisting,  logically it would seem to me that with high MOI drivers, the self correcting effect of the gear effect would be reduced. 

The perimeter weighting of drivers has only enhanced the ball flight straightening characteristics. 

Perimeter weighting adds to the MOI. My understanding is that it has enhanced the distance, but not necessarily flight straightening characteristics. Clubs with flat faces like irons will have flight straightening, because the bulge is not there to offset the gear effect.

I have absolutely no scientific evidence for any of this, just fifty years of watching golf and playing with good players.   I do know it's a lot easier to draw or fade a 3W than a driver, so a lot of players will hit a 3W if they want to shape a shot. 

That I can understand as the lower MOI of the 3W would seem to me to allow them to open or close the face more at will than with the driver.

I don't understand why you say "...the gear effect is the opposite of what we are discussing. The gear effect is a self correcting effect and was noted probably before Old Tom's time and clubs have been designed for it for that long of a time."    We were discussing the driver being the straightest club in the bag, and the gear effect is greatest with the driver.   Whether it's been around for a long time is irrelevant to current results.

Why do you think numerous participants here have made that statement?   I hear it all the time.

[Garland Bayley]

Watch some golf.   They only hit hybrid off the tee to be short of a hazard.  Some of the wilder guys will hit FW off the tee in situations, but the longer guys are way out there with 3W off the tee. 

That sentence says to me that the straighter players trust their driver to go straight, and that the wilder players have to hit FW to be straight when need be, which supports my statement.

My real reference was to amateurs, who almost to a man say the driver is the straightest club in their bag. 

I can see how the low spinning ball and higher lofted drivers used with it can make their drivers significantly straighter than they were before. However, it seems to me that physics would say that the higher lofted clubs will still be straighter than driver. What a person says and what can be shown empirically are not the same thing.

Sidespin has been designed out of balls and drivers. 

The USGA has already legislated against balls that have sidespin designed out. So if a ball has sidespin designed out, then it is illegal. How would one design sidespin out of a driver. That is something I have never heard of before. Do you mean high MOI has a small effect on limiting sidespin?

Maybe you need a couple of lessons. 

The lessons I need are from a shrink.

The gear effect has been most pronounced on drivers for generations. 

But, the gear effect is the opposite of what we are discussing. The gear effect is a self correcting effect and was noted probably before Old Tom's time and clubs have been designed for it for that long of a time. Since MOI reduces twisting,  logically it would seem to me that with high MOI drivers, the self correcting effect of the gear effect would be reduced. 

The perimeter weighting of drivers has only enhanced the ball flight straightening characteristics. 

Perimeter weighting adds to the MOI. My understanding is that it has enhanced the distance, but not necessarily flight straightening characteristics. Clubs with flat faces like irons will have flight straightening, because the bulge is not there to offset the gear effect.

I have absolutely no scientific evidence for any of this, just fifty years of watching golf and playing with good players.   I do know it's a lot easier to draw or fade a 3W than a driver, so a lot of players will hit a 3W if they want to shape a shot. 

That I can understand as the lower MOI of the 3W would seem to me to allow them to open or close the face more at will than with the driver.

I don't understand why you say "...the gear effect is the opposite of what we are discussing. The gear effect is a self correcting effect and was noted probably before Old Tom's time and clubs have been designed for it for that long of a time."    We were discussing the driver being the straightest club in the bag, and the gear effect is greatest with the driver.   Whether it's been around for a long time is irrelevant to current results.

Obviously I haven't measured this, but here is my explanation. We are discussing the driver being straight. The gear effect in the driver combined with the bulge of the driver has been around for well over a century to straighten drives. However, the modern driver has much higher MOI. Therefore, the twisting of the driver is smaller. Therefore, self correcting spin from the driver gear effect would not be as high, which logically to me says that modern drivers are not straighter due to the gear effect. Which is the opposite of my impression that you were claiming they were straighter due to the gear effect.

Why do you think numerous participants here have made that statement?   I hear it all the time.

I repeat my response from above.
I can see how the low spinning ball and higher lofted drivers used with it can make their drivers significantly straighter than they were before. However, it seems to me that physics would say that the higher lofted clubs will still be straighter than driver. What a person says and what can be shown empirically are not the same thing.
My explanation is that players have seen a much larger correction to their shots with driver, than they have seen with the other clubs. I believe this leads them to incorrectly conclude that they are straighter with their driver than with the other clubs. I believe most of this correction has come from 1) a low spin ball, and 2) the higher lofted drivers that are used with the low spin ball. I believe that empirical data would not hold up the claims for a driver being straighter than a 3 wood. There are club component companies building driver heads with fairway wood lofts to help players straighten out their driver shots.

[Bill_McBride]

Watch some golf.   They only hit hybrid off the tee to be short of a hazard.  Some of the wilder guys will hit FW off the tee in situations, but the longer guys are way out there with 3W off the tee. 

That sentence says to me that the straighter players trust their driver to go straight, and that the wilder players have to hit FW to be straight when need be, which supports my statement.

My real reference was to amateurs, who almost to a man say the driver is the straightest club in their bag. 

I can see how the low spinning ball and higher lofted drivers used with it can make their drivers significantly straighter than they were before. However, it seems to me that physics would say that the higher lofted clubs will still be straighter than driver. What a person says and what can be shown empirically are not the same thing.

Sidespin has been designed out of balls and drivers. 

The USGA has already legislated against balls that have sidespin designed out. So if a ball has sidespin designed out, then it is illegal. How would one design sidespin out of a driver. That is something I have never heard of before. Do you mean high MOI has a small effect on limiting sidespin?

Maybe you need a couple of lessons. 

The lessons I need are from a shrink.

The gear effect has been most pronounced on drivers for generations. 

But, the gear effect is the opposite of what we are discussing. The gear effect is a self correcting effect and was noted probably before Old Tom's time and clubs have been designed for it for that long of a time. Since MOI reduces twisting,  logically it would seem to me that with high MOI drivers, the self correcting effect of the gear effect would be reduced. 

The perimeter weighting of drivers has only enhanced the ball flight straightening characteristics. 

Perimeter weighting adds to the MOI. My understanding is that it has enhanced the distance, but not necessarily flight straightening characteristics. Clubs with flat faces like irons will have flight straightening, because the bulge is not there to offset the gear effect.

I have absolutely no scientific evidence for any of this, just fifty years of watching golf and playing with good players.   I do know it's a lot easier to draw or fade a 3W than a driver, so a lot of players will hit a 3W if they want to shape a shot. 

That I can understand as the lower MOI of the 3W would seem to me to allow them to open or close the face more at will than with the driver.

I don't understand why you say "...the gear effect is the opposite of what we are discussing. The gear effect is a self correcting effect and was noted probably before Old Tom's time and clubs have been designed for it for that long of a time."    We were discussing the driver being the straightest club in the bag, and the gear effect is greatest with the driver.   Whether it's been around for a long time is irrelevant to current results.

Obviously I haven't measured this, but here is my explanation. We are discussing the driver being straight. The gear effect in the driver combined with the bulge of the driver has been around for well over a century to straighten drives. However, the modern driver has much higher MOI. Therefore, the twisting of the driver is smaller. Therefore, self correcting spin from the driver gear effect would not be as high, which logically to me says that modern drivers are not straighter due to the gear effect. Which is the opposite of my impression that you were claiming they were straighter due to the gear effect.

Why do you think numerous participants here have made that statement?   I hear it all the time.

I repeat my response from above.
I can see how the low spinning ball and higher lofted drivers used with it can make their drivers significantly straighter than they were before. However, it seems to me that physics would say that the higher lofted clubs will still be straighter than driver. What a person says and what can be shown empirically are not the same thing.
My explanation is that players have seen a much larger correction to their shots with driver, than they have seen with the other clubs. I believe this leads them to incorrectly conclude that they are straighter with their driver than with the other clubs. I believe most of this correction has come from 1) a low spin ball, and 2) the higher lofted drivers that are used with the low spin ball. I believe that empirical data would not hold up the claims for a driver being straighter than a 3 wood. There are club component companies building driver heads with fairway wood lofts to help players straighten out their driver shots.

Time for a nap, I'm exhausted!

[Garland Bayley]

...
My real reference was to amateurs, who almost to a man say the driver is the straightest club in their bag.  Sidespin has been designed out of balls and drivers. 
... 

Here's someone not named Kalen or Garland that admits the driver is not the straightest club in the bag.

My driver is by far the wildest club in my bag, but I also hit it a long way, and my wedge game is finally kinda back from the dead -- but it does my no good if I'm finding hazards or trees.  So every hole presents a strategic choice for me, and even at my home course, I probably walk up to 80% of the non-par-3 tees with two clubs (driver and the layup option) in my hand.  Thankfully I haven't started talking to myself yet.